An Anti-Attendance Thread: Info on Gate Receipts

[mucker*]

So, what do you think the solution is?

Move them and other teams from the sun belt/bad markets that can't intellegently and legitimately support the integrity of the NHL, even if that means conceding failure.

I can see why the NHL felt the need to expand but it backfired, we got a watered down and stars like AO in markets where he never will get what he deserves.

Try and relocate those franchises to true hockey areas, if any are leftover, contract.

I for one am sick of seeing towns which don't appreciate or preserve the spirit of the NHL getting cups, star players, or making excuses.

Do you know how annoying it is to hear all two Caps fans complain about club seats being sold, the team not winning, Boston not drawing, or not being in the Patrick divison.

If they were in the Patrick division their attendance would improve, as would most clubs, only due to them having a ton of road fans.

Examine a town like Denver or Minnesota, it's like 10 hours to their closest division rival, that doesn't stop them from drawing.
Seriously, enough of them and their mockery.

 

[Hawker14]

helluva thread here....

just wanted to drop by to say that I oppose book burnings....
I think people should actually spend more time with a good book under a shady tree. The world would be a better place.

Yes, couldn't agree more.

I also oppose a minority (less than one percent here) of people that think just because they may have a right to say something don't realize that right doesn't make it right to do so.

I definitely agree. There is no excuse for posts supporting discrimination against race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, disability or conviction for an offence for which a pardon has been granted.

Banning discussion about poor attendance and ratings of NHL markets seems a little overboard in this context though. However, as this board is a commercial site, I certainly understand and respect the management's right to ban and censor the facts, figures, and opinions they don't agree with or don't want to be distributed.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Move them and other teams from the sun belt/bad markets that can't intellegently and legitimately support the integrity of the NHL, even if that means conceding failure.

I'd ask for what the standard of "intelligently support" is going to be, but I won't.

I can see why the NHL felt the need to expand but it backfired, we got a watered down and stars like AO in markets where he never will get what he deserves.

I'd ask what Ovechkin "deserves", but I won't.

Try and relocate those franchises to true hockey areas, if any are leftover, contract.

Contraction isn't happening - we've had that discussion, and we've also had the discussion of viability of other potential locations.

I for one am sick of seeing towns which don't appreciate or preserve the spirit of the NHL getting cups, star players, or making excuses.

Tough - this isn't a market-bashing forum.

Do you know how annoying it is to hear all two Caps fans complain about club seats being sold, the team not winning, Boston not drawing, or not being in the Patrick divison.

If they were in the Patrick division their attendance would improve, as would most clubs, only due to them having a ton of road fans.

When you have a point to make that doesn't rip on "all two Caps fans", let me know.

 

[Foy]

The Caps don't, and never did draw.
When they had decent teams, even then they did not draw, the times when it wasn't downright bad, there were tons of empty seats, or non fans, and fans of other teams.

I am so tired of hearing the club seat excuse, those club seats sales actually help the Caps because they make it appear on paper they have more people there than really are.

DC is not by itself without Baltimore a big enough market that the NHL badly needs it too suceed.
The area is more of a transplant region with business people, which is why whenever the Caps do have ok attendance, it's road fans and business non fans.

If the Caps and DC actually were a good hockey and sports town they wouldn't have this problem, but as it is really I find it annoying to have Cap fans use the same club seat excuse when in actuality those sold seats inflate the team's attendance of which otherwise would be unsold.

Face it, the Caps are a bad hockey town, they invented the blocking road playoff teams from buying tickets because they would get embarassed at home, then when they couldn't sell out playoff games, after their owner insulted real hockey fans he cried.

The Caps fans, the few exist are novice with their knowledge and generally immature and childish, they do not root for their team or hockey, instead they try and act tough but it comes off as really being a poser, witness not enough annoucing Jagr's 1,500 point.
Classy.

Are you talking about the road fans that start fights, the road fans that spit on kids, or the road fans that throw things at the ice? Because I want to know which of those fans I'm supposed to be polite to.

The Caps have bad attendance because we are losing, yet if you look at the league standings, there's three teams ahead of us in attendance. If you look at two of the top teams in the league in terms of attendance, they are teams that were behind us in the last two seasons in Buffalo and Pittsburgh. It's about winning. That's all it is.

