Player Discussion: Anthony Cirelli

[Stammertime91]

I was comparing Cirelli to O'Rielly because in his prime he was considered the best two way center in the game, a perennial Selke candidate, and Cirelli is our version of him. I did not say Cirelli was O'Rielly.

I made the point that even so, O'Rielly couldn't score 30 goals and only hit 70 points once, to show that the offensive expectations people have for Cirelli should be modest.

Yet after your entire post you conclude that Cirelli should be good for 55 points, that is the number of points I concluded Cirelli should put up to meet expectations. Um, okay, what was your point again?

Just to argue with Tampa fans and call us dumb for wanting more offense from a center being paid over 6M for 8 years. Crazy huh. Lol.

 

[JTBF81]

For 8 years....

And? The cap is going up significantly over the coming years, greatly minimizing the slight overpay his contract is viewed by some as being for now.

 

[OffBy1]

And? The cap is going up significantly over the coming years, greatly minimizing the slight overpay his contract is viewed by some as being for now.

I guess we'll just have to only wait through 3-4 more years of mid 40 point seasons before we can realize how great we've had it.

 

[JTBF81]

I guess we'll just have to only wait through 3-4 more years of mid 40 point seasons before we can realize how great we've had it.

And great defensive play and usually clutch playoff efforts, yep, guess so. I cam also use my crystal ball if we're supposedly already knowing what will happen for 4 more years.

 

[Byrddog]

What do you guys think, will Cirelli break the 50 point plateau next season?

Doubtful, it’s always wait until next season with this guy. Just like the last couple games he has a couple where he is productive then crawls back into his hole.

 

[These Are The Days]

Cirelli's contract is fine. He just needs to be more productive. If he finished the year at like 19 goals and his usual 45 points and played (at least okay) defensively would we really be that upset? But I digress. I am very open to trading him in a deal that makes the Lightning better. Business is business.

But the deal needs to make sense for the Lightning

 

[LeafLoyalist]

I was comparing Cirelli to O'Rielly because in his prime he was considered the best two way center in the game, a perennial Selke candidate, and Cirelli is our version of him. I did not say Cirelli was O'Rielly.

I made the point that even so, O'Rielly couldn't score 30 goals and only hit 70 points once, to show that the offensive expectations people have for Cirelli should be modest.

Yet after your entire post you conclude that Cirelli should be good for 55 points, that is the number of points I concluded Cirelli should put up to meet expectations. Um, okay, what was your point again?

I was simply adding more context to your analysis, and agree that expectations on high offensive output should be tepid. I was trying to point out that his usage plays a big part in results offensively, and he doesn't seem to consistently be put in those situations to grow his offense.

 

[OffBy1]

I cam also use my crystal ball if we're supposedly already knowing what will happen for 4 more years.

And? The cap is going up significantly over the coming years, greatly minimizing the slight overpay his contract is viewed by some as being for now.

You already dazzled me with it.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

I guess we'll just have to only wait through 3-4 more years of mid 40 point seasons before we can realize how great we've had it.

Next season he will be about 7% of the cap. That seems right on par for 0.5ppg a year that is defensively responsible?

 

[The Macho King]

Cirelli is what he's always been. Don't drag him for not being a .8 ppg player when he's never been that.

He got offered the money and he took it. Blame JBB if you think he's overpaid, but don't expect him to be something he's never been to this point in his career.

 

[Stelio Kontos]

I say.. ltir him until the playoffs and use the cap space to get Kuznetsov w salary ret and a D

Paul Kuz Kuch
Hagel point stamkos
Eyss Cirelli jeannot
Motte Glend Watson

 

[DFC]

Cirelli's contract is fine. He just needs to be more productive. If he finished the year at like 19 goals and his usual 45 points and played (at least okay) defensively would we really be that upset? But I digress. I am very open to trading him in a deal that makes the Lightning better. Business is business.

But the deal needs to make sense for the Lightning

I agree, although I think when he plays below that level offensively, he's fair game for criticism.

He's probably always going to be a polarizing player, mainly because he has shown potential to be a better scorer than he is ever likely to become.

 

[JTBF81]

Cirelli's contract is fine. He just needs to be more productive. If he finished the year at like 19 goals and his usual 45 points and played (at least okay) defensively would we really be that upset? But I digress. I am very open to trading him in a deal that makes the Lightning better. Business is business.

But the deal needs to make sense for the Lightning

The problem is that even if Cirelli was being made available, which he almost certainly is not, Tampa would not be improving enough. They may be able to get a top 4 dman perhaps, but at the cost of further depleting the top 6/top 9. They may get a pick and/or prospect back in addition, but neither would be likely to help the team significantly in the short term. There are other routes to improving the d-core thus season if needed(and the F group as well), without trading obe of Tampa's top 5 or 6 forwards. We've already seen how willing JBB is to move draft picks and prospects, and there are still enough of each for Tampa to address some holes, if needed/wanted, at or closer to the tdl.

