Andrey "The Moscow Monster" Pedan

[Hit the post]

i think you can hold this up as a good case study of why you think current management are idiots.

They're not idiots themselves per say....more like they're in way over their heads with only "talent" like Weisbrod to give them support ('the blind leading the blind").

 

[MS]

admit what? it's what i have been saying all along. look at my very first post yesterday.

Fair enough.

Although saying you're 'surprised' initially is a lot softer position than 'seems so bad it makes no sense to anyone'.

the bottom line is we both see the same thing and choose to process it differently.

you see it as confirmation of a belief that management is so bad they even with better free agent options they would re-sign a washed out prospect who the coach they just hired gave up on as an ahl player.

i see it as a riddle in search of answer. i see your theory as requiring we assume a level of incompetence i just have not seen with this management group. even if we assume they are the out of touch old schoolers you paint them as, they would be loyal to green and not sign a guy greeny clearly didn't want or like. it makes no sense.

we'll see. it's a pretty good litmus test. if pedan is just horrible and green won't play him and we don't need him, i think you can hold this up as a good case study of why you think current management are idiots.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing Green into this. Green wasn't willing to play Pedan regularly in the AHL last year, much less the NHL. Pedan is a mediocre AHL defender, and he'll belong to whoever our new AHL coach is. It's ludicrous to think that Pedan could contribute to the NHL squad next year in any capacity, and if they try it'll be embarrassing because he can't remotely play at this level.

And I do see this level of incompetence, as most other people here do. The terrible moves they've consistently made for both the AHL and NHL squads have earned zero benefit of the doubt.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Fair enough.

Although saying you're 'surprised' initially is a lot softer position than 'seems so bad it makes no sense to anyone'.

i said "it makes no sense at all to me" in that first post. is that not similar enough?

I'm not sure why you keep bringing Green into this. Green wasn't willing to play Pedan regularly in the AHL last year, much less the NHL. Pedan is a mediocre AHL defender, and he'll belong to whoever our new AHL coach is. It's ludicrous to think that Pedan could contribute to the NHL squad next year in any capacity, and if they try it'll be embarrassing because he can't remotely play at this level.

right, well you've laid down your marker on what you think.

 

[MS]

I'll go back to this :

i see it as a riddle in search of answer

And yeah, of course they have reasons for this in their minds.

But if you understand two basic things :

1) Pedan is not a good AHL player

2) players who are not good AHL players have zero NHL utility (especially when they still can't stick in an AHL lineup after 4 years at that level)

... then it should be fairly obvious that any thoughts or plans they have about any NHL connotations for Pedan are misplaced and bound to fail.

Players where Pedan is at simply do not constitute NHL options or NHL depth. But you have a GM who is panicking about size and can't let go of a bad deal for a bad player ... and here we are.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I. But you have a GM who is panicking about size and can't let go of a bad deal for a bad player ... and here we are.

that's your speculation.

it could just as easily have been a measured discussion in which green, linden and benning watched tape curated by proscouting and discussed whether pedan could develop and contribute and weisbrod gave a list of possible free agent alternatives to pedan, and all the pro scouts discussed those alternatives relative to pedan and the chances of signing them, and some feeler calls were made to agents to gauge interest, after which a giant white board was used to rank alternatives as they were all discussed and a unanimous vote was taken that pedan is someone we should not give up on, with green leading the charge making a passionate speech about how he believed in pedan and would make it work.

or somewhere in between.

we don't know. we'll see how this turns out.

 

[RobertKron]

that's your speculation.

it could just as easily have been a measured discussion in which green, linden and benning watched tape curated by proscouting and discussed whether pedan could develop and contribute and weisbrod gave a list of possible free agent alternatives to pedan, and all the pro scouts discussed those alternatives relative to pedan and the chances of signing them, and some feeler calls were made to agents to gauge interest, after which a giant white board was used to rank alternatives as they were all discussed and a unanimous vote was taken that pedan is someone we should not give up on, with green leading the charge making a passionate speech about how he believed in pedan and would make it work.

or somewhere in between.

we don't know. we'll see how this turns out.