You harp on the Caps for having promotions, yet it is something that every team in the league does. You harp on the Caps for having less than knowledgable fans, and the only people who are at the games are road fans, but it's my experience that the road fans are the least knowledgable people in the stadium, whether it's a Penguins fan that didn't know who Jagr was, a Sabres fan that had to have spearing explained to them, or Senators fan who didn't know why they were playing the Star Spangled banner (not making any of these up).'

You talk about tradition, and how in thirty years we should have been able to build the fan base better, but if you look at the three teams below us in the standings two have been in the league longer and the other is a team in the playoffs with one of the best winning traditions in modern times.

You claim the Caps never draw, yet in 01-02 we were 13th in attendance for a non-playoff team. Fans came out to see Jaromir Jagr. Fans were turned off by Jaromir Jagr. If you look at Caps' attendance year by year, you will see two spikes. One when we made the finals, and one when we acquired Jagr. The acquisition of Jagr is followed by a steep downward trend as he turned off more fans to hockey by being lazy than any "ugly incident" ever could.

You claim that DC is not that big of a market without Baltimore. Without Baltimore it is the #6 market in the country. Fairfax county (to the west of the city) is the 2nd richest county in the United States, and Loudon County is the 4th richest county in the country.

You talk about the unfairness of the Caps blocking playoff ticket sales. Did you know that other teams are doing that this year, while the Caps pledged not to do it anymore?

You mentioned the Club seats being the reason the stadium was full. I'm at every game. I can count on one hand the number of games in which there were more than 100 people on the club level combined. That's out of thousands of seats. Name a team in the NHL where the team cannot sell a quarter of the tickets in their own stadium, that's at least 2,000 seats a night that are going unused because the Caps aren't allowed to touch them.

You talk about not getting personal, yet you've made two lengthy posts about how much you hate the Caps' organization with things that are either factually wrong, blissfully ignorant, or just straight made up.

 

[GetPucksDeep]

The NHL counts tickets 'distributed', not 'sales' and not 'attendance' - distributed tickets includes the club seat that is sold but no one shows up for AND the free comp seat that is not sold but which does yield a relatively warm fanny in the seat.

 

[Jasper17]

Move them and other teams from the sun belt/bad markets that can't intellegently and legitimately support the integrity of the NHL, even if that means conceding failure.

I can see why the NHL felt the need to expand but it backfired, we got a watered down and stars like AO in markets where he never will get what he deserves.

Try and relocate those franchises to true hockey areas, if any are leftover, contract.

I for one am sick of seeing towns which don't appreciate or preserve the spirit of the NHL getting cups, star players, or making excuses.

Do you know how annoying it is to hear all two Caps fans complain about club seats being sold, the team not winning, Boston not drawing, or not being in the Patrick divison.

If they were in the Patrick division their attendance would improve, as would most clubs, only due to them having a ton of road fans.

Examine a town like Denver or Minnesota, it's like 10 hours to their closest division rival, that doesn't stop them from drawing.
Seriously, enough of them and their mockery.

So in your optinion the Caps should be moved, do you also think the Devils and Islanders should be moved also?

Just curious because since 89 the Caps have got better average attendance numbers than the Islanders (including these last two years where the Caps were awful) and been just as good as the Devils.

 

[dinoflint]

What epitomizes the problem with the NHL is the Caps.

The NHL never should have expanded to most of the non traditional markets.
Not only do these teams not draw, have no ratings, but the times when fans do show up it's usually as non paying for other reasons.

Take Cap games, when they drew this season it was due to unlimited college tickets, 21 dollars for a ticket and a full, not slice, pizza.
Two for one seats and 50 dollar lower level seats AND golf lessons from a pro.

They either have no fans or people coming for pizza, beer, and golf.
What makes Washington bad though is unlike other towns, not only do they not support a winner, but you wouldn't want to root for their owner of the team.
Those few people they as fans are some of the most immature, self denying out there.

They lack dignity and have a far flong inferior complex.
Example, I go to Boston to root for the Rangers, no problems.
In Washington after 30 years they do not know hockey, all they know how to do is make gritty faces at you if you wear another jersey, that;s all they have is immaturity.

To me they should move, because if they ever become a good team the fans and town do not deserve it.
If they at least had class and didn't act like babies, they go to games either to root for the road team or root against the road team and get pizza, not to watch hockey, never have.

I won't forget their owner complaining when played the Pens in the playoffs about PIT fans showing up, trying to not let them buy tickets, they still got in, and then when he didn't play PIT in the playoffs he didn't sell out, he had 4K empty seats, was crying, and blaming the scheduling on Easter.
After 30 years all they have is excuses, this is what is wrong with the hockey, it being in towns like this.

