Friedman: ANA - Leafs Montour

[Zegs2sendhelp]

i think the ducks have a ton of good-great pieces, they really lack an elite talent up front imo. and the new hc, rc is horibad.
A coach makes a huge difference i agree, look at the islanders they lost an elite player, sure other players stepped up but the isles are much better then last year cause of torts.

Exactly I think the young part of the roster is solid(like you said we lack an elite piece or 2)… and the fact that we have so much money invested in players that arnt going to help us win or do much goin further hurts... but might as well take the time to let those young pieces develop... and let a new coach change the mindset/style of play for the team and hopefully come back in a year or 2 with a high pick or 2, and potentially a high profile free agent. I think people over exaggerate how bad the situation is, just like a lot of people thought the islanders would be a bottom 10 team coming into the season with the loss of Tavares, but in reality they are doing better than they were with Tavares. Coaching does impact a team a lot, and RC really should never be allowed to step behind a NHL bench again... crazy how long hes stayed employed off the back of 1 cup with arguably 2 of the top 3 dmen of that time period.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Two All-Star (Top 6) Centers is more than literally any other team in the modern Salary Cap NHL excepting the Penguins and this years Capitals, so yes I'd say comfortably, two is a bunch in this context.

Washington, Tampa, Calgary, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia all have a top-2 center combo with comparable production to Toronto's top-2 (yeah, Matthews missed some games but those are games Johnsson could not have played with him anyway).

Players being voted for a joke of an all-star game doesn't mean anything when every team needs to send at least one rep.

 

[StephenPeat]

Well to be fair, some of it is. He's not going to put up 60 points playing on your typical 3rd line with 3rd line players. But then again, not many players would. Just like most "tweeners" wouldn't pace 60 points playing on the 1st line. It's one of those profoundly silly arguments that's based on the premise that either the acquiring team has no good players for him to play with, or we assume that the coach refuses to play him with them for reasons.

Here's the thing. He's not pacing for ~50PTs playing with 3rd line players, he's doing so with significant time with obviously Top Line players unless I'm not familiar with Tavares, Marner, and Matthews. I doubt any acquiring team is hoping to put Johnsson with similar players and I doubt they value him as a 60PT player because of it.

 

[StephenPeat]

Washington, Tampa, Calgary, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia all have a top-2 center combo with comparable production to Toronto's top-2 (yeah, Matthews missed some games but those are games Johnsson could not have played with him anyway).

Players being voted for a joke of an all-star game doesn't mean anything when every team needs to send at least one rep.

Which teams outside those I mentioned have Two (2) NHL All-Star caliber (meaning have participated in an All-Star Game) Top 6 Centers? Also which of those teams you listed would trade a Top 4D for Johnsson?

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Exactly I think the young part of the roster is solid(like you said we lack an elite piece or 2)… and the fact that we have so much money invested in players that arnt going to help us win or do much goin further hurts... but might as well take the time to let those young pieces develop... and let a new coach change the mindset/style of play for the team and hopefully come back in a year or 2 with a high pick or 2, and potentially a high profile free agent. I think people over exaggerate how bad the situation is, just like a lot of people thought the islanders would be a bottom 10 team coming into the season with the loss of Tavares, but in reality they are doing better than they were with Tavares. Coaching does impact a team a lot, and RC really should never be allowed to step behind a NHL bench again... crazy how long hes stayed employed off the back of 1 cup with arguably 2 of the top 3 dmen of that time period.

Just a matter of getting those pieces. Could be quick could take a bit of time. But yeah overall Anaheims in a fine spot.

 

[lwvs84]

The ducks have to tear it down. Their vets are older, Perry had a huge surgery, Kesler is almost Lupul 2.0 with injuries. Coming from a leaf fan who has seen when it's time to tear down..time is now. Now of course you dont give up all your young talent you off load the older guys..but they have huge $ signs attached. Basically your GM has to pick 1 to 3 D to keep build around the rest. Im sure you guys prefer Manson over Montour. I really wonder if we gave up Jake as part of the deal, and it hinged on him resigning if that would help a transaction happen.

