Speculation: Almost a year later

[norrisnick]

They are lumped as last summer's deals...

Then why exclude Maatta, Perron, Kubalik?

Ignoring the 1 years as they don't matter anymore.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It was one of the biggest needs on the roster. It still needs improvement, but at least Copp is a functional placeholder.

Agreed. As was mentioned earlier hopefully he gets bumped down to 3c because there's a better option.

He took the second most faceoffs on the team after Larkin. The next closest guy had half as many, Veleno with 651.

Can you imagine if those 650 faceoffs were spread around among the remaining players? The Wings would've had even more trouble getting out of their own end.

 

[NickH8]

Then why exclude Maatta, Perron, Kubalik?

Ignoring the 1 years as they don't matter anymore.

Doesn't fit they Yzerman dumb narrative.

 

[PullHard]

I think a lot of the fanbase is looking at this thing as very game to game at this point with expectations of bubble playoff team.

I don't think the front office or ownership has any expectation of that at this point, and they are just trying to slowly build up a respectful pipeline and roster through draft, FA, trades.

Neither of the deals are so bad that they hurt anything about what we're doing. Copp is probably not a #2C on many teams in the league, but he scored a point above 0.5ppg in that role while only scoring 9 goals with a 7.5% shooting percentage (hint: he won't be that snakebitten again.) He's a fine top 6 player who would be better served sliding into a role that Bertuzzi had filled as a scoring winger, but being asked to do full time C duties is fine for him for the time being until Kasper and others are ready.

Chiarot sucks, he always has, but IMO we desperately needed a couple of big angry oafs who at least in theory make life more difficult for opposition. Unfortunately it seems as though the coaching staff is deploying him as though he's going to create offense and/ or shutdown the other team's very best players for a lot this past season. I hope as time moves on he settles into being a ~17-18 minute a night guy who kills penalties, hits often and hard, and will fight when needed. Yzerman definitely overpaid for that, but again - I fully believe we needed some of those guys in the worst way, and this team is still quite bad and the term attached to the deal doesn't impact anything in a negative way. We won't be competing for a cup by the time Chiarot's deal expires. His cap hit isn't blocking anything from happening.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Can someone point me to a move that the Chiarot deal is actually preventing us from making? Wasn’t the biggest fan of the deal when we signed it and I’m not now but it’s a non factor really.

Feel like people are still recovering from the late Holland era death by a million papercuts cap management. This team doesn’t really have any problematic contracts. Our problem is not having very many talented players to pay talented player money to.

 

[ricky0034]

the worst part of Chiarot is just....him being around for 3 more years at all

even if he's kept away from Seider and Edvinsson(and you just know at almost 5 million a year for 3 more years the team won't be able to resist trying him again with Seider at some point) I don't exactly want him dragging down Wallinder or whoever on the 3rd pair either

 

[PullHard]

Can someone point me to a move that the Chiarot deal is actually preventing us from making? Wasn’t the biggest fan of the deal when we signed it and I’m not now but it’s a non factor really.

Feel like people are still recovering from the late Holland era death by a million papercuts cap management. This team doesn’t really have any problematic contracts. Our problem is not having very many talented players to pay talented player money to.

Especially since it is looking like this year's UFA crop is slim pickings.

Getting a better player than Chiarot like Dumba, Orlov, Graves is probably going to cost quite a bit in UFA this summer. Similar caphit (probably $500k-1M more for Dumba and Orlov) and longer term, like 6 years minimum I'm assuming.

It is kinda pick your poison, you get a better player but they become "core" by default based on the term required to lock them in. That is assuming that players as impactful as Dumba or Orlov want to play for a bottom 10 team in a state that gets all four seasons and has state tax and all that nonsense. It is being heavily speculated that Orlov will only play in Florida IIRC.

 

[RRhoads]

We needed a center and the two obvious choices were Copp and Trocheck. I would for certain not want Trocheck's cap hit of $5.625M for six more years. I would rather have Copp's for four.

As for Chiarot, I wasn't happy about the term then, and I am still not happy. In his defense, he should never have been a top pairing defenseman. That just exposes him and his partner.

 

[SirloinUB]

We needed a Chariot. We didn’t need a Copp.

Chariot under performed. Copp was whatever.

The bolded indicates you haven’t been following this very closely.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Last summers big deals shouldn't be lumped together or it's "blatant trolling"? This word gets a new definition daily here. Care to explain how this is "trolling" or ?

