All Purpose Trade/Roster Building Thread XIV: Okay, but now what?

[moses malone 12]

What do you think they should’ve added that NJ couldn’t match?

my guess would be add a 1st round pick without conditions. Think Tanner Jeannot level of overpayment. Hard to evaluate Canes offer versus NJ's. No details revealed as what the six pieces were. Might have included conditions similar to what NJ offered.

anyway, its done. On to the playoffs.

 

[Svechhammer]

It may not have been that. There are two possibilities, IMO. One is that Meier wanted to go to New Jersey due to the Swiss players on their team and San Jose wanted to accomodate his request, and the second is that they preferred Shakir over Morrow. There's is clearly considerable debate about which side of Morrow vs. Shakir was the correct defenseman to take in a Meier package. San Jose either leaned towards Shakir or knew that Meier preferred to be dealt to New Jersey, and that's not Carolina's fault.

We never got the opportunity to counter the NJ offer. Our offer was out there for a week, SJ sat on it, and then rejected us, only to finalize the NJ deal a couple days later.

We were prepared to up ours to match or better. We were never given that chance.

 

[MinJaBen]

I didn’t realize anything had been public. Was this recent?

No, it was near the beginning of the season if I remember correctly.

 

[The Faulker 27]

I don't think you can replace Staal very easily. He's probably as important to team defense has Slavin. He routinely shuts down top lines and make it look easy. I'm not saying he deserves a huge pay day from us but I hope they at least throw him a bone.

Someone will throw a bunch of money at him, and he'll probably take it. It's not like he's done. Hes only 34, and is still playing great hockey. Unless he values where he's at over money. Not too many players in the latter part of their career walk away from a good paycheck.

 

[MadeUpName]

Paying Staal $5 million would eliminate Carolina's ability to bring in a real 2C. You can't pay Aho $10 million, Staal $5 million, Kotkaniemi $4.8 million and then another Center making $7-8 million.

Tough position to be in. Staal is Rod's favorite player.

 

[Stickpucker]

Sorry Staalsy you don't deserve more $$ than Burns or Slavin.

He's skating 16m a game and putting up 15 g 20 a clip. His point totals are probably worth about 3m. I could see us giving him an extra mil for his leadership and defense.

2x4m

 

[WreckingCrew]

Look, overall I love Staal, the problem has always only been that he's been overpaid by $1M+/yr on his contract the whole time. He SHOULD have been making closer to $4.5-5M, so his next contract pay-cut (as his performance declines) should be closer to $3.5-4M MAX.

 

[Deon Thompson]

Is his performance gonna decline significantly over the next two years though? The things hockey players lose as they age he never had to begin with. His best season was arguably last year at 33 (Dom Luc*^&%&, for what it's worth, had his market value at 5.6m last year). He's got a great work ethic which bodes well also. Injuries might start to be a factor, but that bug hasn't shown up yet. He's easily worth 4.5m IMHO, and I'd be happy with him at 5. It is still my belief that, despite the playoffs last year which should have made it glaringly obvious, Staal is underrated by this board, mostly because the things that he is bad at jump off the screen, whereas the things that he is one of the best in the league at don't so much.

 

[spockBokk]

Maybe they take it a yr at a time. Next yr $5M, even if an overpay, is not an issue. So maybe, he just starts taking a series of 1yr deals. I can’t see him going elsewhere

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Is his performance gonna decline significantly over the next two years though? The things hockey players lose as they age he never had to begin with. His best season was arguably last year at 33 (Dom Luc*^&%&, for what it's worth, had his market value at 5.6m last year). He's got a great work ethic which bodes well also. Injuries might start to be a factor, but that bug hasn't shown up yet. He's easily worth 4.5m IMHO, and I'd be happy with him at 5. It is still my belief that, despite the playoffs last year which should have made it glaringly obvious, Staal is underrated by this board, mostly because the things that he is bad at jump off the screen, whereas the things that he is one of the best in the league at don't so much.