But you don't tear it down dealing players like Montour... especially when there are likely no other top 4 RHD in the system. You deal Fowler who can eventually be replaced by guys internally. You build around Lindholm (the best d-man), Manson (unique skill set), and Montour (youngest of the top 4, highest offensive ceiling). Draft a (hopefully) high end center in the first round, replace the coach, and let the young guys develop a bit. A year with a competent coach and the team playing like they care should improve results. Even if they aren't a playoff team next year, everyone's stats should improve and thus increase trade value.

 

[NextYear67]

Would love Montour but it'll come at quite the cost. Right shot dman to boot.

Why the obsession with handedness. Pens just won the cup with only 1

 

[MattySnipes]

Why the obsession with handedness. Pens just won the cup with only 1

Today's game has an added emphasis on speed and making quick plays, and with good coaching and scouting, the opposing team can close space quickly. Being on your strongside is a huge benefit because you don't have to be positioned differently when receiving and making the next play to either break out or stretch it.

Some dmen like their offside more in the offensive zone but in the d-zone it helps a lot to have them on their strongside. With all the little details in Babcock's system and it's many moving parts, having defensemen playing their strongside can make for more effective passes (direct/indirect), complete quick set-plays faster and will help ease the amount of time they spend in the d-zone.

 

[Seanaconda]

Which teams outside those I mentioned have Two (2) NHL All-Star caliber (meaning have participated in an All-Star Game) Top 6 Centers? Also which of those teams you listed would trade a Top 4D for Johnsson?

All star game centers ? The ducks have kesler and getzlaf. Could probably name like fifteen teams if I felt like looking up all star game rosters

 

[StephenPeat]

All star game centers ? The ducks have kesler and getzlaf. Could probably name like fifteen teams if I felt like looking up all star game rosters

Are the Ducks going to trade Montour to themselves? Does anyone think at this stage of their respective career's Getzlaf and Kesler are comparable to Matthews and Tavares?

 

[Seanaconda]

Are the Ducks going to trade Montour to themselves? Does anyone think at this stage of their respective career's Getzlaf and Kesler are comparable to Matthews and Tavares?

Are the Ducks going to trade Montour to themselves? Does anyone think at this stage of their respective career's Getzlaf and Kesler are comparable to Matthews and Tavares?

you just said two centers that got invited to all star games . Which imo is a terrible peramiter . Also assumed you were talking about johnson ? Who I also doubt gets a top four but it’s probably not that rare to have two centers that went to all star games is all I’m saying

 

[StephenPeat]

you just said two centers that got invited to all star games . Which imo is a terrible peramiter . Also assumed you were talking about johnson ? Who I also doubt gets a top four but it’s probably not that rare to have two centers that went to all star games is all I’m saying

It's a lot more rare than you likely realize, particularly in the Salary Cap era. Here is a simple illustration of the point you're missing if you do wish; would you expect Johnsson to put up Point Totals similar to those he puts up with Matthews and Tavares were he playing with Getzlaf and Kesler? I'm not really sure why this question needs to be asked and based on the current direction of those two teams respectively, it certainly doesn't need to be answered and is, in fact, a major reason the Ducks would be beyond stupid to entertain a trade centered around Johnsson+ for Montour. I can certainly understand what the Leafs get out of that swap and why they would make it, what and why do the Ducks?

 

[Seanaconda]

It's a lot more rare than you likely realize, particularly in the Salary Cap era. Here is a simple illustration of the point you're missing if you do wish; would you expect Johnsson to put up Point Totals similar to those he puts up with Matthews and Tavares were he playing with Getzlaf and Kesler? I'm not really sure why this question needs to be asked and based on the current direction of those two teams respectively, it certainly doesn't need to be answered and is, in fact, a major reason the Ducks would be beyond stupid to entertain a trade centered around Johnsson+ for Montour. I can certainly understand what the Leafs get out of that swap and why they would make it, what and why do the Ducks?

