All Time Best Players - Lists by their contemporaries

[tarheelhockey]

Interesting contrast between these two statements:

“No, no Eddie Shore this time. I’m naming defence players and Shore, good as he was, never would have been the player he’s rated if it wasn’t for Lionel Hitchman, “Hitch”, to my mind, was one of the most underrated players of all time as a defenceman. Eddie drew a lot of the credit, but you ask any of those who played against them who they’d want out there if it was a one-man defence. They’d say Shore because they could get around him. None of them ever relished the task of getting by Hitchman.”

Coleman mentioned of Orr “Defensively, he wasn’t quite as strong or as mean as Eddie Shore, but who was?”

Cooper Smeaton was already a seasoned referee and executive during Shore’s career. He probably saw as much of Shore as anyone besides teammates and season-ticket holders.

Shore was at his peak when Coleman started writing — in Winnipeg. I can’t pin down exactly what year Coleman moved to Toronto, but it wasn’t likely in time to see Shore in live action.

Interesting to see the development of Shore’s reputation from his generational peers, to younger contemporaries who may not have actually seen him (or did so with a less critical eye), to the golden glow a half-century later.

 

[tinyzombies]

March 5, 1938 - Le Soleil, Quebec

 

[Professor What]

Something that strikes me is that there's a lot of George's Vezina and not so much Clint Benedict. Statistically, Benedict looks better to me, despite their being on generally balanced teams. I wonder if there was something visual that favored Vezina and made him pass the eye test over Benedict. I really wish there was a cache of video of the two of them to see.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Something that strikes me is that there's a lot of George's Vezina and not so much Clint Benedict. Statistically, Benedict looks better to me, despite their being on generally balanced teams. I wonder if there was something visual that favored Vezina and made him pass the eye test over Benedict. I really wish there was a cache of video of the two of them to see.

Benedict's "better stats" are Wins, GAA, and Shutouts, and he just so happened to spend most of his prime for what was probably the most dominant defensive team of all-time, relative to it's competition.

C: Frank Nighbor - the best "hookchecker" of all-time, best defensive forward of his era by a wide margin.
D: Some mix of Eddie Gerard, Sprague Cleghorn, Georges Boucher, young King Clancy
RW: Punch Broadbent or Hooley Smith or Jack Darragh
Only LW (usually Cy Denneny) wasn't noted as an excellent defensive player.

The also played a system that could be simplistically described as an early version of the trap.

In case you couldn't tell, I put a lot of emphasis on contemporary opinion when comparing players of the same generation.

 

[Professor What]

Benedict's "better stats" are Wins, GAA, and Shutouts, and he just so happened to spend most of his prime for what was probably the most dominant defensive team of all-time, relative to it's competition.

C: Frank Nighbor - the best "hookchecker" of all-time, best defensive forward of his era by a wide margin.
D: Some mix of Eddie Gerard, Sprague Cleghorn, Georges Boucher, young King Clancy
RW: Punch Broadbent or Hooley Smith or Jack Darragh
Only LW (usually Cy Denneny) wasn't noted as an excellent defensive player.

The also played a system that could be simplistically described as an early version of the trap.

In case you couldn't tell, I put a lot of emphasis on contemporary opinion when comparing players of the same generation.

I don't blame you one bit for that, and I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. I've just long been curious about the two of them in comparison to each other, and this thread has stirred that up again. If I ever manage to pull a "Doctor" and steal a TARDIS, one of the first places I'm going is back to watch these two. LOL. Discussions like this really make me wish a time machine was a real thing.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sorry if this was a duplicate, but in 1962 Aurele Joliat gives his best all-time players via interview: https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/aurele-joliat-recalls-the-early-days-of-hockey

Best player: Morenz "he was the most talented, the most natural, and the greatest and truest hockey player that ever lived."

All-time team:
G: Georges Vezina
D: Herb Gardiner "wonderful defenseman from the West"
D: Eddie Shore
LW: Busher Jackson
C: Howie Morenz
RW: Bill Cook

When asked about no Richard, he said "No. I haven't followed the game enough to make that statement (including him on a list)."

Gordie Howe "is the greatest hockey player in the game today."

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Sorry if this was a duplicate, but in 1962 Aurele Joliat gives his best all-time players via interview: https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/aurele-joliat-recalls-the-early-days-of-hockey

Best player: Morenz "he was the most talented, the most natural, and the greatest and truest hockey player that ever lived."