To me, the Jordan Staal contract is going to be interesting. I do think that it's going to be one of two somewhat extreme outcomes. One is a relatively uneventful situation where the Canes and Staal agree to something around a 4x4 or a 3x5. The other is a team like Vancouver or Philadelphia wildly overpaying with one of the more universally-panned contracts ever given.

 

[MadeUpName]

Not for nothing that Jordan Staal made at least $10 million more than he was worth over the past 10 years of his deal. There may have been one or two seasons that he was worth $6 million.

Maybe it is pie-in-the-sky to hope that he factors that it. But if he wants pure market value after 10 years of overpayment then say "thank you for your time here" and don't let the door hit him on the way out IMO.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

If Jordan isn't playing with a team with a system like Carolina has, he is going to look worse defensively because his teammates will look worse defensively, and he won't score that much because he's never scored that much.

It's so funny. Folks were screaming for years that Jordan was seriously overpaid, and now that the team has matured, suddenly he's a key piece that we have to throw money at to keep?

KK is the 3C in waiting. He's 22 and he's cheap and he's signed forever. Overpaying Jordan and not going to get a real 2C would be crazypants.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

If Jordan isn't playing with a team with a system like Carolina has, he is going to look worse defensively because his teammates will look worse defensively, and he won't score that much because he's never scored that much.

It's so funny. Folks were screaming for years that Jordan was seriously overpaid, and now that the team has matured, suddenly he's a key piece that we have to throw money at to keep?

KK is the 3C in waiting. He's 22 and he's cheap and he's signed forever. Overpaying Jordan and not going to get a real 2C would be crazypants.

Unless the Canes think that KK will mature into a "real" 2C with time. Being that he's 22 and younger than Svechnikov by a few months, that's certainly a possibility. I do think that there are a lot of characteristics about Staal's game that make him ripe for an insane overpayment until he's age 42 (or something like that) by some crazy team, especially if the Canes win the Cup this year. If that's the case, and knowing the defensive skills that KK already has, I definitely could see Carolina going in a more overtly offensive direction for Staal's replacement, likely via trade.

 

[Deon Thompson]

Not for nothing that Jordan Staal made at least $10 million more than he was worth over the past 10 years of his deal. There may have been one or two seasons that he was worth $6 million.

Maybe it is pie-in-the-sky to hope that he factors that it. But if he wants pure market value after 10 years of overpayment then say "thank you for your time here" and don't let the door hit him on the way out IMO.

Refusing to pay market value because we're salty that a previous regime signed a bad contract is the sort of emotional decision-making that our front office doesn't go for, and I applaud them for it. That said, refusing to pay market value because we think we can get similar production in a cheaper way is absolutely a scenario I can see happening.

 

[Deon Thompson]

If Jordan isn't playing with a team with a system like Carolina has, he is going to look worse defensively because his teammates will look worse defensively, and he won't score that much because he's never scored that much.

It's so funny. Folks were screaming for years that Jordan was seriously overpaid, and now that the team has matured, suddenly he's a key piece that we have to throw money at to keep?

KK is the 3C in waiting. He's 22 and he's cheap and he's signed forever. Overpaying Jordan and not going to get a real 2C would be crazypants.

Por que no los dos? If the opportunity to get a very very good 2C instead of Staal is there this summer I agree with you though.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Jordan is good for this team as currently constructed, and if he's willing to take, say, a 2x4m deal to stay and there's no good 2C option out there, fine. But if he wants more money or longer term, it's not like he's the only defensively responsible 3C in the league.

And either way, if the team does manage to find a really good 2C, someone's got to go, and the 34yo UFA 3C is a perfectly reasonable candidate for that, no matter how friendly a deal he might take.

 

[Borsig]

Im thinking 4m. He should be our 4c next year. Let KK compete with someone for the 2C slot, with the loser falling to 3c. Staal then centers the best shutdown / 4th line in the league.

I'd like to see it at 3.5M and thats probably the borg's offer, and they may let him walk if it gets over 4

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Im thinking 4m. He should be our 4c next year. Let KK compete with someone for the 2C slot, with the loser falling to 3c. Staal then centers the best shutdown / 4th line in the league.