I mean, it's also possible that a time traveler from the future came and told them that if they didn't give Pedan this contract, he'd be so disillusioned that he'd start a horrible hateful cult that would eventually rise to power on the eventually colonized Mars, return to earth, and put all Canadians in death camps.

 

[vancityluongo]

or you and ms are wrong about how easy it will be for the canucks to recruit enough defensive talent better than pedan in the pending free agent market to fill out their depth chart.

You and MS have already discussed this so this is a moot point, but bottom tier NHL defenseman are probably willing to take any contract they can get so as to not have to accept an AHL ATO like Bartkowski did. The reason Edmonton didn't have good bottom pairing defenseman is because their entire d core was atrocious and they couldn't pro scout.

I think Jim Benning is a total idiot, but I'm sure the scenario you laid out a couple posts above is very reasonable and most likely what they did. The guy probably puts in his due diligence; he just has made a lot of wrong calls based on pre-conceived notions of players, and in many other cases has shown a poor understanding of talent evaluation and roster management.

This is one of those cases where with no hindsight at all, even if Pedan has a huge break through and cracks the NHL roster as a solid 6th defenseman - this contract is still a mistake, because based on his market value right now he should be paid less. Let alone if he does as expected and only manages to float in and out of the lineup in Utica.

It's like drafting some unranked kid out of Siberia fifth overall who then turns out to be the next Karlsson or Bure or Datsyuk. Props for seeing it coming/fluking out on the right kid, but why the **** would you not move down?

 

[Tim McCracken]

I'm a Green skeptic but he must see something there. Someone mentioned McIlrath...sure sign him up too. Softest team in the league by far.

 

[F A N]

the obvious thing to do is sign Colby Robak to a contract. Should be an absolute no-brainer. The guy has 50 games of NHL experience and was far and away the best defender in Utica last season according to every observer down there. Easy signing of a player who represents far better depth than Pedan and wouldn't be out of place as an NHL callup.

If you're against signing Pedan for the reasons you listed, why is signing Robak an absolute no brainer? I don't care if he was the best defender in Utica last season, Utica can sign him. The last time Robak played in the NHL was... well... when he was 24. We already have Biega. At this point Robak's NHL potential is pretty much zilch. Biega is a rarity (helped by the expansion draft).

Just to be clear, my position is that if a prospect/player has no NHL potential and won't be called up, there's no point giving him an NHL contract unless you really think he's good for the kid's development (even then the first choice is for the AHL team to sign him). So no I'm not saying Pedan is a good signing just like I wouldn't say Robak is a good signing if the Canucks choose to sign him. But between Pedan and Robak, I'm personally going with Pedan. I rather give one last shot to a 24 year old Dman who has shown some promise in the past whose injuries have effected his development than a 27 year old who just never panned out. Plus, Pedan doesn't count as a vet in the AHL.

Third, if you're that obsessed with size, guys like Seth Helgeson and Dylan McIlrath are UFAs this summer and will be signing contracts similar to what we just gave Pedan. And are far better players, both to partner an AHL prospect with and as callup options.

I think Pedan is a better "prospect" as in if (a huge if) Pedan reverses his regression Pedan has a shot at playing some games for the Canucks. I'm not too familiar with Helgeson but like Robak he will be 27 and I believe doesn't have Pedan's skating and puck skills? McIlrath doesn't have Pedan's skating and puck skills but if the team was looking strictly for a size/toughness/fighter then I agree McIlrath is the better Dman.

Pedan is just complete junk. And convincing yourself that he represents 'depth' or 'size' or anything to help the NHL team when he wasn't good enough to stay in a bad AHL lineup is just not logical. At all.