Sorry for this but I am fed up with these illegite towns.

Thanks for beating us while we're down Oh, I apologize for all of us when I say that, sorry, we're not steeped in tradition like other US cities like Boston, New York, Chicago, and Detroit. (This is not Canada-bashing!)
Eh, don't take hockey problems and attribute it to a non-original 6 US city - hockey will always be behind the NFL, NBA, and MLB in those towns. Like it or not - it's the way it is...hockey ain't a US sport, it just makes more money here than in Canada...
Do remember that throughout the 80s and 90s we were co-owned with the Bullets/Wizards, who promoted visiting teams more than our own. Perhaps that makes sense as we are one of the most transient cities in the world. As a hockey owner, it's not about attendance and whow shows up, but all about the dollar, eh?

As far as attendance:
2006-2007: 27th
2005-2006: 28th
2003-2004: 25th
2002-2003: 18th
2001-2002: 13th
2000-2001: 18th

 

[dinoflint]

No, it's not personel.
I have gone to many games there and other rinks, DC hockey games have the most novice, immature fans.
I can go to many other places were the game is known, or at the very least I don't have a 25 year old acting like a jealous 12 year old because I am rooting for the road team.
Unlike other cities which take it in stride, Cap fans, the few they have, are quite immature and make it a point and act very babish to road fans, they aren't tough like PHI because PHI is a real sports town, they are flatout immature posers who really make the game unenjoyable.

Chalk it to 16 years living in the area.

Not personal - who just insulted an entire city...? Glad you left. You must have lived in a cave - Caps fans are the most intense fans you'll see in DC, next to the United.

What makes a true sports town, anyway? Next time I go to a game, I'll chuck a battery at the ref, but, hey, only if it will that make you think more highly of us. I'll also boo Santa. I'll also make sure to include Carlin's list of dirty words and yell them at my son for wearing his AO jersey. When I'm done, I throw a beer on him. I'll also ask the local media to hound him and report on what AO wears when he goes out. If I'm lucky, maybe I'll pick a fight with a Rangers fan in a bar.

Come to think of it, I'll just go to a game when Leonsis and McPhee gets us a centerman and a puck moving dman and puts a team worthy of cheering for on the ice. I have to drive in 2 hours of traffic to get to the game. The rest of the time, I'll watch the games on HDTV in the comfort of my own home and chuck sippie cups at the wall when they lose, cause me and my boy - we're fans. Oh, wait, not tough enough...I'll start him on protein shakes.

If having the Caps in DC is causing you this much time and effort, and this much pain, my only advice is to get a life...it's not what is wrong with hockey.

Bringing it back on topic...

If you want to solve hockey's problems, I'd suggest looking at the amount of time the average fan has at their disposal for going to games. With as much entertainment as there is available in DC and other big cities, I'm surprised anyone goes to a hockey or basketball game. Football, easy - only 8 games to go to, they're on Sundays and it's an all-day affair. MLB, what's better than taking in a summer game and spending 3 hours just kicking back in the outdoors? NBA, same problems as hockey - I have to go all the way there, I have 41 choices, it's cold outside and tickets cost as much as a football game. Hockey was perfect in the mid 90s, not expensive and a great game to watch live. Now it's expensive and still a great game to watch live...so I have to pick and choose instead of deciding the night of...

 

[WashCapsfan4life8]

What epitomizes the problem with the NHL is the Caps.

The NHL never should have expanded to most of the non traditional markets.
Not only do these teams not draw, have no ratings, but the times when fans do show up it's usually as non paying for other reasons.

Take Cap games, when they drew this season it was due to unlimited college tickets, 21 dollars for a ticket and a full, not slice, pizza.
Two for one seats and 50 dollar lower level seats AND golf lessons from a pro.

They either have no fans or people coming for pizza, beer, and golf.
What makes Washington bad though is unlike other towns, not only do they not support a winner, but you wouldn't want to root for their owner of the team.
Those few people they as fans are some of the most immature, self denying out there.

They lack dignity and have a far flong inferior complex.
Example, I go to Boston to root for the Rangers, no problems.
In Washington after 30 years they do not know hockey, all they know how to do is make gritty faces at you if you wear another jersey, that;s all they have is immaturity.

To me they should move, because if they ever become a good team the fans and town do not deserve it.
If they at least had class and didn't act like babies, they go to games either to root for the road team or root against the road team and get pizza, not to watch hockey, never have.

