Analyzing Dubas's performance - (Full Analysis)

[Dekes For Days]

the problem is Dubie gave 8yr term money for short term contracts

He did not do that.

 

[hotpaws]

Its easier to tell you what wasn’t. Click! Dial-tone! No we don’t want any. No just kidding. You are just always picking the negative to run with. Its likely never as bad as you make it or as rosey as i make it seem. Your language like incompetence etc is right overboard. No need for anyone. You just like the effect of words. So feed yer ego man

my post was neither negative or positive , it was just stating facts and if they look negative then obviously the facts don't shed a positive light on the deals Dubas gave out

 

[Wafflewhipper]

the problem is Dubie gave 8yr term money for short term contracts

i understand that as a fan of an employee as opposed to the team you wouldn't have an issues with that but for those of us who cheer for the team it does piss us off

Jeez I’m glad they managed to be one of the leagues highest scoring teams with a bad year from our #1 goalie, oodles of injuries in critical areas and maintained a playoff spot then.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

my post was neither negative or positive , it was just stating facts and if they look negative then obviously the facts don't shed a positive light on the deals Dubas gave out

You are complaining about contracts of elite players on your-team! Gather that in for a second and try enjoying. Marner is worth his money. Compares really well with the best right wingers in the game in this are at the 21 and 22 year old years. Just one of the best. If he is not one of the best at the end of the short term you don’t like, he can leave or get more money.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

5 out of the 8 were ufa's when they signed and out of the 3 rfa's only Mathews signed for less than max term like Marner and all 3 are C's which i'm told on this board are worth more the wingers

Marner is much more than slightly overpaid regardless of how you try to spin it .

I don't care if he was an RFA and others were UFA's. It means nothing. If he is in the top 15 in scoring 2 years in a row, he deserves to be paid like it. Guys like Makar and Hughes are going to get paid big contracts after next season. Why? Because they are already producing in the elite class and they will get paid more than a Dman that is going to be UFA and is producing less.

I agree that Centers are generally valued more as it is a tougher position but players are paid based on production. That's why Marner is paid more than a guy like Monahan. Marner is producing among elite talent while even though Monahan is a 1C he isnt an elite player.

Like I said Marner should've been around 9.5 which would be an overpay of just under 1.4M. That is not more than a slight overpay for a top 15 producer. Its not like he is producing like a 60 pt player who would be around 5-6M.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Dubas just signed the two most highly recruited free agents,one at each position of forward and defense out of the KHL successfully. That says he has a great team established in helping him.

Next season it will be his team from a fresh start with no bad contracts to move,established core for years etc. He’s done some really nice work so far. Needs to toughen up the composition and then he will likely have a serious contender. It would look really good for him if his first picks in Sandin and Robertson are a big part of that. This guy has potential to be viewed as a real innovator down the road. He is seen as that now but needs the success to back the idea that he could be very smart at his craft

 

[hotpaws]

I don't care if he was an RFA and others were UFA's. It means nothing. If he is in the top 15 in scoring 2 years in a row, he deserves to be paid like it. Guys like Makar and Hughes are going to get paid big contracts after next season. Why? Because they are already producing in the elite class and they will get paid more than a Dman that is going to be UFA and is producing less.

I agree that Centers are generally valued more as it is a tougher position but players are paid based on production. That's why Marner is paid more than a guy like Monahan. Marner is producing among elite talent while even though Monahan is a 1C he isnt an elite player.

Like I said Marner should've been around 9.5 which would be an overpay of just under 1.4M. That is not more than a slight overpay for a top 15 producer. Its not like he is producing like a 60 pt player who would be around 5-6M.

all that to agree with me that he's overpaid ? lol

this is what i've read on this board depending which deal people are trying to defend

-goal scorers are worth more than playmakers so ignore total points
-total points is how you base a contract on
-goals per 60 is a much better tool to base a contract on than total goals
-centers get paid more than wingers
-ufa's get paid more than rfa's
-rfa or ufa it makes no difference in contract demands
-length of term is matters when comparing deals
-length of term gets ignored when comparing deals

different thread , different excuse or i should say reason so i don't offend anyone lol as to why Dubas didn't really overpay our top 4 forwards

funny how it was just wait until Point/Rantanen/Aho sign and you'll see how they get the same as what Dubie gave out and now it's kicking the can down the road to Makar and Hughes lol while ignoring all the present comparable's since they make Dubie look like a weak bitch