Nah I agree that the leafs centers are better. I just don’t think being invited to an all star game is a great gauge on how good your team is. Every team sends someone every year and most team so best players tend to be centers is all I’m saying

Anyways so far uh kings ducks pens caps Dallas sharks Tampa oilers leafs St. Louis qualify from scrolling through the names. I’d like to assume koivu might have been invited but I missed him and that would bring the wild in , idk

 

[Liferleafer]

Here's the thing. He's not pacing for ~50PTs playing with 3rd line players, he's doing so with significant time with obviously Top Line players unless I'm not familiar with Tavares, Marner, and Matthews. I doubt any acquiring team is hoping to put Johnsson with similar players and I doubt they value him as a 60PT player because of it.

Here's the thing, Montour isn't going to play the same paired with Gardiner as he does with Lindholm....so teams won't value him as a top pair D.

This is fun.

 

[4thline]

Here's the thing. He's not pacing for ~50PTs playing with 3rd line players, he's doing so with significant time with obviously Top Line players unless I'm not familiar with Tavares, Marner, and Matthews. I doubt any acquiring team is hoping to put Johnsson with similar players and I doubt they value him as a 60PT player because of it.

No, here's the thing. Since moving up the lineup he's pacing ~64 points while averaging like 13 minutes a game. Should he be valued as a 60 point player? No. Because yes, playing with players as talented as the Leafs big guns does boost things. But it's this ridiculous binary situation you're trying to portray, where it's 60 points with the all-stars, 20 with out them, and nothing in between.Even if it's not with the same level of talent, expecting ~40 point production out of normal 2nd line time and linemates isn't unreasonable given what he's shown.

Defend the bolded. If he's capable of 60+ points playing with top line talent, why in the f*** would you not play him there? If he can get ~40 points on the 2nd line, why would they not play him there?

 

[StephenPeat]

No, here's the thing. Since moving up the lineup he's pacing ~64 points while averaging like 13 minutes a game. Should he be valued as a 60 point player? No. Because yes, playing with players as talented as the Leafs big guns does boost things. But it's this ridiculous binary situation you're trying to portray, where it's 60 points with the all-stars, 20 with out them, and nothing in between.Even if it's not with the same level of talent, expecting ~40 point production out of normal 2nd line time and linemates isn't unreasonable given what he's shown.

Defend the bolded. If he's capable of 60+ points playing with top line talent, why in the **** would you not play him there? If he can get ~40 points on the 2nd line, why would they not play him there?

There's not much here for me to argue with and I agree with most of it but the reality is closer to the bolded than you and most Leaf fans in this thread would like to admit. Not every (in fact, not many) team has a Matthews or Tavares they can just put Johnsson with and expect him to produce 60PTs and if you put Johnsson with a non-Elite Center he's not producing in the 60PT tier. Even on those occasions when Johnsson isn't playing with the big guns he's often playing with Kadri, who's clearly better than your average 3C. It's pretty clear when Johnsson is scoring in that 60PT tier, he's not driving the play and is instead an effective complementary player and most teams have those players in spades. Patrick Maroon was once a mid-40PT player and near-30G scorer, I wonder if it had something to do with who his Center was at that time?

The #s suggest Johnsson is riding unsustainable PDO and a 40PT winger, which I think is closer to Johnsson's realistic tier, simply isn't that valuable. 40PT pace places Johnsson clearly in the 2/3RD line tweener category which is exactly what I said and exactly where I think most acquiring teams would slot him. Comparing that value to a young offensive 2nd Pairing RHD (I believe this is Montour's realistic tier) is not sensible and just a cursory look beyond the #s suggests this is exactly what the situation is.

 

[StephenPeat]

Here's the thing, Montour isn't going to play the same paired with Gardiner as he does with Lindholm....so teams won't value him as a top pair D.

This is fun.

Even a 2nd Pairing Top 4 RHD (which Montour clearly is) is more valuable than a 2nd/3rd line tweener (which Johnsson most likely is).

 

[Incetardis]

Unfortunately Zaitsev has to go the other way so I can't see this having legs

 

[Incetardis]

Zaits + Johnsson + Liljgren?

