This is much different than Japan which only has players come over as professionals and have zero role in developing them as players.
All true but to put into context, if they were I don't even say world class players but at the very least very good players, they wouldn't choose to play for Japan. Point is they wouldn't make New Zealand first, second and even third team most probably so it doesn't exactly look like Japan "stole" anything from NZ, or Australia... or Fiji, Samoa, Tonga etc... They carved out a decent career in and for Japan, props to them.
As for Italy we used to have and still have quite a lot of players from different countries. In this case if I was Argentina I would be a bit upset about Dominguez, Parisse, Castrogiovanni and such because they could have been for sure first choices for them (can you imagine Castro and Parisse in the 2007 Argentina squad?), but other nationalities? Nope, they were leftovers who didn't even shine much for us which says something...
An italian whose grandfather emigrated to SA and I've been there myself too. Lots of problems for sure but stop with the SA's bashing, it's not all hell just like NZ isn't paradise on earth, you're just livid the kiwis got schooled today despite being widly favoured to win it all (hence why the other guy said ABs chocked).
If there's a promising Tongan or Fijian or Samoan player in the making he'll be unlikely to remain in Tonga or Fiji or Samoa, he'll get picked up by either the ABs or the Wallabies because they are closer, have their own polynesian/melanesian communities as you said and most importantly because they give money and possibilities to the rest of the family that those little nations can only dream of, you know it, everybody knows it; in this there's also an outside chance for England (see Tuilagi, Vunipola etc), it's nothing new really so don't act so defensive on that. South Africa have a different mentality and approach, if anything the biggest problems for the Springboks is the interference by politics on the selection of players...
As for the Tri Nations in the 90s I don't know much yeah, but I pleaseantly recall that the dominating ABs with that juggernaut named Jonah Lomu got stuffed by the Bokke in the 1995 WC and SAF wasn't exactly at its best prior to that WC.
Wait wait, I DO WATCH the Bokke games at the Rugby Championship (was quite pleased this year) but the level of play is different to the WC, plain and simple. Do you really think the ABs gave their best in this year's edition? Nah...
Boks had an outstanding team back in the mid 2000s, won the 2007 WC, yet NZ won more often than not, that's my point.
False, at least four players on the WC squad were born outside NZ (Frizell, Reece, Tu'ungafasi, Laulala. I don't even wanna check others which were not selected for this WC but still are in the ABs group) and then went to NZ so my point stands and you're either ignorant about your team or blatantly full of ****.
All Black Nepo Laulala playing for more than himself at Rugby World Cup
""I grew up in Samoa, so a big part of my heart is still with my country," Laulala said."
I am interested if they can parlay this into developing more of their own players being good rather than just complimentary players to the foreigners.
This WC have been huge for the popularity of the sport in Japan but I fear that after this things will slow down, as it normally happens after a big event. Japan doesn't shine when it comes to be "strongly built" (aside of sumo rikishis), besides baseball is king there. Soccer fields are way less prevalent while being still popular (which put things in perspective). In six times I've been there, from 2015 to May of this year (so when they were already preparing for the event), be it big cities or countryside, I've never seen a rugby field (or even a rugby ball by chance). Sure I hope that rugby will remain a thing for Japan; I'm a bit skeptical but it might be because I've seen rugby development pretty much stagnating here in Italy and I know how difficult it is to develop talents when the talent pool is extra thin...
Unlike Italy, Japan has a professional domestic league backed by owners of billion dollar corporations that long before this tournament has been able to lure top talents to it for the money, particularly late in their careers and that is only becoming more and more the case.
Barrett's new NZR contract literally has a clause to let him go play in Japan for a period if he wants to. Nobody of that magnitude is ever doing that to play in the Italian domestic league, nor will they ever.
I was talking with the other guy about the possibility of Japan developing some homegrown top talents, and while I hope it will be the case, rugby remain extremely niche in the country. Investments came mainly because of the incoming WC, the question is what will be the future considering that Japan's economy has some major challenges.
I know big players go there for the yens, I think Pollard and De Allende played in Japan too.
There was already big money in Japanese Rugby long before they got the World Cup.
Long before someone like Pollard was even a name, big names like Troy Flavell and Leon Macdonald had gone there to get paid late in their careers. This has been a thing for about 15 years now. But it just gets bigger and bigger and increasingly they started to get players going early in their career instead who knew they had no chance of playing for the Springboks or New Zealand instead of those players going to Europe like they would in the past.
Investments did not come mainly because of the World Cup lol. This competition, backed by some of the biggest businesses in the world, started before that was on the cards. This next wave of investment is further catapulting them and taking them to a new level. Look at who actually owns these teams though. There's no comparison to Italy in terms of domestic competition or money.
They've already developed some top players, now. They got to actually showcase themselves in this tournament because hardly anyone sees them.
Italy never had this position of having a domestic league with multiple billionaire owners with a competition that elite world players want to go to and have been for over a decade.
