Speculation: All Things Pete DeBoer - Part II

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guitarguyvic

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Mar 31, 2010
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That last part, to me, is more eye opening than the first part, and cements what Jagr was saying as the honest opinion of a veteran that's been on a lot of different teams and in a lot of different systems.

It wasn't a stock 'it's not the coach, it's us' answer by Jagr. He's aware of the struggles of the team and where they are in the standings, and yet is telling you that this would be worse if not for the coaches. Wow.

It's just not a necessary comment, unless it was really what Jagr felt.

The only way this team could be any worse is if they were dead last in the entire league without even a hint of being able to get out of the cellar. You actually think Pete is what is preventing that from happening? Jagr is just going to bat for a coach that he liked...and why does he like him? Because he gets top line minutes from him.
 

guitarguyvic

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Do you actually think DeBoer wants to play Jagr as his 1st line RW?

Let's look at the situation honestly for a second. There is hardly another RW in the organization... Bernier, Ryder? What is this coach to do? What is any coach to do?

He most certainly could reduce his role to some degree, minutes wise. But you are right Pete has few options. That's kind of besides the point though. Bottom line is, Jagr is in a great situation for himself personally so why would he want to do anything to rock that boat? You never know what a new coach might cone in and do, what kind of changes might follow. If I'm Jagr I want everything to stay Status Quo regardless of on ice performance.
 

Benedict Parisechuk

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None of the vets are going to say anything damning about Pete. The country club atmosphere and lack of accountability reigns supreme throughout the organization right now. I like Jagr but we might be the only team in the league that he could get first line minutes on and have carte blanche to do whatever he wants. That absolutely is a huge factor in why he never is going to criticize Pete.

Somebody should tell Jagr that we have 8 wins in 28 games and have the most unwatchable product in the league. It really can't get any worse.
 

Bleedred

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btw the second part of Jagr's quote got left out:



A lot worse than three wins in fourteen games?! Damn, I'd hate to see worse than that :laugh:

What I wanna know is, what system? Doesn't look like there is much of one at all anymore.
 

Devs4L

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The quote from Jagr is not about what it isn't. Of course no one expects Jagr to criticize Pete to the media. Trying to rationalize or minimize it that way is weak, and ignores all context and substance of the quote.

Jagr's honesty in conveying how much blame he thinks the coach should get is clear. He couldn't be any clearer.
 
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Devs4L

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Why wouldn't anybody be putting stock into the quotes of one of the most astute and respected hockey minds out there?

I do believe however that some of the veterans are too comfortable with this situation and for some of the reasons you mentioned.

We'd rather put stock in the quotes of 22 year olds that get healthy scratched.
 

Camille the Eel

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None of the vets are going to say anything damning about Pete. The country club atmosphere and lack of accountability reigns supreme throughout the organization right now. I like Jagr but we might be the only team in the league that he could get first line minutes on and have carte blanche to do whatever he wants. That absolutely is a huge factor in why he never is going to criticize Pete.

Somebody should tell Jagr that we have 8 wins in 28 games and have the most unwatchable product in the league. It really can't get any worse.

What exactly do you mean by "country club atmosphere?" To me that usually means a team doesn't practice hard, or play hard, while stuffing themselves at the buffet. I have no opinion on practices and motivation off the ice but to me they do seem to play hard but without success; they just get their ***** kicked grinding away at elementary stuff, and being bad at it, while other teams skate rings around them.
 

SladeWilson23

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I'm not at all surprised Jagr defended him. But Lou needs to have the balls to be willing to send a message. I want a coaching change not necessarily to become better, and win more games this year. I want a coaching change to change the brand of hockey that hasn't worked for 3 years. It's a boring system to watch when you don't have the skilled players to make it work. The Devils used to be a team that made opposing teams earn their wins. I feel as if we get scored on in the same way every single game. And we make the same mistakes every single game.
 

tr83

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What exactly do you mean by "country club atmosphere?" To me that usually means a team doesn't practice hard, or play hard, while stuffing themselves at the buffet. I have no opinion on practices and motivation off the ice but to me they do seem to play hard but without success; they just get their ***** kicked grinding away at elementary stuff, and being bad at it, while other teams skate rings around them.

