Player Discussion Alzner

[G0bias]

LOL

Jacques Martin???? Former Habs coach under Gauthier?

217, 216, 212. That's the goals scored with Martin as coach. Hell, even the Therrien team that failed to make the playoffs score 221 goals.

Martin was the true dunce coach for the Habs. No offense. No creativity. He did have the perfect scowl though.

Strange to see the love for Martin.

None of this is relevant to my post nor the discussion Sorinth and I were having.

If you don't want to follow the conversation, why bother?

 

[Scriptor]

There's a whole bunch of badly proven points that become assumptions on this forum the second they've become legible on the board. And then, pure hypotheses made from these become tantamount to the organization's stance and it is immediately shot down as proof of management's incompetence.

I've rarely seen so much bad logic and unsubstantiated bias thrown around as fact.

Absolutely mind-numbing at times.

The Habs D is definitely not a "skate the puck up the ice from the back of your net" type of D, the only type of D that seems to be considered a PMD around these parts. No, there aren't 6 Subbans on our backend.

This doesn't mean that the D is completely immobile, can't spot a free forward or make a decent first pass to one of them while they are gaining speed on the fly. The professional scouting reports on most of our Ds say just that (scouting reports, not opinions thrown around): Mobile Ds, good first pass, etc.

The puck moves faster across the ice than on the end of a player's stick and opposing players can more easily be caught out of position that way than when they wait for a player skating towards them. This is also a way to be a PMD.

Too much of one thing, however, is always bad as opposing Ds predict what is about to happen and adjust for it. I agree that a Victor Mete type of D -- if and when ready for the NHL -- would surely help mix things up from the backend.

I'm not 100% sure that the Habs D will be a strong transition D, but I am certain that they won't be nearly as bad as some are making them out to be.

Let's wait to see what they've got, please, before nailing their coffin shut with biased affirmations passed off as irrefutable truisms.

I don't believe that Bergevin has the assets to land a genuine, proven #2D that is the young side of 27. I also don't think that he should trade a Pacioretty or a Galchenyuk for such a D. We are just not deep enough on Offense for that.

A solution must be found from within, period. Re-signing Markov is only a bandaid, IMO, because he won't be able to play the required minutes alongside Weber for the entire season and be fresh for a long playoff push, if it ever came to that (although hoards of posters will undoubtedly assure me this will never happen to begin with).

When Alzner was asked how he would be used and who he would be pairing with, he said that management had told him with Weber AND Petry.

Ideally, he would be Petry's pairing partner and, depending on the score and game situation, pair up as a shutdown D alongside Weber. If Markov somehow returns to the lineup, this could be a good way to dose the veteran D's ice time as well.

I don't think that Julien is stupid enough to think that a Weber-Alzner pairing will be meant to generate Offense at even strength. I can see him use that pairing, however, to protect a lead late in a period or late in the game, to handle a D-zone F/O against the other team's best offensive line or as a PK pairing.

The coach is allowed to match against opposing lines/formations with different players at different times throughout the game. In fact, it would be wise for the coach to do this if the situation calls for it.

Enjoy the upcoming season everyone. If the results for the team prove to be bad, you'll get plenty of chances to enjoy your usual end of days complaining.

 

[Hoople]

None of this is relevant to my post nor the discussion Sorinth and I were having.

If you don't want to follow the conversation, why bother?

You were holding up Martin has a great coach with regard to transition. And your complaint appears to be that the Habs won't be able to transition well with Alzner and thus have problems with goal scoring.

I just added a reality check for you.

 

[Hoople]

All players will dump and chase. That's life of hockey in an era where the trap still exists.

I don't understand your comment. Are you happy with the D the Habs have put together today? The Habs currently don't have a #2 D and it is unclear how this is not more of a problem for some Habs fans as it is for me. I do not want Weber to be tied down by an inferior partner, so that by the end of the season he is out of gas.

I don't know how our D will be slotted. And I'm not sure if Bergevin makes any changes to our D corps. I will have to wait to see how the team plays with the new additions and with a full season of Julien. If it becomes a disaster, I will be among those calling it a disaster.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Let's wait to see what they've got, please, before nailing their coffin shut with biased affirmations passed off as irrefutable truisms.

Long post so I'll just cut to the chase on this.

I don't know if our transition will be a disaster. CJ has been known to have good systems and that will help. So maybe it will be okay.

But "not a disaster" is a low bar to set.