Lots of babblin, doesn't change the fact your claim was false. No language barrier and such, point stands: NZ have arguably the best pool talent in the world BUT they can and WILL pick promising players from the other oceanian nations whenever possible. Yesterday three ABs NOT born in NZ played vs England, two of them played 80 minutes and even more important they are for sure among the very best in the world in their role. That indeed makes a difference! I can only imagine what the score whould have been if only NZ-born players had actually played
Stop bringing Auckland, Wellington and demographics in the argument: I haven't been in NZ so I didn't and I'm not gonna talk about that, it was never my point and it doesn't make it any more legit the fact that ABs can pick the best crops from the islands... Besides I'm sure Samoa looks jussssst a tad different from NZ despite all the culture you share. After all Laulala said it better "I grew up in Samoa, so a big part of my heart is still with MY COUNTRY" Words of a TRUE All Black!
Keep spinning, you look more and more like a buffoon.
Yet again even without billionairse and a rich league Italy can easily (and has previously beaten) Japan. My point is how big of a rugby movement is present in the country, that is I think the primary way to develop some homegrown talents: Italy, especially here in the north east, has quite a notable rugby movement, but the translation into developing players successfully hasn't worked that well. Having big foreign names might help the league itself but the movement as a whole is another matter; Japan's rugby movement is niche to say the least, also in the physical aspect the japanese are bound to struggle too and that won't help either (good luck in finding an Etzebeth in Japan...).
I sure hope they will develop into a mainstay of the rugby nations but I wouldn't hold my breath on it, the average japanese kid has already a lot to deal with at school and baseball, for example, not only is widly more popular, easier to play since pretty much every school and every town have at least a diamond, but it is also a much less physical-demanding sport.
And yet now Japan is higher on the world rankings than Italy has ever been. Japan also beat Italy last year sooooo, apparently not "easily". They played two games, split them, Japan won one 34-17 meanwhile Italy won 25-22. Is that what easily winning looks like?
While Italy, at a national team level, has had the benefit of being in the six nations. Albeit as the whipping boys of the competition. Japan haven't had that privilege.
Italian Rugby as a whole has never been in the position to succeed that Japan is in.
Just because Italy failed doesn't mean Japan will. More success, more money, a better league. Yeah, we'll see if they turn into Italy. They've already surpassed Italy.
Considering the beating we have taken in the last (multiple) Six Nations, I consider a test match vs Japan a better matchup for us.
That comes with the problem of being the only notable rugby team in Asia (ask yourself why rugby isn't popular in Asia...). Rugby Championship have already their wipping boy in Argentina, I don't know if adding Japan would benefit anybody.
In 2007-2008 we had an outstanding first line in Castrogiovanni-Ghiraldini-Perugini, a younger Masi, a younger Parisse, the Bergamascos. Granted it was a test match I fondly remember they held their own in San Siro vs the All Blacks (I was there) while being beaten more decisively in Udine by the Springboks (which back then was truly the best team in the world, I was there too). We never really shined much in the Six Nations because after Dominguez and Troncon we lacked a fly half and a scrum half for many years... we wasted loads of points not scoring penalty kicks, but the structure of the team was damn solid. But we didn't have a generational change and that's why we're like this now.
Fair enough, I remain a bit skeptical, I think they reached their peak but the future is uncertain, we will see. I'd be extremely happy to see the Brave Blossom... blossoming into a strong rugby nation.
Argentina held their own against the All Blacks this year, they only lost by 4. But you're rubbishing them as the whipping boys while praising Italy for hanging with them years ago. Fact remains, Italy never have been this high in the world rankings, or made it to the world cup quarter final. Japan have (and were very unlucky not to 4 years ago also). They've exceeded anything Italy has done now. And again this ignores the position Japan is in to succeed off the field which Italy has never been anything close to.
Depending how you want to define strong Rugby nation they're already there. They're not in that NZ, SA, England, France, Aussie, Wales, Ireland level. But at this point they're up there with anyone else. We won't know their true peak unless they get more opportunities to try climb it.
As long as they can continue to pay ridiculous salaries in their domestic league and attract foreign players to make up their "national" team then they should be alright.
What will be interesting is to see if they can develop some actual Japanese players or not.
I mean, if we want to go down that rabbit hole, that isn't only a Japanese thing.
Praised them by talking about them hanging with the All Blacks.....
You made these rubbish claims about NZ luring people with passports for Rugby because you have no idea.[/quote/]
As a matter of fact I was right. At the same time you were exposed. If four are in the ABs how many actually receive scholarships but are not able to reach AB level. Again, it's nothing really new. The ABs without those three in the semis are strictly a worse team.
You talked about teams apparently disappearing in the Tri Nations that you admit you never watched.
In the 90s. The Springboks in the Trip/RC have never been up to the standards they showed in the WC, save for few editions, plain and simple.
[quote/]You talking about Argentina and how being in TRC hasn't helped them even though you say "they've probably gotten better" because you don't actually know because you don't watch.
I said those years were the best we've looked even if results didn't come. Much like what you're saying about Argentina.
I'd take Contepomi's 2007 Argentina any day of the week and twice on Sunday over this one, but that's only me I guess...
About Japan, you keep talking about money when I talk about reach to the average Japanese. Honestly I don't know if aside of the passionate rugby fans, anyone knew who were Pollard, Fourie or even Fukuoka, a Japanese player. Check yourself the average attendance of the Japan Rugby League, then get back to me. I might go one day to watch a game... Maybe. But when in Japan I'd rather go watch baseball.
Again, here's hoping they'll become a tier 1 nation, but I respectfully remain skeptical.