The Philly game was a disgrace. They weren't moving their feet, always seemed to be chasing the puck, etc. There are at LEAST 10 other games where they didn't play with any heart. In the Chicago game, the effort was there, clearly.

Zidlicky makes mistakes often with no consequences. In fact, Pete gives him the "A". Meanwhile, Gelinas, Larsson, and Josefson make one little mistake and they get stapled to the bench or banished to the press box. Pete gave Eric a tongue lashing when he got to the bench after some sequence last night

The vets can't do any wrong on this team. There was a stretch where we were questioning if they were practicing enough.

I'm convinced that this team doesn't practice enough. They're out of position often and they can't string more than 3 consecutive passes together.
 

Team Concept

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None of the vets are going to say anything damning about Pete. The country club atmosphere and lack of accountability reigns supreme throughout the organization right now. I like Jagr but we might be the only team in the league that he could get first line minutes on and have carte blanche to do whatever he wants. That absolutely is a huge factor in why he never is going to criticize Pete.

Somebody should tell Jagr that we have 8 wins in 28 games and have the most unwatchable product in the league. It really can't get any worse.

Its almost like winning is not important anymore. The Devils are like a family. We welcome back players who have left the family. We can't let anyone go because they are family. Its not a business to the Devils. Its a family.
 

Benedict Parisechuk

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Its almost like winning is not important anymore. The Devils are like a family. We welcome back players who have left the family. We can't let anyone go because they are family. Its not a business to the Devils. Its a family.

This is why I'm very scared of who might end up replacing Lou and Pete eventually. If it's more of the in house, "Devils hockey" people, then we're gonna continue to be stuck in mud. They need an entirely new regime with an entirely new philosophy. The organization needs a clean slate.
 

HockeyNovice

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Maybe you just need players who are able to score.
Always shot one more than you get.
Just that simple.
 

ForeverJerseyGirl

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I’m new here, so please don’t jump down my throat, even though coaching discussions can always get a bit heated.:) I don’t pretend to know what to do about the coaching situation, because everything seems a bit convoluted, but here are some of my disjointed musings on the subject:

One: Last I checked, the Devils were the second most penalized team in the league.:amazed: This is a disturbing trend because the Devils, historically, have been one of the least penalized teams in the NHL. Part of the team’s taking a ton of penalties is probably rooted in the fact that many of our roster members are slow so they take a lot of stupid penalties trying to clutch, grab, and trip the opponent down to their snail pace, as can be seen in the fact that a lot of the most penalized Devils are also the ones who lack any semblance of foot speed.:help: The roster’s slowness can’t be laid at Pete’s feet, but I do feel like the lack of discipline excessive penalties typically indicate is at least partially his fault. Players who take dumb penalties need to start getting benched for hurting the team, and the good thing is most of the players who take boneheaded penalties aren’t that great additions to the team, so not that much is lost when benching them.

Two: The Devils often enter games with a disconcerting absence of energy. Pete isn’t fully to be blamed for this because NHL players should be able to motivate themselves and Lou could have assembled a roster that didn’t have an average age more suited to playing bingo in a retirement home, but a coach still is responsible for getting his players prepared for the games, especially ones against divisional rivals (a la the Flyers) or against teams in similar slots in the standings where the team could really seize an opportunity to gain points. The coach has to be at least somewhat accountable for the fact that the team starts many games where they should be competitive from first puck drop flatter than Death Valley, and he also has demonstrated with some of his post game comments about thinking that efforts that were almost objectively abysmal were somehow good a troubling inability to identify what his actually a solid effort and what is a truly nauseating performance. :shakehead

Three: This team seems to have all the mental resiliency of a Dixie Cup being run over by a Ram truck, and honestly, we’ve reached the point where I’m surprised when this group has a good response to something (like Merrill’s response goal in the Dallas game). :cry:Players are obviously to blame for that lack of mental toughness, but some of that vibe definitely stems from the coach. Whenever something bad happens (like the other team scores or gets a power play), Pete gets a mopey expression on his face as if his cat died instead of saying something to rally his troops. After every game, he’s also more filled with excuses about “tough†buildings than he is answers As a fan I don’t have a lot of confidence and respect in him because of these factors, so I just find it hard to imagine the locker room can hold him in high esteem even if they do like him as a person and not want to see him fired.