 

[JTBF81]

You already dazzled me with it.

Nah, I stated a fact, as the cap will be increasing considerably over the next few years according to many credible sources. In doing so, it further reduces Cirelli's overall % of the team's total cap, thereby making his contract less of the horrible burden on the team some on here continue to go on about. Unless you're from the future and have Cirelli's stats for the next 3.or 4.seasons, all you offered was assumption and prediction.

 

[Hoek]

I agree, although I think when he plays below that level offensively, he's fair game for criticism.

He's probably always going to be a polarizing player, mainly because he has shown potential to be a better scorer than he is ever likely to become.

That's the annoying thing. He's scored garbage goals and sometimes big ones, from time to time but then just completely disappears from crashing the net for a while.

 

[DFC]

The problem is that even if Cirelli was being made available, which he almost certainly is not, Tampa would not be improving enough. They may be able to get a top 4 dman perhaps, but at the cost of further depleting the top 6/top 9. They may get a pick and/or prospect back in addition, but neither would be likely to help the team significantly in the short term. There are other routes to improving the d-core thus season if needed(and the F group as well), without trading obe of Tampa's top 5 or 6 forwards. We've already seen how willing JBB is to move draft picks and prospects, and there are still enough of each for Tampa to address some holes, if needed/wanted, at or closer to the tdl.

I don't know if we have enough in the cupboard right now to land anybody significant.

I think the criticism of Cirelli's offense has been pretty fair. We are paying him like a two-way player, and he's really been a defensive specialist. And I think that side of his game has perhaps been a little undervalued here. But I mean, I believe Cirelli has had some TERRIBLE playoff runs, but in more recent years he definitely has been a very effective shutdown player, and probably our best shutdown player. I'll take a guy who can contain the other teams' best players, even if he's not scoring. I think there's a lot of value in that.

But for the time-being, his contract is for a decent (not top-end) 2C, and he isn't that. He has never really developed offensive chemistry with anybody who has ever come through the organization. I think 40ish points is the bar, given how limited his PP time/opportunity is. We need him to be serviceable on offense while being among the best defensive forwards in the league, in order to justify the contract. Sometimes he is, sometimes he isn't.

 

[DFC]

Nah, I stated a fact, as the cap will be increasing considerably over the next few years according to many credible sources. In doing so, it further reduces Cirelli's overall % of the team's total cap, thereby making his contract less of the horrible burden on the team some on here continue to go on about. Unless you're from the future and have Cirelli's stats for the next 3.or 4.seasons, all you offered was assumption and prediction.

That seems to be JBB's gamble. I don't think the gamble is on whether or not the cap will go up, because that seems like a given right now. It's more about how much of that money top-end players will demand compared to middle of the road guys. Like, will Cirelli still be over-paid as a 6.5m 3C, because 3Cs of his caliber will get around 4.5, while the market for star players pushes regularly into double digits.

 

[OffBy1]

Nah, I stated a fact, as the cap will be increasing considerably over the next few years according to many credible sources.

A fact? You're referring to the other people's predictions/assumptions on the future of the cap?
I believe they are reasonable predictions - but that's not what a fact is.

It's also not unreasonable to predict a 26 year old player who hasn't topped 44 points through 5 full seasons yet and isn't likely to start producing like a true 2nd line center, especially when we can't afford true second line wingers for him due to our cap situation, something his over pay contributes to now.

 

[OffBy1]

Cirelli is what he's always been. Don't drag him for not being a .8 ppg player when he's never been that.

He got offered the money and he took it. Blame JBB if you think he's overpaid, but don't expect him to be something he's never been to this point in his career.

I agree with all of this and JBB is the one I blame. You have to talk about the player's performance to evaluate the contract. I like Cirelli, don't like his contract, but I would have signed it too.

 

[JTBF81]

A fact? You're referring to the other people's predictions/assumptions on the future of the cap?
I believe they are reasonable predictions - but that's not what a fact is.

It's also not unreasonable to predict a 26 year old player who hasn't topped 44 points through 5 full seasons yet and isn't likely to start producing like a true 2nd line center, especially when we can't afford true second line wingers for him due to our cap situation, something his over pay contributes to now.

Lol, "contributes to now", yes please let us know all the great top 6 wingers that the team could've brought in with an extra 750k-1 million in cap space this past off season, this should be good.

