Allen, Drewiske, Gilbert, Gonchar, Weaver

[optimus2861]

(Weaver) is not a bad dman and as mentioned was solid in last years postseason. As a number 7 guy I have no problem with him being on the team.

Again we come back to the roster-deployment problem that plagues Therrien's tenure with this team. I too am fine with Weaver as a #7 D. But that's not how Therrien's using him. Weaver is being used as a set-in-stone #5/#6 D, playing 12+ minutes a game, topping out at a ridiculous 21 minutes in the game in Calgary. Last night was the first time he's played less than 12 minutes.

This year's Weaver seems just a little bit slower on his skates, a little bit slower to read plays, a little less effective, and he had a thin margin to start with. He's not part of the future of this club; this may even be his last season. He simply shouldn't be playing every night. Nor should Gonchar, nor should Allen (Allen should simply be gone, he's trashheap material). Even Markov will need to be strategically rested as the season continues, since he's logging big minutes (nearly 27 last night).

Come May - if we get that far - the script writes itself. The 34+ guys will be out of gas, and we'll either get scorched on D or Therrien will be forced to turn to Beaulieu / Tinordi to try & save his ass. But of course he won't trust them because he refuses to play them now, and if they don't make miracles happen it will be another, "See, the kids aren't ready!" excuse.

Sigh. Therrien

 

[Sword]

Gilbert isn't very physical, but he's actually not that bad, he makes the simple plays and rarely puts the team in trouble.

Weaver blocks shots and that's the only thing he can do, as long as he doesn't get too much ice time, he should be fine.

Aside from Subban, our current defensemen are lacking speed and they'll get burned against fast skating teams. Can't wait to see them play the Hawks this week. Get used to watching our butts get kicked by the Rangers as well.

I like how Bergevin is rejuvenating our defense. He should sign a few more former teammates of his and players near his age.

 

[Smokey Thompson]

I wonder how long it'll take before we see Beaulieu and/or Tinordi back up with the team. The defence has been pretty horrible since they got sent down. Both are easy upgrades on Weaver and Allen.

 

[beowulf]

Again we come back to the roster-deployment problem that plagues Therrien's tenure with this team. I too am fine with Weaver as a #7 D. But that's not how Therrien's using him. Weaver is being used as a set-in-stone #5/#6 D, playing 12+ minutes a game, topping out at a ridiculous 21 minutes in the game in Calgary. Last night was the first time he's played less than 12 minutes.

This year's Weaver seems just a little bit slower on his skates, a little bit slower to read plays, a little less effective, and he had a thin margin to start with. He's not part of the future of this club; this may even be his last season. He simply shouldn't be playing every night. Nor should Gonchar, nor should Allen (Allen should simply be gone, he's trashheap material). Even Markov will need to be strategically rested as the season continues, since he's logging big minutes (nearly 27 last night).

Come May - if we get that far - the script writes itself. The 34+ guys will be out of gas, and we'll either get scorched on D or Therrien will be forced to turn to Beaulieu / Tinordi to try & save his ass. But of course he won't trust them because he refuses to play them now, and if they don't make miracles happen it will be another, "See, the kids aren't ready!" excuse.

Sigh. Therrien

I agree and is why I had previously posted that if this team continues with such an old defence corps, the coaches will have to manage their time or come playoff time, they will be in trouble with a tired group.

 

[Harry Wong]

Haven't had time to review the entire thread but...I'm with others in that I don't like all the old guys we have on defence and I thought Tinnordi and Beaulieu looked pretty good but inconsistent. We usually trade for veteran support before the tade deadline when the costs are higher.

Just wonder if the plan is to give Tinnordi and Beaulieu big minutes in Hamilton until the last 20games of the season in Montreal when they get brought up to give us a little younger energy boost in the playoffs and the older guys become back up?

Of course injuries up or down are a wild card.

And I don't get why Pateryn doesn't even warrant a look?

 

[Rapala]

I wonder how long it'll take before we see Beaulieu and/or Tinordi back up with the team. The defence has been pretty horrible since they got sent down. Both are easy upgrades on Weaver and Allen.

Is there a set number of games they can play here this year before changing the status of next years contract?

 

[Analyzer*]

This thread should be titled "*****es don't know about my additional pylons.

 

[habitue*]

I wonder how long it'll take before we see Beaulieu and/or Tinordi back up with the team. The defence has been pretty horrible since they got sent down. Both are easy upgrades on Weaver and Allen.

You have short or selective memory.

Allen and Gonchar were not on the team when the Habs had their worst losses. ( except the 5-0 loss in NY.