The reality is that a lot of times it's "who the coach will play." This signing is more or less to give Green options if need be. Benning isn't going to get into an argument with Green if he prefers Pedan to Subban or McEneny for example. It might be a different story if Green keeps playing Pedan and scratching Juolevi for instance. Like it or not, Pedan is the "Dman with size" that the Canucks chose to have as "depth." They aren't going to sign someone else to fill that role and the Canucks don't have anyone on the farm who comes remotely close to being physical on the backend.

Like, this isn't a huge deal or anything

It really isn't. But you're making it out to be one.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think Pedan is a better "prospect" as in if (a huge if) Pedan reverses his regression Pedan has a shot at playing some games for the Canucks. I'm not too familiar with Helgeson but like Robak he will be 27 and I believe doesn't have Pedan's skating and puck skills? McIlrath doesn't have Pedan's skating and puck skills but if the team was looking strictly for a size/toughness/fighter then I agree McIlrath is the better Dman.

why not just save us all the trouble re-sign gudbranson for komisarek money?

 

[MS]

If you're against signing Pedan for the reasons you listed, why is signing Robak an absolute no brainer? I don't care if he was the best defender in Utica last season, Utica can sign him. The last time Robak played in the NHL was... well... when he was 24. We already have Biega. At this point Robak's NHL potential is pretty much zilch. Biega is a rarity (helped by the expansion draft).

This should be pretty self-explanatory.

There is a reason EVERY SINGLE NHL ORGANIZATION has 2-3 guys like Robak on NHL contracts. The guy represents competent depth. He's played 50 NHL games and won't embarrass himself if we get some injuries and need a body.

Last year, we called up Subban, McEneny, and Pedan at various points who either a) weren't ready for NHL action or b) were terrible and Willie (rightly) had no confidence in them and refused to play them. It was bad for the NHL squad and bad for the development of those players. Those callups should have gone to a player like Robak who would be more effective if played and a much better choice to sit in an NHL pressbox.

Moreover, the fact that we were able to get a player of Robak's calibre on an AHL deal last year was dumb luck and good work by the Utica staff. Again, EVERY NHL TEAM pays 2-3 guys like this on NHL deals to act as partners/mentors to younger prospect defenders.

Like, this stuff is simple Roster Building 101. It should be the most basic thing to an NHL executive like putting on your pants in the morning, and Benning just can't get it right. Our team last year, even with 0 injuries on the NHL squad, had 0 guys who represented reliable/veteran/experienced callups on the farm. That's just completely inexcusable, and they got very lucky that Stecher developed far quicker than expected.

Just to be clear, my position is that if a prospect/player has no NHL potential and won't be called up, there's no point giving him an NHL contract unless you really think he's good for the kid's development (even then the first choice is for the AHL team to sign him). So no I'm not saying Pedan is a good signing just like I wouldn't say Robak is a good signing if the Canucks choose to sign him. But between Pedan and Robak, I'm personally going with Pedan. I rather give one last shot to a 24 year old Dman who has shown some promise in the past whose injuries have effected his development than a 27 year old who just never panned out. Plus, Pedan doesn't count as a vet in the AHL.

You're just defaulting to 'YOUNGER IS BETTER' without really giving it any real thought.

Think about how you build a team. We have 4 young, inexperienced (or needing defensive work) prospects we'd like to have taking a regular shift next year in the AHL in Subban, McEneny, Brisebois, and Chatfield. That's a lot, and you need to be filling out your blueline with reliable experienced AHL guys to serve as partners to those guys and help them along. You can't dress 6 prospects on D in the AHL unless you want your team to go 20-60.

A guy like Robak serves two purposes - he's a great partner for a young player (helped McEneny immensely last year) and he's, as mentioned previously, a solid 9th-10th guy on your depth chart to call up when injuries hit.

Pedan serves no purpose. He's a bust as a prospect, he needs sheltering himself and a calming partner in the AHL, and he isn't a guy you can call up.

And '24 year old who has shown some promise in the past' is just one of those things that sound nice but have no actual substance. Again, please give some examples of players who were healthy scratches after 4 years in the AHL and then turned out to have some NHL utility.