I won't forget their owner complaining when played the Pens in the playoffs about PIT fans showing up, trying to not let them buy tickets, they still got in, and then when he didn't play PIT in the playoffs he didn't sell out, he had 4K empty seats, was crying, and blaming the scheduling on Easter.
After 30 years all they have is excuses, this is what is wrong with the hockey, it being in towns like this.

Sorry for this but I am fed up with these illegite towns.

Just Get Out

 

[Jasper17]

Not personal - who just insulted an entire city...? Glad you left. You must have lived in a cave - Caps fans are the most intense fans you'll see in DC, next to the United.

thats not true, the Redskins will always be #1 in this town.

 

[Foy]

thats not true, the Redskins will always be #1 in this town.

In terms of numbers yes, in terms of intensity, not really. Go to a 'Skins/Cowboys game, and a quarter of the fans gave their tickets away to friends of the other team.

 

[Jasper17]

In terms of numbers yes, in terms of intensity, not really. Go to a 'Skins/Cowboys game, and a quarter of the fans gave their tickets away to friends of the other team.

what? listen I don't want to get into an arguement with another Caps fan as I think we should be sticking together here. But you can't be serious.

I am not trying to say there are never opposing teams fans in the stands, as that happens with every team in any sport when you are not winning. But nothing gets this city going like the Redskins when they are winning.

How anyone who knows anything about this city could argue that is kinda crazy. I mean I understand the point of this is to talk up the Caps org, but the Caps fans don't come close to Redskins fans. And I am not just talking about #'s, which obviously isn't even close.

that said, this thread has gotten way off topic. I guess that guy finally gave up.

 

[mucker*]

I'm following the moderator's request and out of respect for that only will I not get anymore drawn into this, because it's obvious some people can't be drawn to logic or bear to face the reality.

I've been in this area almost two decades, I know what I'm talking about and what I'm dealing with here.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I'm following the moderator's request and out of respect for that only will I not get anymore drawn into this,

But you'll gleefully and publicly drag the moderator through the mud here?

Nobody likes a tattletale.

 

[mucker*]

But you'll gleefully and publicly drag the moderator through the mud here?

Nobody likes a tattletale.

I didn't say which moderator, simply not going to have people saying I cowered off.
Hey, I didn't say anything critical about Colorado or Washington State, calm down lol.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Sadly what these Canadian fans dont understand is no matter how poor and ignorant towards hockey a southern market is, the team will still make more money in that market (ie carolina, phoenix) so I guess that settles that right there.

But in all honesty I think the NHL needs to look at northern US cities to grow the game in. I dont think small canadian scities are the answers. Try Seattle, Milwuakee, Portland etc.

Milwaukee will NEVER have an NHL team. Wirtz basically killed that dream in the 70s since there is allegedly some type of by-law where Wirtz is able to set a price the team would have to pay in order to be admitted to the league. That is why Milwaukee went with an IHL team, that was owned by former Hawks Broadcaster, Mr. Pettit. He married much money.

Secondly, everyone in this entire thread is talking revenues. Revenues from ALL sources, while very important, are not the end all concering a team's profitability. One of the reaasons the Canadian teams have money woes (see Senators) is that they pay much higher taxes and other expenses (insurance, etc.) than teams in the US.

Canadian teams pay more in items such as payroll related taxes, income taxes, etc. I know because I paid more in my taxes when I worked in Canada than what I paid when I worked in the US. There are also travel expenses, both for the team and for call ups and send downs, admisitrative expenses, etc. Do you really think that the Dallas Stars and Atlanta Thrashers are paying their administrative assistants, ticket sales people, etc., the same that the NY Rangers have to pay? Cost of living is not cheap in Toronto either nor is it cheap in Edmonton or Calagary where the infrstructure is can't keep up with growth, housing has shot through the roof, etc.

Why do you think the Blackhawks, who sometimes did not even outdraw the Wolves and are lucky to have 5,000 people actually at the arena, actually make money? They own the arena, all the concessions, and have minimal expenses.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I didn't say which moderator, simply not going to have people saying I cowered off.
Hey, I didn't say anything critical about Colorado or Washington State, calm down lol.

