Post-Game Talk: (and part 2) #80: Maple Leafs at Flyers, Thursday, April 7, 2016

[blinds]

Oh, boy.

I really hope you meant to say hockey isn't 100% random or hockey isn't entirely random. Because yes, there exists quite a bit of randomness in hockey. I'd argue more than any other major sport.

..Clearly. You guys really don't need to be this pedantic. Obviously there's chance in everything. I mentioned I wasn't talking about bounces.

The point I was making is Voracek isn't playing bad by chance, he's making poor decisions and executing decisions poorly. A hurt foot doesn't affect your decision making, and shouldn't have such a large affect on your passing and shooting ability. Guy is just terrible with the puck right now.

 

[Random Forest]

He got 137 out of 137 votes just a few weeks back.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2047811&highlight=expansion+draft

Yep. Like I said, attention span of gnats for many on here.

..Clearly. You guys really don't need to be this pedantic. Obviously there's chance in everything. I mentioned I wasn't talking about bounces.

The point I was making is Voracek isn't playing bad by chance, he's making poor decisions and executing decisions poorly. A hurt foot doesn't affect your decision making, and shouldn't have such a large affect on your passing and shooting ability. Guy is just terrible with the puck right now.

Really? Of course a hurt foot will affect those things. If the guy can't move at 100%, how does that not affect his timing or his strength?

A hurt foot can mean he's not getting to places on the ice as quick as he would have before, so his options are inherently weaker than they would be if he were healthy. That means he makes "poor decisions and executes poorly" because he simply isn't getting the same looks as before.

And frankly, that's much more likely than any asinine theory where Voracek just forgot how to play hockey.

 

[Rebels57]

The Voracek hysteria has reached out-of-control levels.

The guy had laughably unsustainable SH% numbers to start the year, finally recovered, then got injured and was forced to come back too early. And he's still pacing for 60 ****ing points. In a worst case scenario kind of year for him.

I know a lot of the dolts on here don't have attention spans or memories large enough to remember things further back than one week ago, but Voracek was an elite player last season and for much of this one.

The guy comes back from injury, doesn't perform at the same level, and we have people suggesting he wouldn't even get plucked if left unprotected in an expansion draft.

What happened to this forum?

As much as the bashing Voracek has been extreme by some, myself included at times, the defending him has been just as extreme by others. This is a prime example. When most players come back from injury, they are still able to receive a pass, or not overskate the puck, or not let a puck coming up the wall get past him..

His head, hands, and feet are all in different galaxies right now.

Yes. He was injured. Yes. He has not played well since returning from said injury. I mean, the guy is overskating pucks in the neutral zone when there is no one else within 10 feet at times.

Jake was a 1ST TEAM ALL-STAR LAST SEASON AT RIGHT WING.

He should be able to come back from injury and get into the flow within a few games. It's been more than a few games.

 

[blinds]

^ Good post, I have nothing to add in response. Dude's playing worse than what his injury can excuse.

The Voracek hysteria has reached out-of-control levels.

The guy had laughably unsustainable SH% numbers to start the year, finally recovered, then got injured and was forced to come back too early. And he's still pacing for 60 ****ing points. In a worst case scenario kind of year for him.

I know a lot of the dolts on here don't have attention spans or memories large enough to remember things further back than one week ago, but Voracek was an elite player last season and for much of this one.

The guy comes back from injury, doesn't perform at the same level, and we have people suggesting he wouldn't even get plucked if left unprotected in an expansion draft.

What happened to this forum?

I mean, I don't think anyone is really suggesting he's a bad player, just that he isn't playing up to expectations. Yes, there's mitigating circumstances, but he's still playing below what's expected even factoring those in. It's concerning for a guy that just signed the 2nd biggest contract on your team, but dude's clearly capable of being a top 10 winger when he's playing well.

I don't think its unfair to criticize Voracek when he's playing poorly while the team needs him to play well. Sure, he's been great in the past, and he'll be great in the future, but that doesn't help us now.