All-time team:
G: Georges Vezina
D: Herb Gardiner "wonderful defenseman from the West"
D: Eddie Shore
LW: Busher Jackson
C: Howie Morenz
RW: Bill Cook

When asked about no Richard, he said "No. I haven't followed the game enough to make that statement (including him on a list)."

Gordie Howe "is the greatest hockey player in the game today."

I've seen this one floating around, but I guess it wasn't posted here. Thanks for adding it.

Should be taken with something of a grain of salt though, as Vezina, Gardiner, and Morenz were all Joliat's teammates.

 

[VanIslander]

Nobody has Conn Smythe's list? I don't because, while...

In 2013 I read his semi-autobiographical book "If You Can't Beat 'Em in the Alley", i donated my 200+ all-read hockey history book collection along with a pair of size 12 ice skates and a similar pair of roller skates to the island's museum (the biggest island in South Korea is Jeju, where i lived for 7 years before returning to the mainland). I was age 48 and - now three years later questioning it - thought then i was being wise by moving on.

Conn Smythe...

I recall he said Ted Kennedy was a good captain but the greatest Leaf captain ever was clearly George Armstrong! Conn Smythe gushed about Armstrong's leadership.

Shouldn't the top-200 HOH project consider the greatest captain of the Leafs' last dynasty?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I've seen this one floating around, but I guess it wasn't posted here. Thanks for adding it.

Should be taken with something of a grain of salt though, as Vezina, Gardiner, and Morenz were all Joliat's teammates.

Certainly, but it is interesting that he spent very little time with Gardiner (who didn't appear to have overwhelming seasons at a glance) and still chose him as his #1 d-man...I think the only other person who had Gardiner on their top team was Lalonde, who I guess played against him for a couple seasons on the coast...

I guess my main thing is, Joliat probably had a lot of really good teammates, and still went with a short-time one in Gardiner...maybe he reay left a mark with him...? Not to read too much into an interview from 30 years after the fact...

 

[ted2019]

Nobody has Conn Smythe's list? I don't because, while...

In 2013 I read his semi-autobiographical book "If You Can't Beat 'Em in the Alley", i donated my 200+ all-read hockey history book collection along with a pair of size 12 ice skates and a similar pair of roller skates to the island's museum (the biggest island in South Korea is Jeju, where i lived for 7 years before returning to the mainland). I was age 48 and - now three years later questioning it - thought then i was being wise by moving on.

Conn Smythe...

I recall he said Ted Kennedy was a good captain but the greatest Leaf captain ever was clearly George Armstrong! Conn Smythe gushed about Armstrong's leadership.

Shouldn't the top-200 HOH project consider the greatest captain of the Leafs' last dynasty?

Ted Kennedy was safely on the list in 2018.

 

[Doctor No]

Percy LeSueur's list (or anecdata) mentioned above, Ottawa Journal, February 25, 1944.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Thanks for these!

An attempt at systemizing the information posted so far:

GOALTENDERS

Percy LeSueur (*1881):

• Various sports writers/Charlie Good (1924/1925): second all-time ("as good as Vezina, but didn't wear as well")
• Fred 'Cyclone' Taylor (1942): best goaltender
• Fred 'Cyclone' Taylor (1946/1947): all-time all-star team

Harry 'Dutchy' Morrison (*1882):

• L.F. Earl (1943/1944): either Morrison or Charlie Gardiner would make the all-time all-star team

Georges Vézina (*1887):

• Various sports writers/Charlie Good (1924/1925): all-time all-star team ("for year in and year out consistency")
• Aurèle Joliat (1936/1937): 'oldtimers' all-star team ("was a wonder in the nets")
• Sprague Cleghorn (1941): "best goaltender"
• Cooper Smeaton (1942/1943): 'oldtimers' all-star team
• Alf Smith (1943/1944): "greatest goalie of his time"
• Mickey Ion (1943/1944): 1910-20 all-star team and all-time all-star team
• Aurèle Joliat (1948/1949): one of the two best goaltenders Joliat had played with or against (the other being George Hainsworth)
• Frank Selke (1948/1949): 1900-1926 all-star team

Hap Holmes (*1888):

• Duke Keats (1942/1943): all-time all-star team

George Hainsworth (*1895):

• Aurèle Joliat (1936/1937): 'recent times' all-star team ("outstanding in goal")
• Bill Cook (1937/1938): all-time all-star team
• Mickey Ion (1943/1944): one of two goalies on the 1930-1940 all-star team (the other being Tiny Thompson)
  
