Confirmed with Link: Anthony Stewart, picks to LA for Kevin Westgarth
- Thread starter DaveG
- Start date
La Huracanista
Registered User
And Brent sucks. Like, he and Stewart were the worst 4th line in the league. Kaberle and Stewart sucked too and they were on sucky multi-year deals.
I always liked the Poni deal though. He didn't produce but I admired his two-way play.
Westgarth is a fighter but he is not a hockey player...look into his advanced stats a little. Literally one of the worst players in the NHL. So I hope he plays like 15-20 games where needed and no more.
Brock Anton
flames #badnwagon
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Brent sucks relative to all NHL players, but as a 4th liner he's pretty middle-of-the-road.
He can at least honestly say he isn't hot garbage like Kaberle and Stewart.
He can at least honestly say he isn't hot garbage like Kaberle and Stewart.
Mr America
Registered User
La Huracanista
Registered User
I always thought the best ones could play on the PK.
Brent doesn't do that. For some reason he actually gets PP time.
For comparison, Helm and Eaves on Detroit:
Detroit players by SH TOI
- Aug 24, 2006
- 7,512
- 18,876
Tim Brent is a penalty killer. I know it's been a while since we've seen them play, but search your memory and you will remember. I think the coaching change did something to his PKTOI, but that doesn't mean Brent doesn't kill penalties.
And for a terrible player, Stewart managed to score 9 goals. I don't think these players are the pile of hot garbage that y'all seem to need to make them out to be. I just don't understand this board's fascination with bagging on players...
And for a terrible player, Stewart managed to score 9 goals. I don't think these players are the pile of hot garbage that y'all seem to need to make them out to be. I just don't understand this board's fascination with bagging on players...
WhiteTrashAmerican
WHY DID IT END
Joe McGrath
Registered User
- Oct 29, 2009
- 18,130
- 38,109
The problem for a guy like Stweart is that if you are only going to produce 20 points you need to contribute elsewhere. Hit? Nope. Hustle? Nope. Defensively responsible? Not at all. Fight? Two or three bear hugging contests. He isn't good enough to produce in the top 6 and doesn't have any of the qualities of a bottom 6 role player. He's the very definition of an NHL/AHL tweener IMO.
- Aug 24, 2006
- 7,512
- 18,876
Joe McGrath
Registered User
- Oct 29, 2009
- 18,130
- 38,109
Not many. But they are supposed to provide SOMETHING. That was my point. Westgarth is going to have maybe 3 points on the year but he will fight and generally dissuade people from taking advantage of the smaller players(at least that's what he's here for). Brent can kill penalties and was pretty versatile. Guys like Nodl and Dwyer are defensively responsible. Stewart was none of those things and was at best below average in every aspect of a 4th liners game. He's not talented enough to be a top 6 guy and he doesn't do any 1 thing well enough to be a role player.
- Aug 24, 2006
- 7,512
- 18,876
...except in goals and assists. I'd argue that 9 goals is above average for a 4th liner. That's usually a pretty major contribution factor, for any player. In fact, one might say it's the only one that *really* matters.
I'm not saying he's a great 4th liner, I'm just not giving into the hysteria perpetuated here.
TheBigKahuna
Registered User
Brent had the best game of his career against the Canes. That game probably made Jimmy think there was a lt more where that came from.
Joe McGrath
Registered User
- Oct 29, 2009
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I don't think Stewart is THAT bad either, but understand that he is likely to spend the rest of the season in the AHL or as a healthy scratch for a reason.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
To put it in perspective:
- Only 25 forwards in the league played 77+ games and scored 9- goals.
- Only 19 forwards in the league played 77+ games and scored 20- points.
- Only 17 forwards in the league are included on both the lists above.
The others are: Craig Adams, Eric Belanger, Gregory Campbell, Kyle Clifford, Tanner Glass, Matt Hendricks, Tom Kostopoulos, Maxim Lapierre, Manny Malhotra, Matt Martin, Jamal Mayers, Scott Nichol, Sammy Pahlsson, Darroll Powe, Brandon Prust and Shawn Thornton.
Of those players, Anthony Stewart was dead last in TOI. Unlike Campbell, Malhotra, Pahlsson, and a handful of others on that list, Stewart is not considered a clearly-defined defensive specialist. Unlike Thornton, Prust, Lapierre, Clifford and Martin, Stewart's job is not to take other players to the penalty box.
Stewart was one of maybe 5 or 7 forwards in the whole league who played a full healthy season and didn't score, didn't have a defensive role, and wasn't a goon. And he did that on a team that was absolutely desperate for warm bodies in its top-6, and virtually no serious competition from prospects, and a coach who had a mandate to mix things up and try new approaches.
Also, he was sent to waivers in February, when teams are willing to take risks on warm bodies, and still managed to get time on the first line after clearing waivers. He responded by scoring 2 goals within 10 minutes of each other, then going on a 21-game streak with 1 assist and all of four shots. How do you play over 100 minutes as a non-defensive forward and only take 4 shots? Tim Brent took 5 shots in a single game during that streak. Tim Brent.
So yes, Stewart was pretty much a pile of hot garbage. One would be very hard-pressed to name a forward in this league who spent as much time doing absolutely nothing for his team.
Anton Babchuk
Registered User
Stewart got some of the easiest minutes you'll see. Yeah, he put up decent point totals, but he played almost exclusively against the other team's 4th line and got a ton of offensive zone starts because he's absolutely awful defensively. When you have someone you can't trust to play against anyone decent or start in the defensive zone, it affects the rest of your team because they have to pick up those tougher minutes. The 4th line was atrocious the entire year and he was one of the key reasons why.