If you want to point out problems in a market, fine. Have at it. However, some people have seized on this as a chance to relentlessly bash certain markets at any (every) chance, and that is what will stop. There's no problem with pointing out that Phoenix is losing $35 million a year (assuming you have the valid links - see HF rules on using blogs as a source) ... but there is a problem when that's translated into "Phoenix doesn't deserve a team", "Phoenix fans will never show up", "Phoenix should be contracted", "Phoenix should be moved back to Winnipeg where the team will get real support", "Maybe if Phoenix had more than 7 fans, ..." and so on.

 

[mucker*]

I understand, frankly I know the Caps fans I'm dealing with it and perhaps it's best to let lying dogs lie but I just don't want to hear excuses of a bad team, club seats being sold to the Wizards, the Pens lucking out with Crosby, not being the Patrick division, or any of that nature to exonerate their situation.

I have lived in the area almost two decades attended countless games, I don't have archive of counted empty seats nor quantatative data that can measure the intellegence of those who go to their games, all I have is multiple first hand accounts.

As you know this is not pure black and white and I think my point has been made and is equally valid.

 

[Jasper17]

This is what I don't get with you, how can you ignore the fact that before the Caps were an awful team the attendance was around league average if not better? How can you make a case that the Washington DC area is not a huge market and that the NHL would be better off to ignore it and move the team?

We are not just making up excuses, we are giving you actual facts that you are choosing to ignore.

No one has ever claimed that this is a great hockey market. And no one has ever claimed that the Caps are the main team in this market. But how anyone can make a case that not having a team in Washington would be the best thing for the NHL in a business of hockey thread is comical to me. Because saying that actually ignores most business aspects of the NHL.

And it’s when you deny the fact that the Washington market is huge, when you deny the fact that the surrounding counties are some of the wealthiest in the world, and when you deny the fact that the team has sold about league average amount of tickets over the past 10 years that you lose all creditability.

But lets just leave it alone, as you never posted this to have a conversation anyway. It was basically just a pointless rant that was meant to insult rather than inform. No matter how much you try to deny that now.

 

[Sotnos]

Not to bring up an actual business topic or anything, but some of you might find this interesting, though it's not really interesting enough to make a thread about:

Lightning May Score Tax Rebate The Bolts may get $32 million from the state for building improvements and the like.

 

[Fugu]

Not to bring up an actual business topic or anything, but some of you might find this interesting, though it's not really interesting enough to make a thread about:

Lightning May Score Tax Rebate The Bolts may get $32 million from the state for building improvements and the like.

This is worthy of its own thread. Why not write one up and remind us of the operational issues facing Tampa. There were all those rumors earlier too about the owner selling the team, but in reality having the bankers go over the operations. It's much more a legitimate business thread topic than our usual fare recently!

 

[Sotnos]

This is worthy of its own thread. Why not write one up and remind us of the operational issues facing Tampa. There were all those rumors earlier too about the owner selling the team, but in reality having the bankers go over the operations. It's much more a legitimate business thread topic than our usual fare recently!

OK, maybe I will if I get a chance. I've wanted to pull up a more complete record of the franchise's complaining in the media about their money woes for a while now, mostly because I wonder if anyone else has to put up with reading stuff like that when their building is full.

It's the "legit" topics like this that get completely ignored around here though.

 

[byebyebettman]

In a sense, I can sorta see where MrBlueandWhite is coming from, though I think hoping franchises fail is a little extreme and harsh. He's not concerned with how much money the NHL owners make, he's concerned about hockey culture in Canada. Just like I'm sure most Americans here are concerned with the health and popularity of the game in the US. It's a shame they have to be somewhat mutually exclusive, but with the population and wealth advantage that US cities have over Canadian cities, it does exist. If the game gets as popular in the US as say, the NFL, we're not gonna see teams in Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa eventually. If the game fails in the US and remains popular in canada, teams in Winnipeg and Quebec (or hamilton, or wherever) might be more viable.

If the growth of the league means that my Oilers are more in danger of moving, why should I be hoping for that? If a downturn for the league makes it more likely that teams could survive in Winnipeg and Quebec, be it by expansion or relocation (from wherever, Boston, Phoenix, Chicago, etc) then why would that be a bad thing for me, the Canadian hockey fan who doesn't give a **** how much money the owners make?

I agree with this. I feel similar.

 

[Doc Scurlock]

I agree with this. I feel similar.

Yeah, I feel that way as well. For example, I don't care if the NHL ever gets a sweet national TV deal in the US, hell I hope it never happens simply because it'll put more power in the US teams' hands. As a long time Edmonton Oilers fan this does not sound like a good deal to me.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Just Get Out

Support your team then. That goes for all four major sports, not just the NHL.