Four: The pattern of blown leads really bugs me. Part of the blame for blown leads obviously rests with players making poor decisions, but when there is a pattern of blown leads, it’s hard to just blame individual players and not hold the coach at least partially responsible. Also, while the team’s offense outside of a handful of forwards (Henrique, Cammy, and maybe Jagr are probably the only guys who would be in another team’s top six forwards to be brutally honest) is hopeless at scoring goals, I still believe that if a team has enough offensive firepower to gain a lead, they should be able to win the game. Maybe it’s just optics, but as a fan I hate blown leads more than failed comebacks, because with a blown lead the game was there to be won, and it just slipped away.The bottom line is just that a team with this little firepower needs to be better at maintaining the leads it gets. It’s sad to say, but now the Devils can have a three goal lead (a la the game against the Red Wings), and I’ll still be wondering how they’ll manage to cough up the lead and the win. Again, if I don’t have confidence in this team’s ability to win even with a sizable lead, how should the players feel?

Five: I think that this organization needs to focus a lot on developing the young guys that we have because they can hopefully bring about a brighter future (one that might even include the lofty air of the playoffs) so it’s important to have a coach who is good developmentally with players. In my opinion, I don’t regard Pete as being categorically bad with young players, since I think he’s done well with Henrique and Severson (thus far, anyway), and he seems to have a pretty solid trust in Merrill. Pete’s relationship with Gelinas seems middle ground, because Gelinas seems to get in trouble for things that Zid can get away with, but Gelinas does seem to understand why Pete handles him the way he does. Mainly it’s Larsson and Josefson who seem mystified about how they can end up in the press box so much, and they seem to have struggled the most under Pete. I remember Larsson doing well under Robinson, who was always very respectful and gentle with the players, so perhaps Larsson and Josefson need someone to come in to the organization and communicate with them in a less harsh way than Pete seems to prefer to use with young players. It seems that some players develop fine under Pete’s harder approach, but I think some players benefit from a bit softer a touch. Learning how to handle players of different temperaments is one of the biggest challenges of being a coach, and I don’t know how much time Pete has left to learn with the Devils.

Six: I don’t think that Pete is the best coach for this roster (because I’d like to think that it could have a bit more wins in a weak Metro division), but then I’m not a big fan of the NHL coaching options out there right now, so I’m not sure how much of an upgrade is realistically available. Maybe we’re better just waiting for the off-season and hoping somebody more suitable comes on the market then and is willing to come to this quagmire.

Seven: I do understand that the locker room might like the coach (although they clearly can’t play well enough to give him anything that resembles a winning record whether due to lack of motivation or sheer shortage of ability), but they have to face the reality that sports is a results-driven industry. When a team underperforms as much as the Devils had, players risk getting traded and coaches risk getting fired. Even if the players are sad to see Pete go, the expectation should be that they’ll be professional enough to handle any coaching change without much complaining. Given the pathetic state of the team this year, getting this derailed organization back on track is more important than sparing players’ feelings.

TL;DR: The bottom line is that when an organization has reached the epic levels of terrible that this franchise has, everyone from Lou and Pete down to the fourth liners and seventh defensemen bear some responsibility for this disaster on skates. What Pete’s level of accountability for this mess is and what the consequences for his part in the Devils failure to ice a competitive team this season (and seasons past) should be is up for debate. I’m not going to send management angry emails screaming that Pete should have been fired yesterday, but I also won’t cry like a baby if he’s kicked to the curb.
 

Emperoreddy

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Of course he's not going to throw the coach under the bus publicly (especially one that's going to play him on the first line)...but there's a slight difference between a stock, noncommittal answer and vehemently backing Pete the way Jagr does.

Cory also completely backed Pete last night too. It's not just Jagr.
 

ForeverJerseyGirl

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Jerseygirl, that is a terrific post and I agree. :nod:

Thanks:D It ended up being a bit longer than I intended, but I just couldn't find a more concise way to express myself. I'm glad I could express what we were both thinking and feeling. It's good to know that I'm not alone with my befuddled thoughts and feelings.
 