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

all that to agree with me that he's overpaid ? lol

this is what i've read on this board depending which deal people are trying to defend

-goal scorers are worth more than playmakers so ignore total points
-total points is how you base a contract on
-goals per 60 is a much better tool to base a contract on than total goals
-centers get paid more than wingers
-ufa's get paid more than rfa's
-rfa or ufa it makes no difference in contract demands

different thread , different excuse or i should say reason so i don't offend anyone lol as to why Dubas didn't really overpay our top 4 forwards

funny how it was just wait until Point/Rantanen/Aho sign and you'll see how they get the same as what Dubie gave out and now it's kicking the can down the road to Makar and Hughes lol while ignoring all the present comparable's since they make Dubie look like a weak bitch

I never once said Marner wasn't overpaid. I compared him to other elite players that are getting similar $ and said he is right in the ball park with them.

I brought up makar and Hughes because they are among the next wave of players that will get paid based on production (like Marner) and not RFA/UFA status since you brought it up.

 

[666]

Interesting to see, Konecny is more valuable then our package but the others are not.

Didn't like it at the time still don't think it's great. Always thought Carrick was worth more then a 7th.

In terms of trading, Imo Dubas has done very well. Nothing necessarily poor and more wins then losses.

His drafting has been very good. IMO much better then past regimes.
​

Nice analysis. The last 4 times that you used the work "then" you should have used the word "than".

 

[hotpaws]

I never once said Marner wasn't overpaid. I compared him to other elite players that are getting similar $ and said he is right in the ball park with them.

I brought up makar and Hughes because they are among the next wave of players that will get paid based on production (like Marner) and not RFA/UFA status since you brought it up.

you just said he should have been at 9.5m in the post i responded too

and why look at what a couple of D are going to get paid down the road when we had plenty of forward comparable's this off season ?

 

[Menzinger]

so i'm guessing we should only treat the media rumors that are favorable to Dubas as 100%% verifiable fact , like the one that came out that SJ was rumored to have offered 13m per for JT ?

funny how you can ignore some rumors even going so far as saying Marner had no intention of signing even though Marners agent came out during the season and said Dubas low balled him in the summer which means there were having contract discussions even though you choose to believe otherwise for some reason

Dont put words in my mouth.

I said the rumors should treated as unverified - thats hardly a controversial position. Nothing in my previous post was in the slightest bit inaccurate.

I never denied they had contract discussions, i questioned the assertion that Marner 100% could have been locked up for 8.5x8.

Is Dubas supposedly low balling Marner supposed to be a negative thing lol?

The quality of rumors/insider gossip will vary from instance to instamce. You cant lump them all together. Some journalists have more credibility than others.

 

[Dekes For Days]

we had plenty of forward comparable's this off season

There were forward comparables this past offseason, and Marner was better than all of them.

 

[Golden_Jet]

He did not do that.

Too much money even if it was 8 year deals.
50% of cap on 4 players = too much money

 

[IPS]

Rantanen is IMO the closest and most sensible Marner comparable and Mitch outdid him by a good margin. I'm pretty confident in Mitch outproducing him going forward as well. Last year and the year before Rantanen got a shitload of PP minutes and that was the only thing keeping him up there with Marner.

Whether or not Mitch is going to be 1.4M better than Rantanen is very unlikely but the gap isn't nearly as big as I thought it would be when the contracts were first signed.

 

[Dekes For Days]

50% of cap on 4 players = too much money

Not true at all; not when you have players of this quality. It's all about the value you get out of that expenditure. Leafs are getting good value out of that cap space; more than what countless teams get out of 50% of their cap space. Dubas has also shown to be great at maintaining good, cap-efficient depth further down the lineup.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

you just said he should have been at 9.5m in the post i responded too

and why look at what a couple of D are going to get paid down the road when we had plenty of forward comparable's this off season ?