 

[Wats]

Nicely said. 10/10 for writing style, but unfortunately 0/10 for truth. Why do you have to exaggerate his weaknesses? Come on now. Here's Weber burning the fastest skater on Montreal:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThirdInsignificantGorilla-mobile.mp4

Emelin's lack of offensive ability exaggerated too. Here's him doing a Subbidoo spin better than Subban.

 

[Runner77]

Enjoy the upcoming season everyone. If the results for the team prove to be bad, you'll get plenty of chances to enjoy your usual end of days complaining.

Punting the ball forward another season, I see.

An annual summer ritual.

 

[G0bias]

You were holding up Martin has a great coach with regard to transition. And your complaint appears to be that the Habs won't be able to transition well with Alzner and thus have problems with goal scoring.

I just added a reality check for you.

He was a good transition coach. About one of his only strengths.

And none of what you wrote points to the contrary. Pointing to his goal totals as a means to evaluate transition of all things, when there's so many elements that factor in that total, is just clueless.

Go to bed now.

 

[Bieber fever]

The difference between MT and CJ is MT wants his players to exit the zone as fast as they can while CJ wants the players to exit the zone as safe as they can

 

[Hoople]

He was a good transition coach. About one of his only strengths.

And none of what you wrote points to the contrary. Pointing to his goal totals as a means to evaluate transition of all things, when there's so many elements that factor in that total, is just clueless.

Go to bed now.

The point of transition is to get out, set up and score a goal.

So if the Martin Habs were masters of transition but could not score goals, then are you overrating transition?

Good night.

 

[uiCk]

Punting the ball forward another season, I see.

An annual summer ritual.

Almost as good as the "last season is in the past now, let's look forward to the next season"

 

[montreal]

Emelin's lack of offensive ability exaggerated too.

He scored 8 goals in the last 4 seasons, his production went down every year after the lockout while his games played went up each year.

'13-'14 - 59 games 17 pts
'14-'15 - 68 g 14 pts
'15-'16 - 72 g 12 pts
'16-'17 - 76 g 10 pts

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

This is demonstrably not true. Weber's whole appeal was the simplicity of his game and that he doesn't deviate much off of it. Its why Nashville always stuck him with a PMD.

Actually, it's demonstrably true. For starters, you can't be a 25+ minute defenseman without playing with multiple partners every night - especially when considering special teams combos. Weber has been an elite defenseman for years upon years as a big minute defenseman who has, by very basic logic, carried lesser players on a regular/nightly/routine basis while absorbing minutes that would have gone to a 3rd pairing guy instead. The job he did carrying Emelin above his head for half of last year was outstanding, too.

People use this "simple game" label as some way to insinuate that Weber's game is in some/many ways limited, when the real fact of the matter is that it takes tremendous skill/hockey IQ to so consistently make all those "easy" plays actually look that easy. If he was actually at some skill or mobility disadvantage relative to the pack, it should be quite amazing to everyone just how easy he makes it look and just how effective he continues to be - even skating semi-regular shifts with bottom pairing guys for partners, often with a man disadvantage, too.

There's really no reason an Alzner-Weber pairing couldn't work. Like I've said before, it's hard to imagine which guy on the left side is going to actually EARN more minutes/role. Whether he'd ideally fit better with Petry is moot if Alzner is the most reliable guy for the job over the course of the year. If you were to bet avatars that Jerabek, Schlemko, Davidson, or even Benn slide in there instead, I think you'd get takers.

 

[ottawa]

Likely Alzner, but I could see them going with Schlemko. Sharks fans were positive about him, could see Julien trying him with increased minutes.

Isn't he a really good 3rd pairing defenseman?

 

[NotProkofievian]

Actually, it's demonstrably true. For starters, you can't be a 25+ minute defenseman without playing with multiple partners every night - especially when considering special teams combos. Weber has been an elite defenseman for years upon years as a big minute defenseman who has, by very basic logic, carried lesser players on a regular/nightly/routine basis while absorbing minutes that would have gone to a 3rd pairing guy instead. The job he did carrying Emelin above his head for half of last year was outstanding, too.

Shea Weber didn't really have ''multiple partners every night,'' though, and to demonstrate that, just check his WOWY chart.

In 2015-16, Weber played 1418 minutes. 1319 of those minutes were played with Josi.

In 2014-15, Weber played 1496 minutes, 1386 of those minutes were played with Josi. Seth Jones and Matthias Ekholm accounted for 70 of the missing 110 minutes.

In 2013-14, Weber played 1569 minutes, 1175 of those minutes were played with Josi, Seth Jones and Matthias Ekholm accounted for 320 of the 389 missing minutes.