Cheddabombs

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Agreed ^ The players need to take responsibility for their actions just as much as Pete and Lou. And I understand Pete doesn't have the best roster at his disposal.

But it's his personnel decisions that absolutely drive me mental and make me want him to be fired. It's the benching of Gelinas for making the same mistakes Zidlicky makes shift after shift, it's pairing Zidlicky and Gelinas together for no reason when they've shown they are a complete liability, it's Harrold getting more minutes than he should be being trusted over players who are simply better than him, it's putting Gionta out there in closing minutes of periods or during key moments, it's not giving Schneider a damn rest to start the season for no reason, and it's much more.
 

HellOnIce

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Cory also completely backed Pete last night too. It's not just Jagr.

Maybe because Pete is partly the reason why this team over achieved last year and can't keep this duct tape together team in the hunt now.

Pete's doing a really good job. Or at least a good a job as any could do given what we have here.
 

Emperoreddy

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I don't want a new coach to right the ship this year.

I just want a coach that will be totally fair and just let guys play.

Pete is coaching scared which is causing even more odd personnnol choices. Just let the guys play it out. Make them work and those who deserve in gets rewarded and those who don't punished.

Then we can reflect on what we have and don't have.
 

HellOnIce

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Agreed ^ The players need to take responsibility for their actions just as much as Pete and Lou. And I understand Pete doesn't have the best roster at his disposal.

But it's his personnel decisions that absolutely drive me mental and make me want him to be fired. It's the benching of Gelinas for making the same mistakes Zidlicky makes shift after shift, it's pairing Zidlicky and Gelinas together for no reason when they've shown they are a complete liability, it's Harrold getting more minutes than he should be being trusted over players who are simply better than him, it's putting Gionta out there in closing minutes of periods or during key moments, it's not giving Schneider a damn rest to start the season for no reason, and it's much more.

Zidlicky just doesn't make the same mistakes Gelinas does. He just doesn't. Generally we've seen 2 and 22 together when they've needed offense which is what it is. I don't blame Pete for wanting some veteran prescence in there to help with the ton of rookies who are in the lineup. It's almost unheard of how young our D is given our old and useless our forwards are.

Little Gio has played really well this year despite everything, so even I don't have a problem with that. It's not ideal, but we don't have anyone else.
 

HellOnIce

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I don't want a new coach to right the ship this year.

I just want a coach that will be totally fair and just let guys play.

Pete is coaching scared which is causing even more odd personnnol choices. Just let the guys play it out. Make them work and those who deserve in gets rewarded and those who don't punished.

Then we can reflect on what we have and don't have.

Coaching scared?!?!?!? What does this even mean. It's like you're pulling concepts out of thin air. He's coaching to win hockey games, we just can't seem to do that.
 

Devs4L

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Cheddabombs

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Zidlicky just doesn't make the same mistakes Gelinas does. He just doesn't. Generally we've seen 2 and 22 together when they've needed offense which is what it is. I don't blame Pete for wanting some veteran prescence in there to help with the ton of rookies who are in the lineup. It's almost unheard of how young our D is given our old and useless our forwards are.

Little Gio has played really well this year despite everything, so even I don't have a problem with that. It's not ideal, but we don't have anyone else.

Zidlicky is also a veteran, he shouldn't be making those mistakes. The leash on Gelinas is relatively extremely short to Zids and I don't understand why. I remember when we saw Gelinas and Zidlicky paired together for entire games for a decently long streak of maybe 4-5 games. I guess the team is so offensively deprived they always need offense, but it just didn't work. I'm fine with Gionta's play, it's using him in key situations when other options are available. There have been plenty of instances during the last minute of a period when Henrique or Zajac could have been on instead but Pete went with Gio.

In fact there: http://hockey.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?situation=ALL&period=ALL&chkTeamDef=checkbox&selTeamDef=N.J&games=2014-2015%3AR%3A99&Submit=Show+Line+Combinations&sent=go

Not surprising to see Greene-Severson have a much higher % than every other pair, given they've been together since day 1 and haven't been split up. But in the limited time where both Gelinas and Zidlicky were in they are the 3rd most frequent pairing.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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I mean what do you guys expect? when have you EVER heard a player say "yea man the coach sucks, we all did what we were supposed to but he didnt"
 
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