I think Pedan is a better "prospect" as in if (a huge if) Pedan reverses his regression Pedan has a shot at playing some games for the Canucks. I'm not too familiar with Helgeson but like Robak he will be 27 and I believe doesn't have Pedan's skating and puck skills? McIlrath doesn't have Pedan's skating and puck skills but if the team was looking strictly for a size/toughness/fighter then I agree McIlrath is the better Dman.

Pedan is a ****ing terrible skater. Like, awful.

The fact he won a skating lap competition means as much as Donald Brashear once winning the same competition up here when Bure and Mogilny were both on the team. In terms of actual functional skating skills for a pro defender, he's awful. He's stiff-hipped, has a lousy first step and agility/lateral movement, and his footwork is just completely brutal. Plus he's dumb as a sack of hammers.

A guy like Helgeson is a top-4 reliable high-IQ defensive defender at the AHL level. He's just a better player than Pedan by a wide margin.

The reality is that a lot of times it's "who the coach will play." This signing is more or less to give Green options if need be. Benning isn't going to get into an argument with Green if he prefers Pedan to Subban or McEneny for example. It might be a different story if Green keeps playing Pedan and scratching Juolevi for instance. Like it or not, Pedan is the "Dman with size" that the Canucks chose to have as "depth." They aren't going to sign someone else to fill that role and the Canucks don't have anyone on the farm who comes remotely close to being physical on the backend.

This paragraph is just mind-boggling. First off, Green was healthy-scratching Pedan regularly this year in a much worse league, so the notion that he wants him on his NHL roster is completely bizarre.

Second, your GM had damn well better be getting into a discussion with his coach if the coach prefers playing an awful player to an effective one.

Third, the bolded is just ridiculous. What you've just written is the WHOLE FREAKING PROBLEM. Choosing to keep a guy who is so bad he can't stay in an AHL lineup as 'size' on an NHL roster is absolutely idiotic. And so is the decision to just blindly sign this bad player instead of trying to sign actual decent options for that role in the summer.

It's the same thing as saying this: "Like it or not, Wacey Hamilton is the "winger with speed" that the Canucks chose to have as "depth." They aren't going to sign someone else to fill that role and the Canucks don't have anyone on the farm who comes remotely close to being fast on the wing"

Just because the Canucks might be making a brutal decision to keep a bad player on their NHL roster doesn't mean it just should be blindly defended because 'they aren't going to do anything else'. Like, do you read what you're writing? We should just support obvious bad moves because that's what the team has done and they aren't going to try something smarter and different?

It really isn't. But you're making it out to be one.

I've said repeatedly that this is a small transaction.

But the terrible team-building in Utica and terrible depth in the organization came up as an issue repeatedly last year, and Benning himself has admitted he didn't do enough to provide quality depth. And moves like this show he's learned nothing.

 

[mathonwy]

 

[VanJack]

If the Canucks are as bad as people seem to think they'll be, then I could see them dangling guys like Gudbranson, Weircioch or even Del Zotto at the trade deadline....which at the very least probably means guys like Pedan, McEneny and Subban could be needed by the Canucks in 'garbage time' late in the year.

At this point you have to wonder if Pedan is the kind of player who'll ever learn to process the game at the NHL-level....but I guess Green knows him and will give him every chance to do it.

 

[MS]

If the Canucks are as bad as people seem to think they'll be, then I could see them dangling guys like Gudbranson, Weircioch or even Del Zotto at the trade deadline....which at the very least probably means guys like Pedan, McEneny and Subban could be needed by the Canucks in 'garbage time' late in the year.

At this point you have to wonder if Pedan is the kind of player who'll ever learn to process the game at the NHL-level....but I guess Green knows him and will give him every chance to do it.

Green was healthy-scratching in the AHL in the 2nd half of last season. The guy couldn't stick in Utica's lineup as a 3rd pairing defender in the AHL. I'm not sure where this notion that Green will somehow play him in the NHL because he was scratching him in the AHL comes from.