For the last 3 seasons in Nashville, Roman Josi was stapled to Shea Weber. When he wasn't playing with Josi, he was playing with Ekholm and Jones.

People use this "simple game" label as some way to insinuate that Weber's game is in some/many ways limited, when the real fact of the matter is that it takes tremendous skill/hockey IQ to so consistently make all those "easy" plays actually look that easy. If he was actually at some skill or mobility disadvantage relative to the pack, it should be quite amazing to everyone just how easy he makes it look and just how effective he continues to be - even skating semi-regular shifts with bottom pairing guys for partners, often with a man disadvantage, too.

There's really no reason an Alzner-Weber pairing couldn't work. Like I've said before, it's hard to imagine which guy on the left side is going to actually EARN more minutes/role. Whether he'd ideally fit better with Petry is moot if Alzner is the most reliable guy for the job over the course of the year. If you were to bet avatars that Jerabek, Schlemko, Davidson, or even Benn slide in there instead, I think you'd get takers.

People use the simple game label because that's the game he plays. He's a very good defenceman, and the modality in which he goes about being that is in on the stay at home side of 2-way defenceman. He also happens to have a bomb of a shot on the power play, but he's very offensively limited at 5 on 5.

Maybe Alzner would be the best bet to play with Weber, but that's more an indictment of the options that Bergevin has provided the Montreal Canadiens than an endorsement of Alzner.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Shea Weber didn't really have ''multiple partners every night,'' though, and to demonstrate that, just check his WOWY chart.

In 2015-16, Weber played 1418 minutes. 1319 of those minutes were played with Josi.

In 2014-15, Weber played 1496 minutes, 1386 of those minutes were played with Josi. Seth Jones and Matthias Ekholm accounted for 70 of the missing 110 minutes.

In 2013-14, Weber played 1569 minutes, 1175 of those minutes were played with Josi, Seth Jones and Matthias Ekholm accounted for 320 of the 389 missing minutes.

For the last 3 seasons in Nashville, Roman Josi was stapled to Shea Weber. When he wasn't playing with Josi, he was playing with Ekholm and Jones.

For starters, your numbers are only 5-on-5, unless your version of puckalytics.com works differently from mine. Leaving out special teams ignores a pretty important component of a "typical" 25 minutes of work on any night for a guy like Weber. Furthermore, I don't think exploring just 3 years of an 11 year career makes much of a point. Especially when just a few years earlier he was a 1st team all-star in consecutive seasons "stapled" to a guy like Suter (next most common partner = Bouillon, btw) who is known for defense first and making simple, smart plays to get the puck moving, not entirely unlike Alzner. Suter has never, NEVER, been mistaken for Karlsson/Subban/whoever else does spinaramas.

People use the simple game label because that's the game he plays. He's a very good defenceman, and the modality in which he goes about being that is in on the stay at home side of 2-way defenceman. He also happens to have a bomb of a shot on the power play, but he's very offensively limited at 5 on 5.

Maybe Alzner would be the best bet to play with Weber, but that's more an indictment of the options that Bergevin has provided the Montreal Canadiens than an endorsement of Alzner.

I don't think I've suggested anything to the contrary. I still maintain that he makes things (other than carrying the puck, lol) look easier than they actually are for the average guy, and that the extremely vast majority of defensemen out there couldn't have nearly the on-ice impact of Weber playing a "similarly" simple game. And again, as it sits now, pretty much the only way Alzner doesn't play with him on the top pairing is if Markov returns and we continue to overuse him.

 

[Captain Mountain]

For starters, your numbers are only 5-on-5, unless your version of puckalytics.com works differently from mine. Leaving out special teams ignores a pretty important component of a "typical" 25 minutes of work on any night for a guy like Weber. Furthermore, I don't think exploring just 3 years of an 11 year career makes much of a point. Especially when just a few years earlier he was a 1st team all-star in consecutive seasons "stapled" to a guy like Suter (next most common partner = Bouillon, btw) who is known for defense first and making simple, smart plays to get the puck moving, not entirely unlike Alzner. Suter has never, NEVER, been mistaken for Karlsson/Subban/whoever else does spinaramas.

The fundamental argument against an Alzner-Weber pair is even strength. Pretty much everyone expects them to be the PK1 pair, since there's no icing on the PK and they'd be good defensively together. No one expects them to play together on the PP, since if Alzner needs to play PP minutes, Montreal is screwed. I think your missing the debate. We're discussing Alzner, and why it would be a mistake to partner him with Weber.