You’re making it an all or nothing proposition and it’s not. Copp has been fine, if slightly overpaid. Chiarot has been well below par.

And if we didn’t sign Copp, we would need to sign a Copp-like player.

They shouldn’t be lumped together because it displays you have an axe to grind when you lump an okay player with a bad player to say both are bad.

 

[Gniwder]

We needed a center and the two obvious choices were Copp and Trocheck. I would for certain not want Trocheck's cap hit of $5.625M for six more years. I would rather have Copp's for four.

As for Chiarot, I wasn't happy about the term then, and I am still not happy. In his defense, he should never have been a top pairing defenseman. That just exposes him and his partner.

I dunno about that, given the salary structure it looks like an easy contract to dump with one or two years left if they need to. The 12 team NTC doesn't help though.

As for Chiarot, I would have overpaid Zadorov instead (which is what I said when UFA started). He showed some flashes of talent this season (I said flashes.... maybe he's just looks good against the Wings, lol, but his skating has improved a lot), and he's only 28.

Also, had Stevie not signed Chiarot, I'd be going after Graves in FA, but that ship has sailed. Too many LHD, not enough righties now.

 

[norrisnick]

I dunno about that, given the salary structure it looks like an easy contract to dump with one or two years left if they need to. The 12 team NTC doesn't help though.

As for Chiarot, I would have overpaid Zadorov instead (which is what I said when UFA started). He showed some flashes of talent this season (I said flashes.... maybe he's just looks good against the Wings, lol, but his skating has improved a lot), and he's only 28.

Also, had Stevie not signed Chiarot, I'd be going after Graves in FA, but that ship has sailed. Too many LHD, not enough righties now.

Zadorov, just like the theoretical Graves trade does not achieve what the other moves did. Leddy and Chiarot have more experience. Is it great experience? No, but even that helps for a team of kids.

 

[Leadzedder]

Last offseason we were hurting for LD and we needed a physical presence. So the Chariot signing made sense.

2C was a huge need. Enter Copp for 5 years. He’s a 3C. We have other options there.

So I guess we needed both roles filled. Both players fell short compared to contracts.

 

[Leadzedder]

The bolded indicates you haven’t been following this very closely.

I pay attention. Closely.

We needed a 2C. We didn’t need a Copp (3C) at that contract.

But maybe he gets better next year.

 

[Gniwder]

Zadorov, just like the theoretical Graves trade does not achieve what the other moves did. Leddy and Chiarot have more experience. Is it great experience? No, but even that helps for a team of kids.

LOL, as if that experience was of any use. You take the better player every day of the week. Not to mention both of them fit in better age wise for a rebuild.

Graves had already played with Makar, who's even better than Seider. Meanwhile Leddy and Chiarot had negative impact on their partner.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Copp had very serious core surgery before the season started. He missed training camp, the preseason and probably played way before he was ready. Realistically, Copp should have played closer to 60-65 games instead of the full season.

Despite the injury, Copp put up 42 points in 82 games where anyone paying attention could see he wasn't ready the first 15 or so games. And in April the whole team was dogshit so I can't point the finger at him explicitely.

Here's his season splits for the year.

plit	Value	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	EV	PP	SH	GW	S	S%	SHFT	TOI	ATOI
Month	October	9	0	3	3	-1	2	0	0	0	0	9	0.0	201	154:56	17:13
	November	13	2	8	10	0	4	1	1	0	1	18	11.1	290	226:46	17:27
	December	13	1	6	7	-1	2	1	0	0	0	19	5.3	275	221:18	17:01
	January	13	2	4	6	5	7	2	0	0	1	23	8.7	281	239:37	18:26
	February	12	1	4	5	4	4	1	0	0	0	13	7.7	268	217:14	18:06
	March	15	3	7	10	-6	4	2	0	1	0	26	11.5	349	298:07	19:52
	April	7	0	1	1	1	2	0	0	0	0	12	0.0	162	130:45	18:41

What I hope we see from Copp is at least another 10-12 goals next year while providing the same 2-way play. If he can do that then he's fine.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Then why exclude Maatta, Perron, Kubalik?

Ignoring the 1 years as they don't matter anymore.

I listed the most significant deals. Biggest cap hits...

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I listed the most significant deals. Biggest cap hits...

Perron is making 4.75M. Come on, man... be honest with your bad faith arguments.

 

[heyfolks]

Copp is the new Abby, but people don't want to see it because of Yzerman. five-year, $28.125 million . Average annual value of $5.625 million. He had a career year year, the right year.