I really don't understand this mentality that pops up that good players are above criticism.

 

[Rebels57]

^ Good post, I have nothing to add in response. Dude's playing worse than what his injury can excuse.



I mean, I don't think anyone is really suggesting he's a bad player, just that he isn't playing up to expectations. Yes, there's mitigating circumstances, but he's still playing below what's expected even factoring those in. It's concerning for a guy that just signed the 2nd biggest contract on your team, but dude's clearly capable of being a top 10 winger when he's playing well.

I don't think its unfair to criticize Voracek when he's playing poorly while the team needs him to play well. Sure, he's been great in the past, and he'll be great in the future, but that doesn't help us now.

I really don't understand this mentality that pops up that good players are above criticism.

Bad hockey is bad hockey. If you are not well enough to play good hockey. You should not play any hockey. This falls at the feet of coaching and training too, if in fact his foot is part of the reason he is playing like ass.

 

[Larry44]

..Clearly. You guys really don't need to be this pedantic. Obviously there's chance in everything. I mentioned I wasn't talking about bounces.

The point I was making is Voracek isn't playing bad by chance, he's making poor decisions and executing decisions poorly. A hurt foot doesn't affect your decision making, and shouldn't have such a large affect on your passing and shooting ability. Guy is just terrible with the puck right now.

If you don't think having a broken foot (or similar issue) isn't going to affect your shooting, and everything else about your game, you are wrong. Really, when your foot is in agony and not functioning, it's going to make everything difficult - including getting some practice in to keep your hands sharp. It also makes escapability a concern, so you have to worry more about getting drilled if you can't hop out of they way like you usually do.

I'm prepared to give Jake all the slack he needs.

As Greg Millen, said on the Sportsnet broadcast last night, if the Flyers were not in a life or death race for the playoffs, it is 100% certain that Voracek would not be playing last night, never mind all the other games he's been in since he came back. He is still injured and giving it his best. He hit the post on a PP one-timer last night that could've made a big difference.

 

[Curufinwe]

He could well have a high ankle sprain, which are notoriously difficult to play thru.

Bad hockey is bad hockey. If you are not well enough to play good hockey. You should not play any hockey. This falls at the feet of coaching and training too, if in fact his foot is part of the reason he is playing like ass.

You're forgetting that less than a week ago he played good hockey on the top PP unit that scored all three goals in the win over the Senators without which we'd already be eliminated.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I really don't understand this mentality that pops up that good players are above criticism.

They aren't. But it would be nice if it could be reasonable criticism that takes everything into account, including reasons for his play.

 

[Random Forest]

No one is remotely suggesting Voracek is playing good hockey or that we should not be critical of his play. We are saying that you greatly underestimate how debilitating an injury can be and the negative impact it can have on performance. And that the criticisms levied here are over the top.

Suggesting that he should simply "get back into the flow" after a couple games is sheer lunacy. You don't know how bad the injury was. If you want to say he shouldn't be playing if he's not healthy, then fine, that's one thing, but the insinuation that Voracek somehow forgot how to play is just laughable.

Making poor decisions, bad passes, overskating the puck, bad timing, etc. absolutely can be caused by injury. You have four+ years of observation suggesting Voracek is a good hockey player. Then he returns from injury, plays poorly, and people say he should just "figure it out".

What would you say if it's released after the season that Voracek was playing on a broken foot? At what point does it excuse his performance?

 

[Rebels57]

If you don't think having a broken foot (or similar issue) isn't going to affect your shooting, and everything else about your game, you are wrong. Really, when your foot is in agony and not functioning, it's going to make everything difficult - including getting some practice in to keep your hands sharp. It also makes escapability a concern, so you have to worry more about getting drilled if you can't hop out of they way like you usually do.

I'm prepared to give Jake all the slack he needs.

As Greg Millen, said on the Sportsnet broadcast last night, if the Flyers were not in a life or death race for the playoffs, it is 100% certain that Voracek would not be playing last night, never mind all the other games he's been in since he came back. He is still injured and giving it his best. He hit the post on a PP one-timer last night that could've made a big difference.