As for the 3 years, it is always more prudent to use a 3 year sample, since players change dramatically. Weber isn't as good as he was five years ago, and its pretty ridiculous to expect he will be at his age and with the wear and tear he has on him.

Also, if you think Suter is "defense first and making simple, smart plays to get the puck moving", then you're mistaken. We're talking about a consistently involved D-man that puts up points, regularly carries the puck and stretches the ice with quick, accurate passes. He's basically a Markov with better mobility. Not even remotely comparable to Alzner. I suggest you set up a poll on the main board to see how many people actually agree with Suter =/= PMD and that Suter and Alzner are comparable. And spin-o-ramas are a red herring that aren't a big part of any D-man's repertoire, just highlight reels.

I don't think I've suggested anything to the contrary. I still maintain that he makes things (other than carrying the puck, lol) look easier than they actually are for the average guy, and that the extremely vast majority of defensemen out there couldn't have nearly the on-ice impact of Weber playing a "similarly" simple game. And again, as it sits now, pretty much the only way Alzner doesn't play with him on the top pairing is if Markov returns and we continue to overuse him.

No one is arguing that Weber is bad, but that he's got clearly identifiable weaknesses to his game. And Alzner exacerbates those weaknesses instead of covering for them. PK is fine, since the goal is solely to prevent goals. PP, also fine, since Drouin likely plays the point with Weber. But at even strength, when creating offense and transition is vitally important, its a big problem. And Montreal doesn't have a real solution to that problem.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

The fundamental argument against an Alzner-Weber pair is even strength. Pretty much everyone expects them to be the PK1 pair, since there's no icing on the PK and they'd be good defensively together. No one expects them to play together on the PP, since if Alzner needs to play PP minutes, Montreal is screwed. I think your missing the debate. We're discussing Alzner, and why it would be a mistake to partner him with Weber.

No, I'm not missing the debate. YOU are missing the most basic and fundamental argument that your best LD "should" play more than your 2nd best LD, who should then of course play more than your 3rd best LD. I made no specific mention of the PP. In 25 minutes of play on any given night, Weber is going to play with more than 1 partner, and I'd be banking on Alzner earning that ES role over Schlemko/Morrow/Jerabek/Davidson/Benn. They may also be the PK1 pair, but that's the one place where those other guys can probably earn minutes instead. All the arguments against Alzner on the top pair seem to be based on style above the actual "normal" workings of a team depth chart, and the hopes that someone better than Alzner will come along. I get it. But he's the best at the position right now, and that's why I expect he'll line up there unless things change (like Jerabek being the best ninja acquisition since Radulov, or something).

I'm not arguing against what people "hope for". I'm arguing against what people seem to expect.

As for the 3 years, it is always more prudent to use a 3 year sample, since players change dramatically. Weber isn't as good as he was five years ago, and its pretty ridiculous to expect he will be at his age and with the wear and tear he has on him.

He might not be quite as good (a top 10 season is a top 10 season, as far as I'm concerned), but he still plays the same way. And that's really all that matters if you're going to argue purely about stylistic compatibility.

Also, if you think Suter is "defense first and making simple, smart plays to get the puck moving", then you're mistaken. We're talking about a consistently involved D-man that puts up points, regularly carries the puck and stretches the ice with quick, accurate passes. He's basically a Markov with better mobility. Not even remotely comparable to Alzner. I suggest you set up a poll on the main board to see how many people actually agree with Suter =/= PMD and that Suter and Alzner are comparable. And spin-o-ramas are a red herring that aren't a big part of any D-man's repertoire, just highlight reels.

Well you better send out the memo to HF, then, who currently have voted Suter as the #2 shutdown defenseman in the NHL (up to #6 now)...

Don't make me laugh when it comes to Suter "regularly carries the puck"... So does Weber, if that's the kind of "carrying the puck" you're talking about, lol. Don't try to tell us that you see Suter carrying the puck across opponent bluelines with any sort of regularity, because I watch enough hockey to tell you you're wrong. Surely you're not giving him all kinds of bonus points for skating to the red line and dumping it in safely, which is by far the most common result of the puck being on Suter's stick in the neutral zone.

No one is arguing that Weber is bad, but that he's got clearly identifiable weaknesses to his game. And Alzner exacerbates those weaknesses instead of covering for them. PK is fine, since the goal is solely to prevent goals. PP, also fine, since Drouin likely plays the point with Weber. But at even strength, when creating offense and transition is vitally important, its a big problem. And Montreal doesn't have a real solution to that problem.