 

[nickd767]

Bergevin is always talking about this 5 year plan and has said that this year could be a write-off year if it means his team will be better next year, that being said yes i would love to see tinner and bealieu out there, but what if bergevin is saving them for next year, both of them are RFA's after this season, good play this year = more money to their contract, resign em for cheap and then start letting them play more?

fans and those two boys might not like it, but its a business and getting players for cheaper then they are worth is something important.

 

[Monctonscout]

I wonder how long it'll take before we see Beaulieu and/or Tinordi back up with the team. The defence has been pretty horrible since they got sent down. Both are easy upgrades on Weaver and Allen.

The part you're missing is those guys play a role. It's a role Beaulieu can't play(PK specialist).

Plus, those guys are better off playing 20+ minutes in all situations than 12-14 minutes here...at least for this year while they are still waiver exempt.

 

[25get]

Tinordi + Beaulieu need to play in the NHL. They have nothing left to learn in the AHL. They need to learn to adapt to the NHL game and playing regularly on a top-6 spot is the only way.

Seems a few think that Beaulieu's offense is top right now.
Where are they in this list?
Compare this to PK's rookie year (Beaulieu scored 10 points in his rookie season...).

You may be rushed to bring them in but look at Klefborn (drafted two picks after Beaulieu) still learning the ropes in AHL (if he would be ready, Edmonton would bring him as they need help on defence).

Even players drafted before Beaulieu: Oleksiak, Siemens and Murphy:
Colorado, Carolina and Dallas respectively drafted them but none of them are full time NHL'rs right now...
I would pretend that it is tougher to break Habs line-up than those teams: Colorado and Dallas could not make it to second round and best defense among those teams was 14th in the league.

Seems like d-men drafted in top-10 (Hamilton, Brodin, Larsson) are the only ones from the 2011 draft who can claim to be NHL'rs.

Seems to me that:

• Gilbert (30 points in 48 games in AHL made NHL at 25);
• Allen (Made NHL at 22 years old only despite being a 4th overall pick, still got 25 points in AHL before making it in NHL);
• Weaver (made it in NHL at 26 years old after scoring 35 points in AHL).

All have more mileage.

For now, Pateryn and Beaulieu have reached the level of these guys once...

Those 9 points by Tinordi are not so great: this is AHL and even a defensive D-men like Allen/Weaver could score 25/35 points.

Habs are now in top-10 in the league (7th right now) so it is tougher to make it in the line-up.

It is very simple, Pateryn, Tinordi and Beaulieu all have to prove that they are clearly superior than Gilbert, Weaver and Allen.
There is a lot of incentive for MB to bring them in as they have much less SCap...

Last year, Bouillon was hired to give more time for those d-men to get more seasoning in AHL.
Weaver and Allen are both signed for a year.
The reason seems simple enough: Habs management are hoping that Pateryn/Beaulieu (Weaver) and Beaulieu/Tinordi (Allen) will be able to replace them next year.

Pretty simple, like Deapthroat was saying, follow the money:

• Pateryn;
• Drewiske;
• Beaulieu;
• Tinordi.

Maybe there is something that I am missing.

Yes, the conspiration theory: MB and MT prefer to loose.
You can add: Churla, Lacroix, Jodoin, Daigneault, Timmins (who drafted them), Dudley, Carriere, Mellanby, Lapointe, Ramage, Lefebvre.
To me all these guys want to win and are doing everything they can to win a Cup...

So let's rephrase:

Tinordi + Beaulieu need to prove they can play in the NHL. They have nothing left to learn in the AHL except performing as good as Allen, Weaver and Gilbert. They need to learn to adapt to the NHL game as soon as they are ready and playing regularly on a top-6 spot is the only way unless they are not enough good to break top-6.

As far as I can see now promotion should be:
Nygren, Pateryn, Beaulieu and Tinordi (in that order).

Best NHL career looks like:
Beaulieu, Nygren, Tinordi, Pateryn.

Besides those players, we have a few wild cards: Bennett, Dietz.

 

[DAChampion]

Nygren, Pateryn, Beaulieu, Tinordi

No more than two will have good NHL careers. It's weird to think about it.

 

[Wats]

The way I see it:

1. Subban
2. Markov
3. ?
4. Emelin
5. Gonchar
6. Gilbert/Weaver
7. Allen

I don't mind Gonchar as #5 and alternating Weaver/Gilbert for #6.

Habs missing a solid #3. IMO that will really settle down the bottom pairings out.

