Anthony Peluso - am I the only guy that thinks he can be much more than a tough guy?

[truck]

Anthony Peluso floats around the ice?

Wow, I can understand people's problems with the guy but I have never seen this.

I took the float comment to mean skate around with no known destination. Tony does often appear to have no clue where he is supposed to be or where the puck is going, so I'd say it is a fair analogy. When he hits, it obviously isn't a float.

 

[garret9]

Peluso gives a comfort to the players that can't do what he does. I agree it is difficult to quantify what he does BUT when was the last time a team won without some toughness on their squad? I'd love AP on my team if I'm going to war. Maybe not so much in the playoffs unless he earns his way there.

I don't think Peluso adds toughness, or at least not by much.
He plays 5 minutes against 4th line players and fights other helmet punchers for no other reason than to justify their own jobs.
Byfuglien adds toughness. Ladd does. Lowry does. The "new" Wheeler. Kane did. Heck, Stuart, who is not the greatest player, adds toughness. That's toughness.

While I do believe toughness helps, so I wouldn't actually argue with that there.
The existence of something (or everyone using it) does not prove usage of it is best.
If everyone makes the same choice, then no one is at a disadvantage by making that choice.
That said, I believe toughness and physicality (not really intimidation) is part of what makes teams excell in shots and goals.

I did some fun work on this last year. My last post of the series is here:
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2014...t-energy-momentum-intangibles-enforcers-goons

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Peluso gives a comfort to the players that can't do what he does. I agree it is difficult to quantify what he does BUT when was the last time a team won without some toughness on their squad? I'd love AP on my team if I'm going to war. Maybe not so much in the playoffs unless he earns his way there.

Depends by what you mean by toughness. If you want to find a team that needed a goon for toughness that was a winning team your going to have to back a long way. Good teams don't use goons (see Chicago, Los Angeles, Detroit, Boston, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, etc, etc)

 

[Board Bard]

You are assuming it does not. We are both making assumptions........ I concede all your graphs and on ice Peluso data that shows him to be an on ice liability at times. My eye test shows me when he screws up as well. But Chevy Maurice and the Jets management have their own analytic # guys giving them the same information. Yet they still play him 40 plus games last year and give him a 2 year extension. That leads me to believe that Jet management assumes or believes that Pelusos role make up for these liabilities (just as I do). Just because you cannot quantify intimidation does not mean it does not determine an outcome in a game.
If you could some how quantify intimidation....U would get 30 job offers (32 job offers 2 years from now).
All NHL teams have their analytic and # guys and they keep it a big secret what they are always tracking and how. The Jets are one the highest penalized team and are known for hitting/speed and a heavy game. They find it acceptable to take a certain amount of penalties to play this way. If Peluso is only good at fighting and fighting carries an automatic 5 min penalty and 2 more if he instigates the fight. The Jets there for are employing Peluso to break the rules of the game. The Jets feel that his play and over all effectiveness out weighs the associated penalty. All intimidation in hockey is the grey/black market of hockey. It is smash mouth hockey stretching the limits of what a referee will and not call during a game. A D-man clearing the front of the net with a cross check, a face wash with the glove in a scrum, a shove to the head, elbow in the corner a kiiler Buff body check.

If a 100 point player on the opposition is rendered invisible because he does not like to play in a hostile environment........ then your intimidation has altered your opponents game plan.

............

If that's management's justification for keeping Peluso, they're even stupider than I thought.

 

[nobody important]

I took the float comment to mean skate around with no known destination. Toby does often appear to have no clue where he is supposed to be or where the puck is going, so I'd say it is a fair analogy. When he hits, it obviously isn't a float.

Hee hee. Freudian slip?

 

[truck]

Hee hee. Freudian slip?

Shows well what I text about most often. Good hockey players.

 

[Daximus]

Depends by what you mean by toughness. If you want to find a team that needed a goon for toughness that was a winning team your going to have to back a long way. Good teams don't use goons (see Chicago, Los Angeles, Detroit, Boston, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, etc, etc)

I'd say Boston had goons but they were goons that could play responsibly defensively and score while doing so.
Nothing intimidates a player more than someone who can stop them from scoring goals, score goals and then face punch them after.
If the face puncher only plays 5 minutes of sheltered hockey a game, I'm not scared of him.

 

[LadyJet26]

I'd say Boston had goons but they were goons that could play responsibly defensively and score while doing so.
Nothing intimidates a player more than someone who can stop them from scoring goals, score goals and then face punch them after.
If the face puncher only plays 5 minutes of sheltered hockey a game, I'm not scared of him.

See Lucic, Milan and the weasel. Only hockey player I've ever heard say Sami Salo was trying to hurt him

 

[Galbatross]

AP's biggest value is annoying the internet. Him being good at hockey is also a bonus.