He's a terrible, terrible player who can't skate, has no skill, and can't process the game at this level. If he makes this team, he'll be the worst roster player in the entire NHL.

 

[drivier]

Green was healthy-scratching in the AHL in the 2nd half of last season. The guy couldn't stick in Utica's lineup as a 3rd pairing defender in the AHL. I'm not sure where this notion that Green will somehow play him in the NHL because he was scratching him in the AHL comes from.

He's a terrible, terrible player who can't skate, has no skill, and can't process the game at this level. If he makes this team, he'll be the worst roster player in the entire NHL.

I see your hyperbole. And I raise you evidence to the contrary:

I would argue he has the raw skill-set to be a horse. The reason he hasn't developed lay with the Islanders and Canucks (including Green).

 

[tantalum]

Fastest skater in a lap around the ice is something completely different to the speed and skating ability you need to be an effective defender (not to mention IQ and positioning). MS and others have explained their reasoning on the skating aspect several times for various players and I'd be shocked if Pedan wasn't one of those players.

Fans get excited seeing big numbers on radar guns. In an actual game that shot speed means very little if it isn't accurate, can't get it off in time, or you aren't in position to take the shot in the first place. The actual shot speed is pretty much the least important thing when it comes to shooting.

Whether you believe that or not, none of that undoes the FACT he was a healthy scratch in the AHL last year the back half of the year.

 

[MS]

I see your hyperbole. And I raise you evidence to the contrary:

I would argue he has the raw skill-set to be a horse. The reason he hasn't developed lay with the Islanders and Canucks (including Green).

That skating competition being used as evidence of his being a good skater is such rubbish. I'll quote myself from a few months back :

Pedan is a ****ing terrible skater. Like, awful.

The fact he won a skating lap competition means as much as Donald Brashear once winning the same competition up here when Bure and Mogilny were both on the team. In terms of actual functional skating skills for a pro defender, he's awful. He's stiff-hipped, has a lousy first step and agility/lateral movement, and his footwork is just completely brutal. Plus he's dumb as a sack of hammers.

He might be fairly quick in a straight line. In ways that *actually matter* for an NHL defender, he's absolutely godawful. His footwork is ECHL-calibre. And it's magnified by how dumb he is on the ice.

And no, this isn't hyperbole. The guy, again, couldn't hold down a 3rd pairing job in the AHL last year without being a regular healthy scratch.

He didn't develop because he's a bad player. He's a big guy who is athletic so he can shoot the puck hard (to little end, same as Gudbranson) and skate fast in a straight line but he's bad at absolutely every other aspect of the sport. And he's 24 years old and this isn't going to magically change at this point.

 

[MS]

Fastest skater in a lap around the ice is something completely different to the speed and skating ability you need to be an effective defender (not to mention IQ and positioning). MS and others have explained their reasoning on the skating aspect several times for various players and I'd be shocked if Pedan wasn't one of those players.

Fans get excited seeing big numbers on radar guns. In an actual game that shot speed means very little if it isn't accurate, can't get it off in time, or you aren't in position to take the shot in the first place. The actual shot speed is pretty much the least important thing when it comes to shooting.

Whether you believe that or not, none of that undoes the FACT he was a healthy scratch in the AHL last year the back half of the year.

Exactly.

Fans get excited about the wrong things. You shouldn't have to look further than Gudbranson to understand that being able to shoot a puck 100 MPH with nobody standing around you is completely pointless unless you have the intelligence and mobility to actually use that skill.

Skating for an NHL defender is stops and starts, quick accelerations, pivots and crossovers, and mostly skating backward. Being able to do that well is what matters, not skating really fast in a straight line with nobody around you and no puck on your stick. And Pedan is absolutely brutal at that kind of skating.

And yeah, the fact that the guy couldn't hold down a regular AHL job in his 4th pro season should tell anyone all they need to know. This isn't an NHL player, or anything close to it.

 

[vancityluongo]

Or put another way, there's a reason why McGregor didn't beat Mayweather despite being bigger, younger and stronger.