I used to 2 Dmen because they were the two guys off the top of my head who were coming up on their RFA contracts. Doesn't matter if it's a dman or forward, if they produce they're going to paid. Hughes and Makar are going to get paid like Elite D men. Compared to other D men. Just like Barzal and Pettersen will with other forwards. They will get paid based on their production.

Myself and others have already compared Marner to guys like Aho, Point and Rantanen. Marner got paid more than them and is also producing more than them. We've also compared him to the best players and highest paid players in the league and he is right there with them in production.

 

[rent free]

A bit of an overreaction, but most of these things would have happened. Also Tavares doesn't come here if Lou was GM

all of these are just assumptions. you have no proof he'd do this

 

[Wafflewhipper]

you just said he should have been at 9.5m in the post i responded too

and why look at what a couple of D are going to get paid down the road when we had plenty of forward comparable's this off season ?

Marner is not over overpaid. He’s great. I’ll flat out say he isn’t.

 

[rent free]

Marner is not over overpaid. He’s great. I’ll flat out say he isn’t.

i love this post

 

[hotpaws]

Dont put words in my mouth.

I said the rumors should treated as unverified - thats hardly a controversial position. Nothing in my previous post was in the slightest bit inaccurate.

I never denied they had contract discussions, i questioned the assertion that Marner 100% could have been locked up for 8.5x8.

Is Dubas supposedly low balling Marner supposed to be a negative thing lol?

The quality of rumors/insider gossip will vary from instance to instamce. You cant lump them all together. Some journalists have more credibility than others.

when the insiders come out and say it was "rumored" then it should all be lumped in one pile regardless of how it makes the GM look and regardless of who reported it , now if they say they have been told by a team official or wording to that affect then who reported comes into play

what i read here is

-team x was rumored to have offered JT more - 100% fact
-Marner was rumored to have been willing to sign for 8.5m x 8yrs - pure bullshit just to knock the greatest most perfect GM in the history of pro sports

and how did low balling MM work out for the team ?

Dubas thought he could throw a blank check at JT then do a "we vs me'' media campaign to get the kids who led us out of the toilet and to our best season ever to take sub market deals to make up for paying Johnny the 2nd highest cap hit in the league . Too bad it back fired and the kids took turns bending him over .

 

[hotpaws]

I used to 2 Dmen because they were the two guys off the top of my head who were coming up on their RFA contracts. Doesn't matter if it's a dman or forward, if they produce they're going to paid. Hughes and Makar are going to get paid like Elite D men. Compared to other D men. Just like Barzal and Pettersen will with other forwards. They will get paid based on their production.

Myself and others have already compared Marner to guys like Aho, Point and Rantanen. Marner got paid more than them and is also producing more than them. We've also compared him to the best players and highest paid players in the league and he is right there with them in production.

there's no comparable that comes close to the salary he gets unless of course you ignore

-position
-being a rfa without arb rights and not a ufa that can/could have shopped himself to the entire league
-term
-goals

and of course you only took the players making over 10m per for some reason and ignore players that are producing the same or more but for considerably less money

 

[hotpaws]

Marner is not over overpaid. He’s great. I’ll flat out say he isn’t.

so getting paid substantially more than any comparable isn't getting overpaid ?

and why say you think he's worth 9.5m if you don't think he's overpaid?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

so getting paid substantially more than any comparable isn't getting overpaid ?

and why say you think he's worth 9.5m if you don't think he's overpaid ?

Lol it wasn’t me who said it ha. I’ll say it again just so you know. Mitch Marner is not over overpaid. I’ll stick to that and come back in 4 years

 

[Martin Skoula]

all of these are just assumptions. you have no proof he'd do this

Other than, you know, just about every decision he made as a GM after the cap was implemented.

 

[hotpaws]

Lol it wasn’t me who said it ha. I’ll say it again just so you know. Mitch Marner is not over overpaid. I’ll stick to that and come back in 4 years

sorry , wrong poster

love Mitch but all our top 4 forwards are overpaid to varying degrees , doesn't mean their not good/great players , it just means they're overpaid based on the comparable's