Chiarot is the new Nielsen. He doesn't bring anything advertised. Worse, his terrible deal likely ended Hronek's time in Detroit. Four-year contract with an average annual value of $4.75 million.

As much as I can't stand the Chiarot deal, the Copp deal is worse.

 

[Shaman464]

Copp is the new Abby, but people don't want to see it because of Yzerman. five-year, $28.125 million . Average annual value of $5.625 million. He had a career year year, the right year.

Chiarot is the new Nielsen. He doesn't bring anything advertised. Worse, his terrible deal likely ended Hronek's time in Detroit. Four-year contract with an average annual value of $4.75 million.

As much as I can't stand the Chiarot deal, the Copp deal is worse.

I hate the deals but in no way are they comparable to Nielsen and Abby.

Abedelkader was a homegrown pick that overachieved playing with a guy that would make a peewee hockey player look good and Holland believed his own bullshit too much to see it.

Nielsen was a panic sign when Holland realized he wasn't going to get Stamkos to bail him out for not preparing for Datsyuk leaving. The closest analogy to this would have been Holland panic signing Ian White when he struck out on Suter after not having a post Lids plan.

 

[RabidBadger]

Copp is the new Abby, but people don't want to see it because of Yzerman. five-year, $28.125 million . Average annual value of $5.625 million. He had a career year year, the right year.

Copp had a career year this year (after missed games from surgery and on a new team). Aren't players supposed to have their best year before a contract so they can stop trying once the ink dries?

Copp and Abdel-jagoff are not even from the same planet.

 

[Shaman464]

Copp had a career year this year (after missed games from surgery and on a new team). Aren't players supposed to have their best year before a contract so they can stop trying once the ink dries?

Copp and Abdel-jagoff are not even from the same planet.

He didn't have a career year this year, he scored 53 points in 72 games last year. He regressed by 45% from last year in his ppg.

 

[RabidBadger]

He didn't have a career year this year, he scored 53 points in 72 games last year. He regressed by 45% from last year in his ppg.

Well, I'm a dummy and didn't notice the split in the year on his hockeydb stats. Regardless, I stand by my talky-talk points: surgery, new team, Abdelkader is crap.

 

[Shaman464]

Well, I'm a dummy and didn't notice the split in the year on his hockeydb stats. Regardless, I stand by my talky-talk points: surgery, new team, Abdelkader is crap.

The NHL.com stats page is hot garbage. Use hockey reference or other similar sites.

 

[Gniwder]

Copp had very serious core surgery before the season started. He missed training camp, the preseason and probably played way before he was ready. Realistically, Copp should have played closer to 60-65 games instead of the full season.

Despite the injury, Copp put up 42 points in 82 games where anyone paying attention could see he wasn't ready the first 15 or so games. And in April the whole team was dogshit so I can't point the finger at him explicitely.

Here's his season splits for the year.

plit	Value	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	EV	PP	SH	GW	S	S%	SHFT	TOI	ATOI
Month	October	9	0	3	3	-1	2	0	0	0	0	9	0.0	201	154:56	17:13
	November	13	2	8	10	0	4	1	1	0	1	18	11.1	290	226:46	17:27
	December	13	1	6	7	-1	2	1	0	0	0	19	5.3	275	221:18	17:01
	January	13	2	4	6	5	7	2	0	0	1	23	8.7	281	239:37	18:26
	February	12	1	4	5	4	4	1	0	0	0	13	7.7	268	217:14	18:06
	March	15	3	7	10	-6	4	2	0	1	0	26	11.5	349	298:07	19:52
	April	7	0	1	1	1	2	0	0	0	0	12	0.0	162	130:45	18:41

What I hope we see from Copp is at least another 10-12 goals next year while providing the same 2-way play. If he can do that then he's fine.

Look at his career numbers, his S% is the same as Joey, 10.6%, and 120 shots is around his 5 year average. That means you can expect 13 goals from him, not 20.

He got paid because his 25% shooting percentage with the Rangers elevated his stats the previous season. Reminds me of when Joel Ward hit pay dirt with a good playoff series but was never able to duplicate that success ever again.

Copp isn't ever going to be a Cup contender level 2C, stats aside, he doesn't have the skill set. Plays literally die on his stick. Lottery team 2C or Cup contender 3C. Stevie needs to find a player that can bump him down to his proper spot, and I'm not convinced it'll be Kasper.