He should not be playing then.

The 2nd line was scoring regularly when it was Raffl-Couturier-Gagner. We were talking about offering him another 1 year deal! Hell, the 3rd line was chipping in too during that stretch when it was Laughton-Cousins-Read.

No reason to have Jake in the lineup if he is agony. He sucks when he is in agony.

 

[Rebels57]

He could well have a high ankle sprain, which are notoriously difficult to play thru.



You're forgetting that less than a week ago he played good hockey on the top PP unit that scored all three goals in the win over the Senators without which we'd already be eliminated.

To be honest, I missed that game. Baby shower for my wife.

 

[Rebels57]

Okay. I am willing to say that Jake has a valid excuse for playing like an unwashed ass hole.

Now. Why play him? What is the point of having a detriment to the team playing? As he was during the Detroit game, when he botched an easy pass around the wall that led to a shorthanded breakaway goal against. Even factoring in the good game against Ottawa, the bad has been more than the good..

 

[bennysflyers16]

No one is remotely suggesting Voracek is playing good hockey or that we should not be critical of his play. We are saying that you greatly underestimate how debilitating an injury can be and the negative impact it can have on performance. And that the criticisms levied here are over the top.

Suggesting that he should simply "get back into the flow" after a couple games is sheer lunacy. You don't know how bad the injury was. If you want to say he shouldn't be playing if he's not healthy, then fine, that's one thing, but the insinuation that Voracek somehow forgot how to play is just laughable.

Making poor decisions, bad passes, overskating the puck, bad timing, etc. absolutely can be caused by injury. You have four+ years of observation suggesting Voracek is a good hockey player. Then he returns from injury, plays poorly, and people suddenly consider him a bad hockey player.

What would you say if it's released after the season that Voracek was playing on a broken foot? At what point does it excuse his performance?

With him in a boot, it is almost certainly a broken foot. But thing is, it is quite apparent he is hurting, and even his biggest defenders mention it during the GDT that he isn't helping the team, so why is he playing ? The team was playing very well with out him. That is most frustrating part for me, it appears he is no more than 75%, so why play him ?

 

[renberg]

Why, it's almost like we have a roster with poor depth.

Is it really choking, or is it the inevitable result of a team relying heavily on a small handful of players to mask glaring deficiencies for months? They succeeded for a bit, but it's not exactly a sustainable thing. There was going to be a collapse at some point when the vital players hit a cold streak and we still didn't have the depth to mask them.

The timing is deeply disappointing, sure, but it was gonna happen. Maybe for long-term quality of Fanlife it's better for us that we won't be getting swept by the Caps. We can remember 2008 for a bit longer and not have Rivalry Night promos end on a poopy note for us.

Both posts are a decent analysis of where the Flyers at this time.
The defense, which was never deep to begin with, could not withstand the loss of MDZ.
The offense doesn't score enough. The Flyers do not have snipers, which really becomes apparent in the SOs.
If it wasn't for Mason and Neuvy playing lights outmost nights, this team would be hot in the lottery chase.
The team defense is better this season than last but it still leaves a lot to be desired. There are too many times when defensive coverages are blown both up front and on the back end.
There just isn't the talent on the roster yet to carry a team into the POs. Maybe next season there will be but Unless Hexy signs some FA talent, I don't see them as a PO team until the 17-18 season. The young guys are coming but the will need a bit of time to mature into contributing NHLers.

 

[Rebels57]

With him in a boot, it is almost certainly a broken foot. But thing is, it is quite apparent he is hurting, and even his biggest defenders mention it during the GDT that he isn't helping the team, so why is he playing ? The team was playing very well with out him. That is most frustrating part for me, it appears he is no more than 75%, so why play him ?

Yes. We are worse with this current version of Jake than we were when he was out injured. Hell, we were cruising when he was injured.

 

[Larry44]

It would be truly ironic if the Flyers miss the playoffs because they dropped 3 of 4 points to the Leafs down the stretch, then won the lottery and picked a head of the tankers....