 

[Jetsetter]

Big Brother

Depends by what you mean by toughness. If you want to find a team that needed a goon for toughness that was a winning team your going to have to back a long way. Good teams don't use goons (see Chicago, Los Angeles, Detroit, Boston, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, etc, etc)

Exactly why I started this thread! I think he's more than a thug. Yes he offers "bravery pills" to the youthful skilled forwards and adds back-up to the Ladd's, Buff's, Stewart's, etc. should there be push back from the other side.Yes he starts his share of pain but this is a band of brothers doing battle on the ice. If he's liked in the dressing room, and I do believe he is, he's a big brother.

I'm not shy to say I like to watch the rough stuff BUT I love our team being known for being very tough to play against, in all ways! There's something special about that to me.

I can see a serious need for "Big Brother" over the next few years with the Jets plans to add additional youth. If I played for any of the Central teams I'd be planning to play those guys hard. Set the tone. "Big Brother" will be there to hopefully pop a few in and stem the tide of aggression against our youth until they can handle it on their own. By then we'll be holding the Cup in 2019 I hear.

Just my 2 cents on Big Brother.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Exactly why I started this thread! I think he's more than a thug. Yes he offers "bravery pills" to the youthful skilled forwards and adds back-up to the Ladd's, Buff's, Stewart's, etc. should there be push back from the other side.Yes he starts his share of pain but this is a band of brothers doing battle on the ice. If he's liked in the dressing room, and I do believe he is, he's a big brother.

I'm not shy to say I like to watch the rough stuff BUT I love our team being known for being very tough to play against, in all ways! There's something special about that to me.

I can see a serious need for "Big Brother" over the next few years with the Jets plans to add additional youth. If I played for any of the Central teams I'd be planning to play those guys hard. Set the tone. "Big Brother" will be there to hopefully pop a few in and stem the tide of aggression against our youth until they can handle it on their own. By then we'll be holding the Cup in 2019 I hear.

Just my 2 cents on Big Brother.

No other young team has needed that. The Jets have plenty of toughness. No needs that. The play a fast heavy game already. They got guys with skill that can grind and work the other team down. The guy that can't play even basic systems, struggles with and without the puck and only hits guy 4 seconds late is not helping at any rate. Being stuck in your own end and fighting goons does not protect anyone.

Fact is he is a horrendous hockey player. He should be anywhere near an NHL roster. He does not add toughness, he does not add offense, he harms the Jets defensively, he forces the Jets to overplay their top players. There is literally no reason for Anthony Peluso. He hurts us by being on the roster.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Anthony is equally good at punching faces with his hand as he is at punching hands with his face. He doesn't really do anything exceptionally well. Unless he is another locker room glue guy. But then how many times are we going to use the glue guy thing to justify another stupid contract.

 

[Daximus]

Anthony is equally good at punching faces with his hand as he is at punching hands with his face. He doesn't really do anything exceptionally well. Unless he is another locker room glue guy. But then how many times are we going to use the glue guy thing to justify another stupid contract.

I agree if everyone is a locker room glue guy then we might as well keep this roster going forward and only bring up players when it's time for someone to retire, then we can hire them on as staff so we keep the crew together. It's nonsense, this league and other teams constantly change and adapt and if we don't do that it will mean we stay a bubble team or worse going forward.
It doesn't make sense to keep everyone around, no matter how detrimental they are on the ice, just because they get along. We have plenty of "character" guys, we need our skill guys in the lineup.
What Thorburn brings to the table for a 4th liner is plenty good enough and although he's not as good a fighter as TP, he's a better hockey player. At least until we can bring up Lemiuex, who looks to be a better skater than both of them and has the ability to score.
We are slowly getting rid of some of the guys that drag this team down and replacing them with in house homegrown talent but man is it a slow process.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'd agree with this. "Advanced" stats can certainly shed some insight and add context, but I agree they are not yet developed to the point where they can account for and reflect what many would like them to.

What is it that "many would like them to" that they fail at? I can certainly see how they can be misused and they are easily misunderstood by the 'math challenged' but all I see here from those posters who know how to use them is the so called 'advanced stats' being used to examine and illustrate possession for the most part. These stats are all about real events. They count things that actually happen. A smart cookie can then look at what happens in different circumstances and reach conclusions based on those results but they are still only examining reality. It is not voodoo.

The eye-test in Peluso's case tells us that he loses the puck to easily and has too much difficulty getting the puck. It tells us that he gets pinned in his own end a lot. The eye-test does not quantify those things. The 'advanced stats' tell us exactly the same but they add precision. How much does he possess the puck? How much is he pinned in his own end? We can then compare his numbers to those of other players.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Someone who floats around the ice for 5 minutes a game and fights other enforcers in staged fights is not intimidation.
Big tough players who play big minutes can intimidate.
In your entire post you are using highly skilled physical players and then comparing Peluso to them.

Anthony Peluso floats around the ice?

Wow, I can understand people's problems with the guy but I have never seen this.

So now everybody is going to take exception to Gnova's use of the phrase "floats around the ice" when the important part of his post was what I have bolded.

BTW I agree he doesn't float. He is a tryer.

 

[Yukon Joe]

A lot of people are really worked up over a guy earning $675k for two years.

Sheesh.