 

[drivier]

That skating competition being used as evidence of his being a good skater is such rubbish. I'll quote myself from a few months back :



He might be fairly quick in a straight line. In ways that *actually matter* for an NHL defender, he's absolutely godawful. His footwork is ECHL-calibre. And it's magnified by how dumb he is on the ice.

And no, this isn't hyperbole. The guy, again, couldn't hold down a 3rd pairing job in the AHL last year without being a regular healthy scratch.

He didn't develop because he's a bad player. He's a big guy who is athletic so he can shoot the puck hard (to little end, same as Gudbranson) and skate fast in a straight line but he's bad at absolutely every other aspect of the sport. And he's 24 years old and this isn't going to magically change at this point.

Well.. to be fair, he must have at least an above average cross over skating forward and to the left in addition to moving straight to get that time.

Reality: 24 year old with above average NHL speed, physicality, and shot and below NHL average agility and is frequently out of position (which is either his poor agility being a contributor to him getting twisted up and out of position or he just doesn't get it intellectually which is a different issue).

If your term for *actually matters* equals what I think it does in agility. I can agree with you on that.. he has sub-par foot speed for the NHL.

That said, I bet you dollars to donuts that if I go back and look at large defensemen who had serviceable (if not exemplary) careers, there is a slow growth curve. 24 year old Chara of the Islanders with his -27 comes to mind.

I'm not saying Pedan is Chara. But, if it is true that with a larger body it takes time to reach potential, then he has the skill-set to get to at least bottom pairing and potentially a 3-4 defensemen for a good 5 year run. Nothing wrong with that at all. What I am saying was hyperbole in response to your hyperbole. He isn't as bad as you say. There remains a modicum of hope.

I still think he's worth the investment. We have a couple years yet.

 

[mathonwy]

All the tools, no tool box.

Pedan, Sbisa, Bartkowski, Vey, Etem, Sutter, Dorsett....

 

[MS]

Well.. to be fair, he must have at least an above average cross over skating forward and to the left in addition to moving straight to get that time.

Reality: 24 year old with above average NHL speed, physicality, and shot and below NHL average agility and is frequently out of position (which is either his poor agility being a contributor to him getting twisted up and out of position or he just doesn't get it intellectually which is a different issue).

If your term for *actually matters* equals what I think it does in agility. I can agree with you on that.. he has sub-par foot speed for the NHL.

That said, I bet you dollars to donuts that if I go back and look at large defensemen who had serviceable (if not exemplary) careers, there is a slow growth curve. 24 year old Chara of the Islanders with his -27 comes to mind.

I'm not saying Pedan is Chara. But, if it is true that with a larger body it takes time to reach potential, then he has the skill-set to get to at least bottom pairing and potentially a 3-4 defensemen for a good 5 year run. Nothing wrong with that at all. What I am saying was hyperbole in response to your hyperbole. He isn't as bad as you say. There remains a modicum of hope.

I still think he's worth the investment. We have a couple years yet.

Zdeno Chara was playing top-pairing shutdown minutes in the NHL at age 22. Pedan is a healthy scratch in the AHL at age 24.

Players who are healthy scratches at this point of their careers don't make it in the NHL. Ever. I'd be surprised if you can find a single player who was a regular healthy scratch in their 4th AHL season and then went on to become a serviceable NHLer.

Potentially a 3-4 defender? Are you serious? It would be a feat if he became that in the AHL, never mind the NHL.

Again, the guy is an atrocious skater for an NHL defender, has the hockey sense of a fire hydrant, and has no skill level outside of a hard shot that he can't do anything with. He's a bad player and a bad prospect and he should have been turfed out of the organization this summer.

 

[RobertKron]

Well.. to be fair, he must have at least an above average cross over skating forward and to the left in addition to moving straight to get that time.

Reality: 24 year old with above average NHL speed, physicality, and shot and below NHL average agility and is frequently out of position (which is either his poor agility being a contributor to him getting twisted up and out of position or he just doesn't get it intellectually which is a different issue).