"Weaknesses", lol. In the theoretical world of the fantasy nerds, I guess. Like the "mobility concerns" we heard about constantly just to watch 0 players get around him off the rush. All. Year. Weber hit almost exactly his career average for points last year while tethered to Emelin for half of it. I don't know how that isn't enough to stop questioning whether or not Weber can still contribute offensively. At even strength he was almost an entire goal per 60 in the positive at ES (2.2 GF vs 1.4 GA), and that kind of differential will get you farther in the long run (especially 82 games of 25 minute samples) than, say, a guy who's on the ice for 2.4 GF vs 2.6 GA. More offense doesn't help when you're less effective defensively to a larger degree.

It's possible to assemble and coach different forward groups to function with different defensive groups. Will our forwards have to play a different set of systems than Nashville, for example? Sure. But they're no more certain to win more games by keeping the puck on their defensemen's sticks as opposed to getting it to forwards asap than any other team.

 

[VladTheLimpWhaler]

Just curious, how does a guy who finishes the year with a +/- of +20 become known as the one guy on your team who struggles at 5 on 5? +/- is an even strength stat.

Yet here we are, saying he has "clearly identifiable weaknesses" at 5 on 5, and "he's very offensively limited at 5 on 5"

This board sometimes...

 

[cphabs]

If Markov doesn't return...

Alzner will replace Markovs minutes even strength. He's not going to replace Markov on the PP though, I believe Drouin is going to be the first team PP QB like he was in Tampa. (Lightning led the league in PP goals FYI)

So Drouin will play center, left wing, and defense?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

So Drouin will play center, left wing, and defense?

I imagine he will play RW and QB the PP.

 

[Belial]

So Drouin will play center, left wing, and defense?

There are a lot of teams out there that use 4F + 1D on the PP.

Even we did it this season and I thought it was stupid because we had Markov sitting on the bench and no forward as dynamic as Drouin.

But now that we have Drouin and probably no more Markov I can definitely see them going, 4F+ Weber.

 

[the valiant effort]

Just curious, how does a guy who finishes the year with a +/- of +20 become known as the one guy on your team who struggles at 5 on 5? +/- is an even strength stat.

Yet here we are, saying he has "clearly identifiable weaknesses" at 5 on 5, and "he's very offensively limited at 5 on 5"

This board sometimes...

He simply doesn't produce a lot of points at ES though. Nevertheless he posted the best ES GA/60 of his career this season so it's no surprise he had a good plus-minus.

 

[cphabs]

I imagine he will play RW and QB the PP.

I'm for that.

 

[NotProkofievian]

For starters, your numbers are only 5-on-5, unless your version of puckalytics.com works differently from mine. Leaving out special teams ignores a pretty important component of a "typical" 25 minutes of work on any night for a guy like Weber. Furthermore, I don't think exploring just 3 years of an 11 year career makes much of a point. Especially when just a few years earlier he was a 1st team all-star in consecutive seasons "stapled" to a guy like Suter (next most common partner = Bouillon, btw) who is known for defense first and making simple, smart plays to get the puck moving, not entirely unlike Alzner. Suter has never, NEVER, been mistaken for Karlsson/Subban/whoever else does spinaramas.

There's nothing wrong with using a 3 year window to evaluate a player. It's first of all a very long sample size (a lot can change in 3 years), but not so long that the data is no longer believably relevant. I don't think 2011 Weber is the same player as 2017 Weber, do you?

Secondly, who do you think Weber was playing with on the powerplay, and other even strength scenarios? Powerplay + even strength accounts for around 90% of his minutes. Even if he were playing the last 10% with Douglas Murray it'd be a stretch to say that he was ''carrying lesser players on a regular routine basis.''

I would say Suter's pretty unlike Alzner, just on TOI alone (which I understand you're a fan of), nevermind ability. I understand it's a very high level comparison in style only but even that breaks down pretty quickly if the Alzner of last season is the Alzner we're getting (entirely possible).

I don't think I've suggested anything to the contrary. I still maintain that he makes things (other than carrying the puck, lol) look easier than they actually are for the average guy, and that the extremely vast majority of defensemen out there couldn't have nearly the on-ice impact of Weber playing a "similarly" simple game. And again, as it sits now, pretty much the only way Alzner doesn't play with him on the top pairing is if Markov returns and we continue to overuse him.

I wouldn't disagree that most players would not be nearly as effective as Weber if they tried to play like him. Most players aren't as effective as Weber no matter how they try to play. But he would be even better if we had a partner for him like Josi, Ekholm, Jones, or Suter.

...still not as good as Subban though.