What's more relevant about Stewart, that he scored 20 points against 4th liners, or that he still managed to get outscored and wildly outshot by those 4th liners while putting up those 20 points? Basically, every game we played, the other team's 4th line turned into the best 4th line in the league thanks to the play of our pointscoring 4th liners. Brent and Stewart were simply awful at even strength regardless of how many points they scored.
What's more relevant about Stewart, that he scored 20 points against 4th liners, or that he still managed to get outscored and wildly outshot by those 4th liners while putting up those 20 points? Basically, every game we played, the other team's 4th line turned into the best 4th line in the league thanks to the play of our pointscoring 4th liners. Brent and Stewart were simply awful at even strength regardless of how many points they scored.
TheBigKahuna
Registered User
Stewart was a failed experiment. Time to move on, it happens every year. He'll get one or two more chances before his career becomes "beer league". But the guy simply can't skate. I know it's not his only problem, as I think giving 100% shift after shift was his biggest problem, but the guy is a terrible skater. I know 7 year olds who skate better. And he has jets! He can fly....but like an alligator, only for about 3 or 4 seconds at a time, and then hes done for the day!
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
This is the best graphic representation I have seen of how coaches use players to suit particular situations. Regardless of how anyone feels about this conversation in particular, I would recommend flipping through the pdf because it truly does capture the difficulty of different players' ice time in a way that is tough to pull out of raw stats.
On each chart:
- The farther left a player is, the more often he started in the defensive zone.
- The higher a player is, the tougher his competition was.
- A white bubble means the team was outshot while the player was on the ice; a blue bubble means the opposite. The size of the bubble tells us the size of the margin (so, big blue bubble > little blue bubble > little white bubble > big white bubble) and note that this metric is adjusted to individual, not team performance.
Say what you will about advanced analytics, but the results are hard to dispute. Brandon Sutter is in the extreme upper-left corner because he was always used defensively against the other team's top lines; he's a big white bubble because (naturally) the Canes were outshot when he was on the ice. One of the very few players in the league who managed to turn upper-left placement into a blue bubble was Jordan Staal; others included Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Backes.
So, where's Anthony Stewart? He's that huge, hideous white bubble in the lower right hand corner, indicating that he played in the offensive zone against weak competition and still managed to get badly outshot! Again, say what you will about advanced stats, but that kind of correlation doesn't lie. You don't get badly outshot by weak competition after starting in the offensive zone, unless you are playing like crap.
Note that Zach Boychuk is the only player still on the roster who received remotely the level of protected minutes that Stewart did. By the end of this season it wouldn't be a surprise to see that entire cluster of soft-minute-munchers playing in other organizations.
On each chart:
- The farther left a player is, the more often he started in the defensive zone.
- The higher a player is, the tougher his competition was.
- A white bubble means the team was outshot while the player was on the ice; a blue bubble means the opposite. The size of the bubble tells us the size of the margin (so, big blue bubble > little blue bubble > little white bubble > big white bubble) and note that this metric is adjusted to individual, not team performance.
Say what you will about advanced analytics, but the results are hard to dispute. Brandon Sutter is in the extreme upper-left corner because he was always used defensively against the other team's top lines; he's a big white bubble because (naturally) the Canes were outshot when he was on the ice. One of the very few players in the league who managed to turn upper-left placement into a blue bubble was Jordan Staal; others included Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Backes.
So, where's Anthony Stewart? He's that huge, hideous white bubble in the lower right hand corner, indicating that he played in the offensive zone against weak competition and still managed to get badly outshot! Again, say what you will about advanced stats, but that kind of correlation doesn't lie. You don't get badly outshot by weak competition after starting in the offensive zone, unless you are playing like crap.
Note that Zach Boychuk is the only player still on the roster who received remotely the level of protected minutes that Stewart did. By the end of this season it wouldn't be a surprise to see that entire cluster of soft-minute-munchers playing in other organizations.
SeaBasstian
Don't Tread On Me
this is all very interesting. very. the sad part is, although it does illustrate how awful Stewart was for us, but also illustrates how awful Westgarth was for LA. He did start a little more in the defensive zone than did Stewart, but his bubble is larger.
that being said, we arent bringing him in to be a good player, and were bringing in Stewart to battle for a top 6 spot so......yeah
Boom Boom Apathy
I am the Professor. Deal with it!
- Sep 6, 2006
- 48,356
- 97,900
While true, it should be noted though that Boychuk's sample is only 16 games though. And of the 16 games, 13 of them were with Maurice as the coach...and we know how he used prospects.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
That's a good reason as any to go ahead and temper our expectations now that he will be of any serious use as a hockey player. Probably a guy we want in the box for about the same number of minutes he's on the ice.
Good point. Another area where Stewart stands out:
Stewart 77
Joslin 44
Spacek 34
Kaberle 29
Boychuk 16
Dalpe 16
Of that bottom-right cluster, Stewart's placement represents almost double the next-largest sampling of games and accompanying opportunities to turn things around.
Carolinas Identity*
I'm a bad troll...
Oenatzu
Chad-in-the-Box
- Mar 7, 2010
- 1,067
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How long before we trade for Boll? He a good NC Kid
Right after JR wakes up from his afternoon nap.
HisIceness
This is Hurricanes Hockey
How long before we trade for Boll? He a good NC Kid
As soon as JR reconnects with Patrick O'Sullivan.
La Huracanista
Registered User
Yeah, Westgarth is a terrible NHL player. But he can fight, and LA only started him in like 25 games. That's the correct usage.
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