 

[Random Forest]

Why is he playing? Well, that's a question only the coaches, trainers, and Voracek can answer. I only bristled at the ridiculous notion that Voracek should simply "figure it out" or that he should be expected to easily find his flow regardless of mitigating factors.

Yes. We are worse with this current version of Jake than we were when he was out injured. Hell, we were cruising when he was injured.

I also take issue with your implication here. Yes, we were cruising, but it's unlikely we would have continued cruising indefinitely if not for Voracek's return. The idea that Voracek is single handedly ruining the team right now isn't accurate. Lots of things have gone wrong in the last handful of games. There's no reason to believe we would have continued the same pace if Voracek was left out.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's like saying MacDonald is better than MDZ because our record since MDZ's injury is better than before. But it's not that simple.

Yes. We are worse with this current version of Jake than we were when he was out injured. Hell, we were cruising when he was injured.

No, we aren't. I don't think the top PP unit scored a single goal when he was out of the lineup.

 

[AndHeMissedTheNet]

No, we aren't. I don't think the top PP unit scored a single goal when he was out of the lineup.

As opposed to how dominant and successful the PP is now, right?

 

[Curufinwe]

As opposed to how dominant and successful the PP is now, right?

As I already said, without its three goals on Saturday we'd be pretty much out of the playoffs already.

 

[Rebels57]

It's like saying MacDonald is better than MDZ because our record since MDZ's injury is better than before. But it's not that simple.



No, we aren't. I don't think the top PP unit scored a single goal when he was out of the lineup.

Correct me if I am wrong, but we went 7-1-1 in the 9 games Voracek missed with his foot injury, with 2 wins over Tampa Bay, 1 win over Chicago, and 1 win over Detroit mixed in. We have gone 5-4-2 in the 11 games since he returned, with losses to Toronto, Arizona, and Columbus mixed in.

There are obviously other factors involved, like our schedule, and a drop in play from other players..but that 9 game stretch was one of our best of the season.

 

[Rebels57]

As I already said, without its three goals on Saturday we'd be pretty much out of the playoffs already.

Or if it contributed at a better rate in other games, we would be easily in..

 

[Random Forest]

Correct me if I am wrong, but we went 7-1-1 in the 9 games Voracek missed with his foot injury, with 2 wins over Tampa Bay, 1 win over Chicago, and 1 win over Detroit mixed in. We have gone 5-4-2 in the 11 games since he returned, with losses to Toronto, Arizona, and Columbus mixed in.

There are obviously other factors involved, like our schedule, and a drop in play from other players..but that 9 game stretch was one of our best of the season.

You greatly underestimate the amount of variables at play that make up such streaks if you are implying full causality between the Flyers recent stretch and Voracek's return.

 

[Rebels57]

You greatly underestimate the amount of variables at play that make up such streaks if you are implying full causality between the Flyers recent stretch and Voracek's return.

I did say "There are obviously other factors involved, like our schedule, and a drop in play from other players"

His play is just one factor, but it's most definitely a big one.

 

[Random Forest]

I did say "There are obviously other factors involved, like our schedule, and a drop in play from other players"

His play is just one factor, but it's most definitely a big one.

Yes, but "big" is a very nebulous way of characterizing the relative impact of his presence here.

My point is that, especially in hockey, there are so many variables at play that any single one (eg, Voracek being in the lineup) explains only a sliver of the outcomes. I mean, how much of that drop do you think is due to Voracek? 5%? 10%? It's can't be much more than that because there are so many other factors (eg, PP failure, fatigue, lineup decisions, uncontrollable factors for the opposition, etc.) at play here. Even if Voracek is the single "biggest" of those factors, it really isn't enough by itself to explain the drop.

That's why I take issue with people who choose to use one issue as a scapegoat for such struggles. It's an easy target. And it's one worth discussing, but I think it's beaten to death and drastically overstated by some.


FWIW, by my evaluation, fatigue is the single biggest factor right now, not Voracek.