And I said that Cirelli's cap hit and contract wouldn't be seen as nearly as bad as some see it now, because yes, the cap will be going up in the future, thereby reducing Cirelli's overall team cap % as his contract continues. Nothing I said was incorrect or non factual in regards to the cap situation or value of the contract(which I've also stated is currently 750k-1 million high for now), and then you decide to respond with a negative and pointless comment, more of the usual, woe is us because of Cirelli offered by many around here, and here's what the team will have to suffer through for 3 or 4 more years. Nothing but an assumption and a prediction. I responded in kind(which I shouldn't have since your initial reply added nothing worth responding to), and here we are.

 

[Rschmitz]

I was simply adding more context to your analysis, and agree that expectations on high offensive output should be tepid. I was trying to point out that his usage plays a big part in results offensively, and he doesn't seem to consistently be put in those situations to grow his offense.

Ok, just didn’t understand why you were being disagreeable when we were both in agreement. Carry on

 

[OffBy1]

Lol, "contributes to now", yes please let us know all the great top 6 wingers that the team could've brought in with an extra 750k-1 million in cap space this past off season, this should be good.

JBB also overpaid Serge, by more than just 1 mil with how he's played this year. Not sure about the Cernak contract. But regardless those two over pays alone could have given us 2-2.5 mil to add to the two mil we gave to Sheary to have gotten someone better. I don't know if there was a good 4-5 mil F or D on the market, but it wouldn't have mattered due to the overpays.

These 8 year deals also limit JBB's ability to deal either of them when neither are playing up to them, who is going to give us a good trade for one of them?

I can give JBB credit for a good contract - Hagel's. He's not far behind Cirelli defensively and he can be a 30 goal scorer, currently close to a point per game player on the top line. Hagel makes just $250k more a year.

 

[JTBF81]

I don't know if we have enough in the cupboard right now to land anybody significant.

I think the criticism of Cirelli's offense has been pretty fair. We are paying him like a two-way player, and he's really been a defensive specialist. And I think that side of his game has perhaps been a little undervalued here. But I mean, I believe Cirelli has had some TERRIBLE playoff runs, but in more recent years he definitely has been a very effective shutdown player, and probably our best shutdown player. I'll take a guy who can contain the other teams' best players, even if he's not scoring. I think there's a lot of value in that.

But for the time-being, his contract is for a decent (not top-end) 2C, and he isn't that. He has never really developed offensive chemistry with anybody who has ever come through the organization. I think 40ish points is the bar, given how limited his PP time/opportunity is. We need him to be serviceable on offense while being among the best defensive forwards in the league, in order to justify the contract. Sometimes he is, sometimes he isn't.

I think they could still go for upgrades on LD like Seeler perhaps, and at least one RD move, whether a rental type like Lyubushkin or an rfa such as Fabbro. At F, there could be some options with retention like Duclair or Barabanov from S.J., maybe Sprong if Detroit falls back, or perhaps someone like Novak from Nashville. JBB has pulled some creative trades off before, so if Tampa is in a position to add, I wouldn't be surprised to at least see 1 or 2 depth adds/improvements at or near the tdl.

 

[JTBF81]

JBB also overpaid Serge, by more than just 1 mil with how he's played this year. Not sure about the Cernak contract. But regardless those two over pays alone could have given us 2-2.5 mil to add to the two mil we gave to Sheary to have gotten someone better. I don't know if there was a good 4-5 mil F or D on the market, but it wouldn't have mattered due to the overpays.

These 8 year deals also limit JBB's ability to deal either of them when neither are playing up to them, who is going to give us a good trade for one of them?

I can give JBB credit for a good contract - Hagel's. He's not far behind Cirelli defensively and he can be a 30 goal scorer, currently close to a point per game player on the top line. Hagel makes just $250k more a year.

There were many factors, but Cirelli's slight overpay is far from the main reason the team is missing 1 or 2 depth pieces of higher quality. I agree that Serg was paid far more than he should've received, by at least 1.5 million(being generous), and Cernak maybe 500kish.

JBB missed so far on the Sheary signing, but there's still time to have it turn around. If not, he can be moved after the season. The 3 main rfas were never seen by management as trade chips imo. JBB views all 3 as integral parts of the core now and well into the future. Given the 3 year bridges they had been on, JBB followed the plan with most other Tampa players and locked them up for their primes.

As with the Cirelli contract, all 3 will continue to look better as the cap continues to increase and they are reduced in terms of overall team cap %. It's true that JBB gambled on all 3 maximizing their potential, which is still very possible. JBB could have paid them less perhaps and added one more better dman or F in the 4-5 million range, but there's no guarantee they were taking lowball offers either. There are other ways for Tampa to add depth if needed at or near the deadline, and with the cap increases coming, by next year or at latest, the year after, Tampa will have a solid amount of space to add more significant depth pieces via ufa.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Is he reading hf?