Anti-KHL Discourse

[loppa*]

There has been much anti-KHL discourse. So I dedicate this topic to that.

In general I feel that much of the anti-KHL discourse is wrong.


But for example, today an article came out, https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/khl-goes-from-threat-to-nyet-for-nhl-150317197.html , and it's such file garbage. I go wtf, what on earth is the guy thinking? So, What are your guys opinions on such matters? Am I the only one who seems to think that there is irrational hatred floating round, or what?

Also, I would say that the biggest hatred comes from north america. Many north-americans prefer the non-northamerican world to be a sort of lapdog for NHL interests. They are angry that the KHL exists because it makes it that countries such as Russia (and others) are no longer there for their usage and exploitation. It puts a thorn in the side of the bloated snob (NHL).

Click to read more...

 

[ozo]

Where do you see any hatred or anger of any sorts in that article? It more or less is a very fair assessment of the league from NHL centric point of view. Author even acknowledges that KHL was a threat of some sort in the first place, which I'm pretty strongly disagreeing with. In my eyes, KHL in long term is attractive only to a very specific demographic of NHL player pool - Russian speaking players. It sucks to loose Kovy, every NHL fan will admit that, but in reality it doesn't mean a whole lot to either of leagues. No matter how hard I look at that article all facts ring true to me (well the exit of Donbass isn't strictly a money issue), last years finalist went bust (so it a second team that has made final in 6 seasons that is no more), Lehtera (or was it Kontiola?) paid a 500K out of his pocket just to cross the pond, every single Russian kid still says that NHL is the ultimate dream and so on, and NHL is making more money than ever before. Or maybe you can elaborate more and provide some actual proof of hatred in that article?

 

[ozo]

If anything, NHL clubs show waaay to much respect to KHL, which is clearly evident by the numbers of Russian draftees per year. If NHL icetime would be guaranteed and the salary equivalent to the one they can receive in Russia vast majority of Russian players (of course there are Kovy-sized execptions) would still play in NHL. And your average NHL fan simply doesn't care about KHL at all.

 

[turk96]

Yeah, I agree that I don't see any vitriol towards the KHL in that article. The facts are there. I've personally been rooting for the KHL to succeed. I fell in love with the Russian Super League during the strike years back and watched all the KHL I can find since the last NHL lockout. I also want to see the KHL make it in other markets than Russia since (not to get into politics) I will only attend KHL games outside of Russia. I attended two Lev Praha games last year when on vacation and found it a great experience. But, contrary to those defending Lev's demise as a good thing on the other thread, I can't see how you can paint the KHL being unable to survive in Prague as anything but a black eye for the league and a sign of it's financial mismanagement. I also don't see how you can accuse the NHL of "exploiting" players. They are highly compensated to come play in what is by far the best hockey league in the world. Maybe it's saddening to the local fans to see their stars leave for the greener pastures of the NHL, but the choice is their's.

I wish the KHL well. I would love to see it become a legitimate European super league. But the recent bumbling of this league has me very doubtful it has any chance of becoming anything more than a minor annoyance to the NHL, let alone any kind of threat.

 

[ozo]

But the recent bumbling of this league has me very doubtful it has any chance of becoming anything more than a minor annoyance to the NHL, let alone any kind of threat.

Good post overall, but I would like to expand a bit on quoted part. In order to become a a real threat KHL not only need more than handful really wealthy (and actually self-sufficient, but that, of course, is a pipe dream) teams. KHL is such wild and imbalanced league that your average NA fan or journalist couldn't even grasp. And by that I mean that KHL hasn't at no point been a threat of it's own. All the so called damage to NHL authority has been inflicted a couple of teams like SKA, Ufa or Kazan and not the league as an organization. Is Dinamo Riga a threat to even poorest of NHL team, that will have player budget of 50 million dollars next year minimum? Same for Novokuznetsk, Cherepovets, Zagreb, Khabarovsk and so on. As I said KHL still has a lot of mystique going on for it, thus it looks like a meaner beast than it actually is. That article actually gives too much credit to the K.

 

[Medo]

It doesn't need to be threat to the NHL in order to be great. Two leagues can coexist just fine. There's plenty of talent out there.

 

[TollefsenFan]

Couldnt agree more.

One example of american arroganse is this minor and major League thing. NHL is the only major League. All the others Leagues are minor.

In Soccer we have the big 5 Leagues (Premier League, Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga and Ligue 1) and thats it. British People dnt Call Eredsdivisie a minor League.