If your term for *actually matters* equals what I think it does in agility. I can agree with you on that.. he has sub-par foot speed for the NHL.

That said, I bet you dollars to donuts that if I go back and look at large defensemen who had serviceable (if not exemplary) careers, there is a slow growth curve. 24 year old Chara of the Islanders with his -27 comes to mind.

I'm not saying Pedan is Chara. But, if it is true that with a larger body it takes time to reach potential, then he has the skill-set to get to at least bottom pairing and potentially a 3-4 defensemen for a good 5 year run. Nothing wrong with that at all. What I am saying was hyperbole in response to your hyperbole. He isn't as bad as you say. There remains a modicum of hope.

I still think he's worth the investment. We have a couple years yet.

Chara played his 24yo season in Ottawa and was like +30. As MS has already pointed out, Chara played a top pairing role from early on, and unsurprisingly his results improved immediately when he went to a less awful team. The idea that guys are bad and suddenly just get really good is weird.

 

[drivier]

Zdeno Chara was playing top-pairing shutdown minutes in the NHL at age 22. Pedan is a healthy scratch in the AHL at age 24.

Selective reading is a killer. Let me help you. I said (in anticipation it would be your default argument and to try to keep you on track) the following: "I'm not saying Pedan is Chara." I went on to qualify the statement highlighting that bigger players take longer to develop... Chara was the same. (To qualify Chara was getting top shutdown minutes at 22 and then declined to 3-4 pairing for the majority behind Hamrlik, Jonsson, and Galley when he was healthy.. but I get your point).

Players who are healthy scratches at this point of their careers don't make it in the NHL. Ever. I'd be surprised if you can find a single player who was a regular healthy scratch in their 4th AHL season and then went on to become a serviceable NHLer.

Since 2010, there have been 73 defencemen debuts in the NHL by 24/25 year olds another 42 that debuted at 26+.

But, of those 115 defencemen and those like Pedan that debuted but were sent down... you want to say that none of them was a healthy scratch from their 4th+ AHL season onwards? None? Ever? I'll take the bet. Then, I'll prove you're wrong.

I get it though.. exaggeration for effect. It may be the majority of healthy scratched AHL'ers do not make it. I could see that being true. But, I go back to my "tools are there and he's a big body.. give him time" statements.

Besides, if he does make it.. he's a nice 5/6 to have (although we Canucks fans will hate him because all d-men must win a Norris).

Potentially a 3-4 defender? Are you serious? It would be a feat if he became that in the AHL, never mind the NHL.

That's as far as his potential takes him as I see it. Probable 5-6. Objective scouting sources seem to say similar things. He's not a dead man walking.

Again, the guy is an atrocious skater for an NHL defender...

Only true with qualification that we must ignore his wide open speed.

...has the hockey sense of a fire hydrant...

Difficult to qualify. I was always told I had a great hockey IQ. I think I was told that only because my hands were garbage. I think the inverse applies here... you say he has no hockey sense.. because he does have poor agility. Could be just one or the other. I admit he gets out of position frequently but I haven't been able to ascertain if issue is in his head. He did seem relatively adept at clearing up from the hashmarks in.. but it was rushes that he seemed out to lunch on. Still potential.

... and has no skill level outside of a hard shot that he can't do anything with. He's a bad player and a bad prospect and he should have been turfed out of the organization this summer.

OK. So... he's a non-roster player earning $750k with one year left. I wouldn't object to a one year addition (but I suspect we'll take a younger non-roster flyer)... we can't really turf him given the contract.

Tools vs. Toolbox Comment applies still he has a shot. I'd hate to Kassian the kid and drive another potential asset out because he won't win a Norris.

Not his expectation nor his reality. But, 5-6 is still doable.

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

Wasn't there a statement that his fastest skater time was faulty/in-error?

I can't find anything now, but I seem to remember some local outlet saying something about it and it seemed to fall through the cracks.