• Newsy Lalonde (1947/1948): all-time all-star team ("even ahead of Vezina, on his record alone")
• Aurèle Joliat (1948/1949): one of the two best goaltenders Joliat had played with or against (the other being Georges Vézina)
• Bill Cook (1951/1952): all-time all-star team

Alec Connell (*1900):

• Tommy Gorman (1941): the best goaltender Gorman ever saw

Roy Worters (*1900):

• Lionel Conacher (1941): "the greatest goalie who ever played"
• Jim Hendy (1942/1943): 1930-1940 third all-star team (behind Tiny Thompson and Charlie Gardiner)

Tiny Thompson (*1903):

• Red Dutton (1938/1939): all-time all-star team
• Ebbie Goodfellow (1941/1942): first all-star team among players Goodfellow had played against (ahead of Charlie Gardiner)
• Jim Hendy (1942/1943): 1930-1940 all-star team (ahead of Charlie Gardiner)
  
• Mickey Ion (1943/44): one of the two goalies 1930-1940 all-star team (the other being George Hainsworth)

Charlie Gardiner (*1904):

• Hap Holmes (1937/1938): all-time all-star team ("moved so that he was in front of practically every shot")
• Ebbie Goodfellow (1941/1942): second all-star team among player Goodfellow had played against (behind Tiny Thompson)
• Cooper Smeaton (1942/1943): 'modern' all-star team
• Jim Hendy (1942/1943): 1930-1940 second all-star team (behind Tiny Thompson)
• L.F. Earl (1943/1944): either Gardiner or Dutchy Morrison would make the all-time all-star team
• Frank Boucher (1947/1948): all-time all-star team
• Frank Boucher (1949/1950): all-time all-star team ("probably the greatest goaltender of them all")
• Dick Beddoes (1961): all-time all-star team

Frank Brimsek (*1951):

• Art Ross (1939/1940): best goaltender of all times

Theo, I noticed you forgot Clint Benedict here, even though he appeared a few times.

I'm not 100% sure what you are calling a "mention," so I figured I'd flag this for you, rather than trying to count them up myself.

 

[Theokritos]

Theo, I noticed you forgot Clint Benedict here, even though he appeared a few times.

Fixed, plus I made a few additions from later posts in this thread.

 

[Michael Farkas]

This may or may not go here, sorry...

Gene Tunney, who seems to know a lot about hockey, picked an all star team in the New York Times, Mar. 30, 1930...

"Easy. In the nets I'd have Georges Vezina...I'm picking the old positions seven-man style, so I'll put Les Patrick at point. For cover point, I'll take Hod Stuart and at rover we'll have Cyclone Taylor, than whom there was no more than whomer. He was the greatest ever. Center, Frank McGhee (there's previous explanation of him scoring five goals in a minute in the Stanley Cup match between Ottawa and Dawson City. And that he scored 16 of the 23 goals.).

For right wing, Scotty Davidson and for left wing, Tommy Phillips. For defense spares I'd take Frank Patrick and Art Ross and for forward spares Russell Bowie and Frank Nighbor.

When asked about current players, he said, "they're good boys, and it's still a great game, but I'm sticking to my nominations."

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sorry, do we have this one too...?

New York Times - Jan. 15, 1931

Interview with Eddie Gerard...

Q: Who were the best players, excluding members from your own team?

"I like Howie Morenz, Frankie Boucher, King Clancy, Eddie Shore, Nels Stewart - oh there are lots of good players. Clancy and Morenz are great two-way players. They come back as fast as they go down.

Mentions his Ottawa Senators teams that won a lot (only team team to travel to the Coast (west) and win) but wasn't allowed to pick them, obviously...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

and at rover we'll have Cyclone Taylor, than whom there was no more than whomer.

wut?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, I only typed that part because it was so confusing and I had several hard ciders and kept reading it to myself in the most gregarious voice...

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

One name that always pops out from these lists for me is Joliat.