 

[turk96]

It's kind of a catch 22 situation. In my opinion, the KHL is desperately in need of revenue sharing to even the playing field, but the league just isn't set up that way. Even if the super rich teams would agree to such a thing (and they won't) and the logistics worked out, then you have no more teams that have the economic power to pry players away from the NHL. And even now, other than Kovalchuk, who did it more for personal reasons, what major coups has the KHL pulled off? Radulov was practically kicked out of the NHL. Hopefully, being a threat to the NHL isn't what will set the standard for success for the KHL.

I guess the most disheartening thing I see about the KHL is franchises that last only a season or two. That's a major bad sign. I suppose I should try to get over to Finland and see Jokerit before the end of this season. I don't have a lot of confidence that they will last as a KHL team.

 

[TollefsenFan]

It doesn't need to be threat to the NHL in order to be great. Two leagues can coexist just fine. There's plenty of talent out there.

True!

 

[ozo]

In Soccer we have the big 5 Leagues (Premier League, Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga and Ligue 1) and thats it. British People dnt Call Eredsdivisie a minor League.

Yet you yourself just put Eredivisie on a lower shelf.

One example of american arroganse is this minor and major League thing. NHL is the only major League. All the others Leagues are minor.

This is a stretch. I believe, you hear what you wanna hear. For example, I even can't watch NBC televised NHL games, as McGuire sings praise songs 15 times in a single broadcast to all the colleges and Örnsköldsvik's of the world that produces wonderful hockey players that are on the ice that night. MODO should put him payroll for all the pimping he is doing year after year.

 

[Jonimaus]

Yet you yourself just put Eredivisie on a lower shelf.

Probably means 2nd tier does not equal minor league.
I've heard swedish 2nd tier be compared to a canadian beer league on this website.

 

[turk96]

One example of american arroganse is this minor and major League thing. NHL is the only major League. All the others Leagues are minor.

That's not only semantical, but very xenophobic. Besides, isn't the VHL basically considered the KHL minor league? So, I guess it isn't just we "arrogant Americans".

 

[TollefsenFan]

Yet you yourself just put Eredivisie on a lower shelf.

This is a stretch. I believe, you hear what you wanna hear. For example, I even can't watch NBC televised NHL games, as McGuire sings praise songs 15 times in a single broadcast to all the colleges and Örnsköldsvik's of the world that produces wonderful hockey players that are on the ice that night. MODO should put him payroll for all the pimping he is doing year after year.

Everyone know that the premier League is a bigger League than eredivisie. Still its not a minor League. Ajax is not a small Club. Ska St Petersburg is not a small Club. Thats my point. Minor and major League bullcrap irritates me.

 

[TollefsenFan]

That's not only semantical, but very xenophobic. Besides, isn't the VHL basically considered the KHL minor league? So, I guess it isn't just we "arrogant Americans".

I dnt speak russian, so I dnt know what they Call the MHL and VHL. What I do know is that ive read so many posters on HFboards referring to SHL and NLA as minor Leagues. I dnt like that negative use of Words. Why not just Call the League SHL or NLA or KHL.

 

[Atas2000]

There has been much anti-KHL discourse. So I dedicate this topic to that.

In general I feel that much of the anti-KHL discourse is wrong.


But for example, today an article came out, https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/khl-goes-from-threat-to-nyet-for-nhl-150317197.html , and it's such file garbage. I go wtf, what on earth is the guy thinking? So, What are your guys opinions on such matters? Am I the only one who seems to think that there is irrational hatred floating round, or what?

Also, I would say that the biggest hatred comes from north america. Many north-americans prefer the non-northamerican world to be a sort of lapdog for NHL interests. They are angry that the KHL exists because it makes it that countries such as Russia (and others) are no longer there for their usage and exploitation. It puts a thorn in the side of the bloated snob (NHL).

The fact that they go extatic about "KHL going from threat to non-threat"(which is of course BS on every level) is pretty telling.

Can't help but shrug. I don't care what ppl think about the KHL. It's the league I follow. I like it if the league becomes better, I don't when it becomes worse. I don't really care if anyone wants to make it a competition against the NHL.

 

[Atas2000]

Where do you see any hatred or anger of any sorts in that article? It more or less is a very fair assessment of the league from NHL centric point of view. Author even acknowledges that KHL was a threat of some sort in the first place, which I'm pretty strongly disagreeing with. In my eyes, KHL in long term is attractive only to a very specific demographic of NHL player pool - Russian speaking players. It sucks to loose Kovy, every NHL fan will admit that, but in reality it doesn't mean a whole lot to either of leagues. No matter how hard I look at that article all facts ring true to me (well the exit of Donbass isn't strictly a money issue), last years finalist went bust (so it a second team that has made final in 6 seasons that is no more), Lehtera (or was it Kontiola?) paid a 500K out of his pocket just to cross the pond, every single Russian kid still says that NHL is the ultimate dream and so on, and NHL is making more money than ever before. Or maybe you can elaborate more and provide some actual proof of hatred in that article?