 

[Monctonscout]

The way I see it:

1. Subban
2. Markov
3. ?
4. Emelin
5. Gonchar
6. Gilbert/Weaver
7. Allen

I don't mind Gonchar as #5 and alternating Weaver/Gilbert for #6.

Habs missing a solid #3. IMO that will really settle down the bottom pairings out.

You can say that for basically every NHL team. Most teams have a "Gilbert" on their 2nd pair.

 

[MathMan]

Habs missing a solid #3. IMO that will really settle down the bottom pairings out.

That's Gilbert's spot. And he's actually capable of doing that job, and he has demonstrated that with the Habs. The problem is that he does it in a way Therrien doesn't like, even if it is effective.

The problem is more with Emelin in the #4 spot. He's very hit-or-miss in that spot; ideally that's where you'd slot Beaulieu, as he's probably as good or better right now than anyone else the Habs might put in that spot.

Markov-Subban
Beaulieu-Gilbert
Emelin-Gonchar

There you go. Everyone even plays on their best side. You could swap Emelin with Beaulieu to begin with, to ease the young guy in.

Allen has no business being anything but an injury replacement. Weaver is valiant and all, but he's a #7 D on this club. I'd like to slot Tinordi in there somewhere too but that might be asking for too much.

 

[Ineverplayedthegame]

That's Gilbert's spot. And he's actually capable of doing that job, and he has demonstrated that with the Habs. The problem is that he does it in a way Therrien doesn't like, even if it is effective.

But Gilbert doesn't score points and as an offensive defenceman I'm pretty sure he should be scoring points.

* Ignore the fact that defenceman get the bulk of their points on the powerplay and that our powerplay has been systemically awfull this year, that Therrien himself is using him as a defensive zone specialist, that Gilbert isn't really an offensive defenceman anyway and that he just get that tag because of his skillset, despite the fact that he historically leverages his typically associated with offence skillset into overall 5on5 efficiency more than actual offence.

 

[MathMan]

* Ignore the fact that defenceman get the bulk of their points on the powerplay and that our powerplay has been systemically awfull this year, that Therrien himself is using him as a defensive zone specialist, that Gilbert isn't really an offensive defenceman anyway and that he just get that tag because of his skillset, despite the fact that he historically leverages his typically associated with offence skillset into overall 5on5 efficiency more than actual offence.

He's not unlike Raphael Diaz in that sense, except much better. And he's getting the same treatment from Therrien.

 

[Runner77]

I wonder how long it'll take before we see Beaulieu and/or Tinordi back up with the team. The defence has been pretty horrible since they got sent down. Both are easy upgrades on Weaver and Allen.

I'm reading good things about Nygren.

Might he be next to get a call, should a spot open?

 

[DAChampion]

He's not unlike Raphael Diaz in that sense, except much better. And he's getting the same treatment from Therrien.

What are the numbers for Gilbert being very good? Which advanced stats suggest him to be a respectable second pairing dman?

 

[MathMan]

What are the numbers for Gilbert being very good? Which advanced stats suggest him to be a respectable second pairing dman?

At 48.47%, Tom Gilbert's Fenwick (includes shots, misses, and blocks) is slightly below the team's average. His "Fenwick Relative" stat is -1.39%, which is basically the difference in possession between when he's on the ice versus when he's on the bench; this measures his impact relative to the team.

That may not look too impressive on the surface, except that:
- Of the current Habs regular defensemen*, only Markov and Subban are better in Fenwick Relative (though Gonchar is only slightly lower)
- His offensive-to-defensive zonestart ratio is heavily defensive, at 41.42%, with only Weaver and Tinordi being buried in the D-zone more. And the gap with Emelin (45.88%) is significant.
- To measure the strength of opposition, the weighed time-on-ice of opponents is a commonly used measure as good players do tend to get more icetime. By this measure, Gilbert ranks just behind Emelin as fourth on the team (Subban and Markov are way ahead, of course).

*: It should be noted that both Tinordi and Beaulieu have very good possession metrics (Beaulieu actually leads the team), though they both faced bottom-pair competition and Beaulieu has gotten an offensive faceoff push comparable to Markov and Subban.

TL;DR: He's been given some of the hardest minutes on the team, being deployed as a dedicated defensive specialist, yet maintains the third-best possession numbers on the team. He gets tough minutes on a weak possession team and stays afloat. And he's done this with a very dubious succession of partners including more than a few shifts on the left.

Here's a link to the number including an illustrative deployment chart: http://war-on-ice.com/playertable.h...rt1=2014-10-01&end1=2014-12-03&splitseasons=0