For that salary (or even a hell of a lot more e.g. Peter Budaj) the Jets are perfectly willing to send him across the hall to the Moose, or even if he's on the Jets roster to have him sit in the pressbox.

I couldn't easily find out how many players the Jets have under contract (capgeek I miss you so!) but I'm pretty sure they're not up against the 50 contract limit either.

Peluso's a guy that might be useful to have around, so the Jets signed him to a budget deal just barely above the league minimum.

If, during the season, Peluso's on the game-day roster and isn't playing well by all means criticize PMo for that, but I can't get very worked up over him merely being under contract.

 

[garret9]

For that salary, the Jets could seriously upgrade analytics department:
http://www.storiesnumberstell.com/my-dream-nhl-analytics-department/

 

[Flair Hay]

For that salary, the Jets could seriously upgrade analytics department:
http://www.storiesnumberstell.com/my-dream-nhl-analytics-department/

Lmao

 

[tacogeoff]

For that salary, the Jets could seriously upgrade analytics department:
http://www.storiesnumberstell.com/my-dream-nhl-analytics-department/

that was pretty good.

 

[garret9]

that was pretty good.

Haha... It was partially tongue in cheek post by me there above, but it is a quick and easy way to get a competitive edge in not just being trend followers but trend setters in analytics.

I like that article a lot though for two reasons:
1) It was made by a high-end social science guy, not a stats/engineer/math guy, so he appeals to both sides
2) It has some great ideas like psychosocial, training, and such type of research. The development goes beyond the surface level of what currently exists.

If all 30 teams did do that, it would only be an investment of 1% of revenue on research and development.

 

[tacogeoff]

Haha... It was partially tongue in cheek post by me there above, but it is a quick and easy way to get a competitive edge in not just being trend followers but trend setters in analytics.

I like that article a lot though for two reasons:
1) It was made by a high-end social science guy, not a stats/engineer/math guy, so he appeals to both sides
2) It has some great ideas like psychosocial, training, and such type of research. The development goes beyond the surface level of what currently exists.

If all 30 teams did do that, it would only be an investment of 1% of revenue on research and development.

oh I know. it was actually a good read.

 

[Jet]

So now everybody is going to take exception to Gnova's use of the phrase "floats around the ice" when the important part of his post was what I have bolded.

BTW I agree he doesn't float. He is a tryer.

I wasn't taking exception. I was noting what I thought was a clearly incorrect statement. Peluso gets crucified on here ad nauseum, theres enough material to criticize him for without adding questionable stuff.

 

[KingBogo]

What is it that "many would like them to" that they fail at? I can certainly see how they can be misused and they are easily misunderstood by the 'math challenged' but all I see here from those posters who know how to use them is the so called 'advanced stats' being used to examine and illustrate possession for the most part. These stats are all about real events. They count things that actually happen. A smart cookie can then look at what happens in different circumstances and reach conclusions based on those results but they are still only examining reality. It is not voodoo.

The eye-test in Peluso's case tells us that he loses the puck to easily and has too much difficulty getting the puck. It tells us that he gets pinned in his own end a lot. The eye-test does not quantify those things. The 'advanced stats' tell us exactly the same but they add precision. How much does he possess the puck? How much is he pinned in his own end? We can then compare his numbers to those of other players.

To answer your question, and simply put. Give us a true measure of possession. At best they give us a loose approximation. It is the best thinking of the day, but a decade from now advance stats will likely look quite different. True they count things that happen, but IMO there are still many holes, and I wouldn't call them very precise.

+/- also counts things that have actually happened and examines reality, but it doesn't mean it has much value. Not that I'm comparing "advance stats" to +/-, just using it as an illustration. As I said in my original post they add insight and context but they are unable to account for what many hope they will be able to do one day.

 

[truck]

A lot of people are really worked up over a guy earning $675k for two years.

Sheesh.

For that salary (or even a hell of a lot more e.g. Peter Budaj) the Jets are perfectly willing to send him across the hall to the Moose, or even if he's on the Jets roster to have him sit in the pressbox.

I couldn't easily find out how many players the Jets have under contract (capgeek I miss you so!) but I'm pretty sure they're not up against the 50 contract limit either.

Peluso's a guy that might be useful to have around, so the Jets signed him to a budget deal just barely above the league minimum.

If, during the season, Peluso's on the game-day roster and isn't playing well by all means criticize PMo for that, but I can't get very worked up over him merely being under contract.

I don't think anybody is concerned about the dollars, just the roster spot and the fact that he's averaged 50 games of bad hockey over the last two seasons.

 

[StefanW]

Haha... It was partially tongue in cheek post by me there above, but it is a quick and easy way to get a competitive edge in not just being trend followers but trend setters in analytics.

I like that article a lot though for two reasons:
1) It was made by a high-end social science guy, not a stats/engineer/math guy, so he appeals to both sides
2) It has some great ideas like psychosocial, training, and such type of research. The development goes beyond the surface level of what currently exists.

If all 30 teams did do that, it would only be an investment of 1% of revenue on research and development.

Thank you Garret, much appreciated.