Assesment - yes. Fair - no.

 

[Ryker]

I dnt speak russian, so I dnt know what they Call the MHL and VHL. What I do know is that ive read so many posters on HFboards referring to SHL and NLA as minor Leagues. I dnt like that negative use of Words. Why not just Call the League SHL or NLA or KHL.

So what do the posters have to do with the article? The major/minor distinction only applies to North American leagues. The KHL, NLA and SHL aren't defined as minor leagues, they're just defined as the KHL, NLA and SHL, and you're going with a strawman here. The only reason it's called major and minor is because they don't have the same system as a lot of the European leagues do. And in the end, it's just a term. If it bothers you that much, why doesn't the distinction DEL and DEL2, or Bundesliga and 2. Bundesliga, bother you, as well? Arrogant Germans, making a distinction between higher tier and lower tier leagues, right?

But, hey, maybe I can make a few posts on the boards where I call the NHL a minor league and declare the Slovenian hockey league as the only major league, as well. According to your logic, people will then be justified to generalize that Slovenians think of the NHL in negative terms and as a league that is second-rate to their own.

If you want to talk about Canadian or North American arrogance and ignorance, go listen to Glenn Healy and his commentary on Popov playing with Ovechkin and Malkin during the Olympic Games. Not this article. But there seem to be posters here that, as soon as someone says something that doesn't glorify the KHL, get their panties in a twist, act offended and exhibit all kinds of drama queen behavior.

 

[loppa*]

Those who agree with the article disappoint me. It is so blatantly wrong.

A) The very premise that the big bad russians are trying to bully us by taking away players and whatnot... like wtf? Seriously? That very aspect of the article is so problematic. Of course, they are disappointed that all of europe is not a lapdog to NHL interests.

B) The notion that KHL SUCKS SO BAD TODAY, LOOK IT"S GETTING WORSE HAHA LOSERS. That ignorant moron attitude that the article exhibits is downright disgusting. The KHL today is in a better situation than it was in a couple years ago. It is no more or less of a treat than it was, well, perhaps a little bit more, but nonetheless this very notion of calling it a threat is so disappointing.

C) To mention WHA... what? Seriously? The WHA was created because the NHL was ripping its players off like robber barons. The KHL can not and does not have the financial might to resort to that, but yes, if the NHL was underpaying all its players excessively then yes it would be a fair assessment to mention WHA. Yet again, BAD intentions from the author.


I don't have too much time, but other points are so Pejorative Slured in the article. Like TV stuff... there was never any really serious TV broadcast plan. Why bother wasting text to spew such small jolts of derogatory anti-KHL rhetoric?


To save time as I gotta go, here is what a person commented on the article, and what someone commented to that comment...

1 Reply
You Know My Name
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You Know My Name • 8 hours ago Report Abuse

Lord Jesus Wyshnyski, do your research, do your homework. Were you a flunky in school? (your poor grasp of grammar suggests as much).
So let me get this straight, the KHL went from a threat to nothing. This is based upon one comment from an eccentric agent at a time when there was a lock-out and his clients were therefore not getting paid. Good Lord....he criticized the NHL for the lockout and tried to claim that there was trouble around the corner in the form of a threat if they didn't get back to work? What ulterior motive or hidden agenda could he possibly have for saying that? Yet "certain" knee jerk bloggers who cannot be bothered to do their homework take it as gospel.
Let me make this perfectly clear to you....the KHL was never a threat. Never. Where was the KHL two years ago? A threat you say? Well, the average ticket price was in the neighbourhood of 15$. The average arena had a capacity of about 7,000 fans. You do the math. Average attendance 2 years ago was 5800. This past season the average attendance was 6100. Tell us again how 2 years ago they were a thriving threat.
Of course we read all the reports (well those of us who bother to learn) of teams on the brink of bankruptcy. Of course two years ago there were several reports of teams not being able to meet payroll demands and several players agreeing to deferred paycheques. Yup, a real threat to the NHL. Of course Jaromir Jagr was one of those players reported to have not gotten paid. He was on his way back to the NHL.
The KHL is a league for washed up AHL caliber players with a few enigmatic homesick Russian players. The league is not, was not and doesn't appear to be in the future able to be financially viable. I believe it was around 2 years ago that the KHL initiated a hard cap in the mid 30M range. I believe this past season, it was around the same. I believe that 90% of the teams were spending less than 10M. Yeah, a real threat. All one has to do is look at the math and the logistics. Hmmm....5000 fans at a game and 15$ for a ticket is a measly 75K per game. Oh yeah, they are going to really poach a lot of NHL stars. Not to mention....you have been to Russia.....yeah, that is where you want to play. The family will love it.
Saying that the KHL was a legitimate threat was just media hyperbole and using a quote from Allan Walsh to make your point is ill conceived. I have seen the "articles" over the years that have (foolishly) declared the NHL as having this perceived threat and I would always get a good chuckle. The KHL is "nyet?" Tell me something I didn't already know crayon boy.