I honestly can't see a trade that makes sense since ducks will want to be shedding salary to get some roster flexibility and trading a young capable RHD doesn't seem like the place to start

 

[DoobieDubas]

I really disagree, well see what the team looks like with a new coach... leaf fans are well aware of the anchor RC is. Are biggest issue is center if we can get a high draft pick this year that can basically solve the issues. I do agree our stars are a bit older, but we have a lot of young talent... the problem to me lies in the fact that we cant get rid of that old talent so we are wasting a lot of money on players that arnt going to produce/provide much for us.... If we had that cap space from perry/kesler/eaves we could be contenders for a player like Panarin/Stone/Duechene but right now I think we just find a new coach, and move forward with what weve drafted/will draft and start fresh next year... I think itll be a trial year... lot of young players getting a shot... new coach/system … and team learning it.... but at least we should be more exciting to watch. I also agree, we prob do have to move 1 of the top 4 dmen, if nothing else for a bit of a shake up/change of character. I feel like fowler is the guy that needs to be moved... we have mahura/Larsson on left side... hes much easier to lose than a manson/Montour. Still cant believe we gave up Theodore essentially to protect bieska -.-

27 and younger:
Centers: Shore, Steel, Lundestrum, Kossila (morand but idk that hes an nhl player)
Right wingers: Kase, Sprong, Terry, Sheerwood
Left wingers: Rakell, Comtois, Ritchie, Jones
Defense: Lindholm, Fowler, Montour, Manson, Larsson, Mahura(hunter drew looks like hes got a pretty decent upside for where he was picked)
Goalies: Gibson, Dostal, Erickson-ek, Durney and Boyle

We look like we should have a top 5 pick this year, so you figure were going to get a boost in 1 of those forward spots. And I imagine we will add a 1st round pick via fowler/Henrique trade now or at the draft.

Respectfully disagree as well.

 

[Martin Skoula]

There's not much here for me to argue with and I agree with most of it but the reality is closer to the bolded than you and most Leaf fans in this thread would like to admit. Not every (in fact, not many) team has a Matthews or Tavares they can just put Johnsson with and expect him to produce 60PTs and if you put Johnsson with a non-Elite Center he's not producing in the 60PT tier. Even on those occasions when Johnsson isn't playing with the big guns he's often playing with Kadri, who's clearly better than your average 3C. It's pretty clear when Johnsson is scoring in that 60PT tier, he's not driving the play and is instead an effective complementary player and most teams have those players in spades. Patrick Maroon was once a mid-40PT player and near-30G scorer, I wonder if it had something to do with who his Center was at that time?

The #s suggest Johnsson is riding unsustainable PDO and a 40PT winger, which I think is closer to Johnsson's realistic tier, simply isn't that valuable. 40PT pace places Johnsson clearly in the 2/3RD line tweener category which is exactly what I said and exactly where I think most acquiring teams would slot him. Comparing that value to a young offensive 2nd Pairing RHD (I believe this is Montour's realistic tier) is not sensible and just a cursory look beyond the #s suggests this is exactly what the situation is.

Maroon scored 3 more points with McDavid than he was on pace for in 2015 in Anaheim..

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Johnsson is better than montour.

Montour is a dman that can't defend and isn't very good offensively either.

I’d give Bracco + for Montour

Perhaps Pittsburgh will give up a 3/4D for Johnsson? I doubt he'll lose a step. On the other hand I wonder how many teams will trade a Top 4D for Jake Guentzel on the belief he will maintain his production on their team?

I am not sure why anybody is wasting time arguing about Johnsson If ignorant fans of other teams don't see the value in him

I agree with the sentiments here. Montour for future considerations. All of our NHL forwards are too good to trade for a top 4 defender. Same with our prospects - they're studs - gold!

 

[AppsSyl]

Zaits + Johnsson + Liljgren?

I honestly can't see a trade that makes sense since ducks will want to be shedding salary to get some roster flexibility and trading a young capable RHD doesn't seem like the place to start

For Montour??? Lol!!!

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Can we just ban ducks and leaf threads.... they always go badly.

We get it everyone on leafs is untouchable... and everyone on anaheim would be lucky to get generational 4th liner brown for them

Agreed. Our forwards are too good. Montour for future considerations.

 

[sxvnert]

Rather wait until the summer to fix the RHD need.