My perception before looking was that he was a good player who was probably buoyed by playing with Morenz, but he gets an awful lot of all-time team votes in this format.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I was listening to the Roy Green show on the radio this afternoon (AM 640 in Toronto). He had a conversation with Guy Carbonneau. Green asked Carbonneau for his all-time starting line-up:

• C - he first said Gretzky, then considered Lemieux, but went with Gretzky
• RW - he first named (Brett) Hull, then changed it to Lafleur
• D - immediately named Orr, there was a long pause, then picked Lidstrom
• G - Roy (noting that he may be biased since they won two Cups together)
• LW - he said it was "always tough" to pick LW, then went with Maurice Richard

In fairness to Carbonneau, it sounds like the interviewer put him on the spot, so it's not like he had a prepared list. Four of his six choices are straightforward. Neither Carbonneau or the host acknowledged that Richard would be out of position at LW. It was surprising Howe wasn't even mentioned (especially when Brett Hull was his first, though not final, choice at RW).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I was listening to the Roy Green show on the radio this afternoon (AM 640 in Toronto). He had a conversation with Guy Carbonneau. Green asked Carbonneau for his all-time starting line-up:

• C - he first said Gretzky, then considered Lemieux, but went with Gretzky
• RW - he first named (Brett) Hull, then changed it to Lafleur
• D - immediately named Orr, there was a long pause, then picked Lidstrom
• G - Roy (noting that he may be biased since they won two Cups together)
• LW - he said it was "always tough" to pick LW, then went with Maurice Richard

In fairness to Carbonneau, it sounds like the interviewer put him on the spot, so it's not like he had a prepared list. Four of his six choices are straightforward. Neither Carbonneau or the host acknowledged that Richard would be out of position at LW. It was surprising Howe wasn't even mentioned (especially when Brett Hull was his first, though not final, choice at RW).

No mention of Bobby Hull either.

 

[pandro]

I was kind of puzzled by how often the names of Tommy Phillips and Scotty Davidson were mentioned, considering they played just a handful of games. I wonder if those mentioning them actually saw them play or went by word of mouth.
Same goes for Alf Smith. Seeing as he played his last game in 1909, I wonder how many saw him play, even as kids.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I was kind of puzzled by how often the names of Tommy Phillips and Scotty Davidson were mentioned, considering they played just a handful of games. I wonder if those mentioning them actually saw them play or went by word of mouth.

Especially in Tommy Phillips case, he didn't actually play that few games relative to contemporaries

He just peaked in the MHA which wasn't the top league of the early 1900s and then trailed off with a couple good seasons in the ECHA and PCHA.

 

[DN28]

The Border Cities Star - Feb 23, 1927

I believe this team hasn't yet been mentioned in the thread.
Lester Patrick's all time All-Star Team selected from retired players.

Goalies:
Paddy Moran
Percy LeSueur

Defensemen:
Ernie "Moose" Johnson
Hod Stuart
Si Griffis

Forwards:
Frank McGee
Russell "Dubby" Bowie
Fred "Cyclone" Taylor
Tom Phillips
Billy Gilmour

 

[overpass]

1939/40

Art Ross (HHOF 1949)

Picked the best players of all-time (Also see 1943/44)

Goalie: Frank Brimsek (He also selected him when picking the best goalie in 1941)

Defenceman: Eddie Shore

Defenceman: Hod Stuart

Center: Cyclone Taylor & Frank Nighbor & Syl Apps & Howie Morenz & Russell Bowie & Milt Schmidt

Right Winger: Bill Cook

Left Winger: Tommy Phillips

“I have not attempted to rank the centres in order. Every one of them would be able to step out with Phillips and Cook and be the greatest scoring line in hockey’s history.”

Basil "Baz" O'Meara of the Montreal Star commented on Art Ross's all-time team in his November 30, 1939 column.

O'Meara didn't give a complete team of his own but commented that Gardiner and Benedict should rate over Brimsek in goal. He agreed with Cook at RW, ahead of Scotty Davidson, Charlie Conacher, and Alf Smith, and said he would take Joliat at LW but anyone would settle for Phillips,

O'Meara was not impressed with Milt Schmidt's presence on Ross's list, and listed a number of centres who should have been ahead of him, including Cooney Weiland, Joe Malone, Newsy Lalonde, Bill Cowley, Neil Colville, and Frank McGee.

I think his comments on the defence were most interesting. O'Meara was not an Eddie Shore fan, and pointed out that Ching Johnson and Lionel Hitchman were stronger defensively than Shore, but admitted that Shore was far ahead as an attacker. Then he named his five best two way defencemen in all of hockey history. Eddie Gerard, Eddie Shore, Frank Clancy, Sprague Cleghorn, and Hod Stuart.

 

[Michael Farkas]

O'Meara was not an Eddie Shore fan, and pointed out that Ching Johnson and Lionel Hitchman were stronger defensively than Shore, but admitted that Shore was far ahead as an attacker.

Like.