1 Reply

a s
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a s • 5 hours ago Report Abuse

Couldn't agree more. Article seems to imply to me like we are looking at the KHL in the rear view mirror as if we just passed a bad accident. It wasn't a threat then and isn't a threat now. If anything it might (maybe) threaten the AHL in the sense of stealing away the prospects or veterans that normally would toil down there.
As for the NHL, it's still supreme. A good business would always treat the KHL as a threat and never underestimate it's potential regardless of how much of a true threat it is and as much as I hate to admit it (due to Bettman) they've done a reasonable job of that. The league is strong, there is great TV rights in place, the cap is working and we have top end talent here with the minors developing fantastic talent that is trickling up.

 

[Killion]

There has been much anti-KHL discourse. So I dedicate this topic to that....In general I feel that much of the anti-KHL discourse is wrong.

Im not reading any "hatred" nor xenophobia in that piece loppa, the author following a well worn path in terms of his premise & thesis which may or may not be correct, and let me explain.....The WHA was created by individuals from originally smaller markets (Winnipeg in particular) who found the doors barred to NHL entry through expansion. Either the league simply wasnt interested in Expanding to their markets or the individuals involved didnt have the full Expansion Price Tag, in some cases considering it too much circa 1967 & 1970.

The WHA was created to force the NHL to accept them through amalgamation, based on the American Basketball Association model (in fact the same Lawyers involved in creating the WHA that had created the ABA & forced NBA amalgamation). Some quarters in North America believe this was the KHL's plan as well. Compete for talent, force an Amalgamation, Russian/European NHL Division. The WHA's intentions were to force as quickly as possible amalgamation with the NHL & thus gain entry. Talks to that end beginning in 1973/74, a year after they started up in 72/73. Instead, the hardliners in the NHL wouldnt budge, but the more progressive owners like Ed Snider in Philadelphia advocating for it early in order to avoid the player wars, salaries going through the roof. Snider, fairly new to the NHL at that time (Philly entering in 67/68) couldnt believe the shortsightedness of the old guard owners like Ballard & Wirtz etc, who wanted to destroy the WHA altogether. That anyone would have the temerity to challenge the NHL's supremacy as the best league in North America or the planet. An attitude that still exists to this day.

The author of this article is following an old track, his "theory" in part being that the KHL was only created to initially compete for player talent & ultimately Global Supremacy as the penultimate Best League on the Planet in order to force the NHL to open the door to a European/Russian Division. That no matter what, it was a hopeless cause, that no way no how could a league created in Russia playing across Europe possibly ever rival the NHL in that regard. So youve got a Conspiracy Theory going on here. That Russian Oligarchs have no intention of really developing an elite on-par with NHL pro league, but are instead trying to Bluff & Bully their way into the NHL, forcing amalgamation, the creation of a European pan-Global league. During the Lockout when a number of players did head to the KHL, these same reporters rubbed there hands with glee that with the KHL, players now did have options, and the mighty NHL better watch itself or it will find itself as 2nd choice to the KHL. Then when things resumed to some normalcy & the players returned, Russia (and much of Europe) itself experiencing some serious financial difficulties, then talking out of the other sides of their mouths, that the KHL was corrupt, bent, a front for criminal activities & money laundering, barely on par with the AHL.

So ya. If Im a Russian or KHL fan, Id be taking comments like that personally. For starters, bigger ice surface, different game, and arguably absolutely on-par with the NHL but "different". Its a different game, style of play. Way more open. Headier. You see incredible moves because the players have more space. Every bit as entertaining as the NHL, more so if you like Firewagon Artistic Hockey. Not so much brute force, boring Left Wing Locks & Neutral Zone Trapping. The Russian game. Thing of beauty & with highly skilled imports from Scandinavia, Czechs, Americans & Canadians. Unique. Sure theyve got growing pains, so did & still does the NHL. If guys like Wyshyniski wanna just write them off, thats his problem. Opinions are like ***holes. Everyones got one. That attitude, aint right. Id love to be able to see the KHL on TV here in North America, an option or alternative to the NHL or sure, maybe one day an amalgamation. Either way. As a competitive league, game & product or in a shared pan-global league. But if you love hockey, theres no need to tear into the KHL.You should wish them well. Live & let live. Criticize sure, but do so constructively, respectfully.

 

[obskyr]

I don't really see much of KHL bashing in the article. It's just wrong in its premise. The KHL has never been an immediate threat to the NHL. I'm not sure how it may appear from an uninformed North American point of view, but in Russia any assertions like that have been ridiculed since the project kick off. I never understood Wyshynski's fixation on the WHA parallels, it's not the same case at all. If anything, the KHL is more like MLS or CFL of the hockey world and it's not going to change any time soon, because that's how much of a minor sport hockey is in Europe. The only reasonable topic in the current context is "KHL's threat to smaller European leagues". And it's been running on these boards for ages.

 

[Killion]

I don't really see much of KHL bashing in the article. It's just wrong in its premise. The KHL has never been an immediate threat to the NHL..... The only reasonable topic in the current context is "KHL's threat to smaller European leagues". And it's been running on these boards for ages.

Bingo. Fundamentally flawed. And yes, its' the smaller Euro leagues that have a problem with the KHL's ambitions and transcendent to just the issues of hockey. An awful lot of acrimonious history & muddied waters under those bridges. Lack of trust, confidence.

 

[pulverapa]

Bingo. Fundamentally flawed. And yes, its' the smaller Euro leagues that have a problem with the KHL's ambitions and transcendent to just the issues of hockey. An awful lot of acrimonious history & muddied waters under those bridges. Lack of trust, confidence.

Yes, this is how it is. But at the same time, don't forget that KHL´s ultimate goal is to become a threat to NHL, whilst leagues like SHL, NLA and SM-Liiga are just fine by being a farm league to the NHL.

 

[TollefsenFan]

Bingo. Fundamentally flawed. And yes, its' the smaller Euro leagues that have a problem with the KHL's ambitions and transcendent to just the issues of hockey. An awful lot of acrimonious history & muddied waters under those bridges. Lack of trust, confidence.

Now do we? For some European Leagues the KHL is an opportunity. We cant compete With SHL, Liiga, DEL or NLA. We dnt have the Money and Our best players move to SHL or DEL when they get the chance. Maybe the KHL can change some of that.

 

[Killion]

Yes, this is how it is. But at the same time, don't forget that KHL´s ultimate goal is to become a threat to NHL, whilst leagues like SHL, NLA and SM-Liiga are just fine by being a farm league to the NHL.

... or to force the NHL's hand with the creation of a Russian/European NHL Division. End~game being Amalgamation.

Now do we? For some European Leagues the KHL is an opportunity. We cant compete With SHL, Liiga, DEL or NLA. We dnt have the Money and Our best players move to SHL or DEL when they get the chance. Maybe the KHL can change some of that.

Ya, then theres this. It does represent an opportunity for countries, major markets to have elite teams playing in the KHL. Rather than elite players leaving home, some staying, playing for their hometown or home countries KHL Team (or teams'). Different from country-country, cant really generalize & have to parse it, look at it on a case by case basis. It does however cause no small amount of friction with the already well established elite leagues in Finland & Sweden, and the issues transcend just hockey & the KHL's ambitions. Pretty touchy subject with a lot of people. Want no part of it (the KHL).

 

[Yakushev72]

Its ridiculous to even compare the KHL to the NHL at this stage. The KHL is 5 years old, the NHL is 102 years old. The NHL operates in exceptionally rich countries where the cost of operation is almost a trivial concern, and where fan bases are able to easily pay for seats that range from $50 to $1,000 US dollars. Neither Russia nor Latvia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Slovakia or any other country in which the KHL operates has the financial power to support NHL-style franchises at this point. There are some rich guys who own the franchises who can afford to pay NHL-style salaries to individual players like Kovalchuk, when they can be attracted. Otherwise, they're just trying to attract the best possible players who are available.

If the KHL is better competitively than the old RSL, if it has better talent against which to compete, and if offers a lot of fun and the basis to develop a fan interest in a franchise, then it is all to the benefit of Russia. Other countries will have to decide whether they want to stay in the KHL, but the players will certainly value that extra option beside the NHL and their home domestic league. Already, the presence of the KHL has had the effect of promoting the MHL, which I believe is vital to Russia's hockey growth. But I think there is still a question as to what degree the league will succeed long-term.