I'd like to see it at 3.5M and thats probably the borg's offer, and they may let him walk if it gets over 4

4m for a dedicated 4C is way too expensive.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

Believe Jordo will be eligible for performance bonuses next contract. Perhaps one tied to the number of goalie crests he hits each year.

 

[Borsig]

4m for a dedicated 4C is way too expensive.

a standard 4c. Yes. But to argue, If anything he's not a standard 4c. I mean if KK is our real 2c then he's the 3c

 

[Deon Thompson]

To back up my point here, I don't know if y'all (aside from @Boom Boom Apathy ), are analytically inclined, but the proof that Staal is a key piece is in the pudding. To whit:

Through 60 games, Staal has 52 non-adjusted CGA points. Given the quality of his linemates, I'm guessing that's one of the best marks on the team.

Furthermore, it is universally accepted around the league that Handsome Coach Rod Brind'Amour is one of the five to ten best coaches going. Jordan Staal is Rod's favorite player. Therefore, using simple math, we can extrapolate that Jordan Staal is one of the 10 greatest players of hockey.

 

[The Faulker 27]

I think the team will come in between 3-4Mx2 and he'll walk. As he should. Some team will overpay him. On one hand he'd be stupid not to take an overpayment at this point in his career. On the other hand he might value the stability of staying in Raleigh. It's not like he's not wealthy at this point.

 

[dogbazinho]

3-4 mil for 3-4 years "leadership"

 

[StormCast]

I very seriously doubt that Dundon gives a shit about any of this. When he bothers to speak, he speaks very plainly. In his eyes, they were being aggressive. The deal they wanted didn't get done. That's it. The end. A man like that doesn't have the time or the inclination to deal with *waves hands* all this. He wants to win. Period.

Probably not, but he should still be more selective so as to not put his GM in a tough position that he has to defend.

 

[htdoc]

Danault got $5m and term….. for less offense traditionally than Staal…. Given Brindy is here for life if he wants to be and how Brindy feels about Staal, they will pay more for him than they were willing to go for other UFAs from our team, both in terms of AAV they feel is the right value and term…

Staals have never taken home town discounts on their contracts that I can see across any of the brothers. Agents get to be the bad guys in terms of public face when they are trying to drive the market precedents for new contracts…but most NHL players are just as in tune with the money side of things and could easily tell the agent what to do in terms of taking less so there is money left over to build the best possible rest of the team…. I’m sure many agents really pressure players against doing that as it hurts their agent business if salaries don’t continue to escalate up and new precedents aren’t getting set for x type of player coming off their entry level deals or x type of players hitting UFA…. Great example is right shot dmen costing >$9m like happened a couple seasons ago with the Nurse, Hamilton, Jones mess… it’s their union bargained right to get max money for as long a term as they can get because who knows what will happen in the future. They need to do what they need to do and what is right for them…..some players likely go along with this whole agent strategy and that’s their right…. But if they know a team is going to spend to the cap every year and they want to stay in one spot and want to ice the best possible team they can that will fit under the cap, if the management will spend it wisely they should be looking at how they can make that happen when their contract comes up….but someone willing to do that and defy the system so to speak is extremely rare…We can agree to disagree on the character of Marchand, but he took less than market on his last deal and will do it again to try to get the best team around him…. Bergeron for sure took way less than market for another run this year…. There is a zero percent chance Aho takes less than market. He will get what he wants or he won’t be here. Staal will get what he wants or he won’t be here. Either that’s us paying him what he wants, or him signing a stupid money deal elsewhere or retiring…. But the chances of him talking to his agent and saying “you know what… I was overpaid for what I brought during the last 10 years of my contract. Make sure you take a reduced rate to stay with the Canes so we can sign the best players for next year” are less than zero Percent. Love our guys, love the team, hope we continue to win for many years to come so on those times I cough up the $700 for two tickets to a game (since I can’t afford to pay that for the whole season like I used to do and only paid $29*2*41 for the same seats that now cost $250+ each after evil overlord Ticketmaster fees and taxes plus $30 to park and outrageous concession / food prices etc… but there are many others that will pay the higher prices so turnover happens and that’s ok…. With a winning team in the regular season every year where fans have a high confidence of seeing a win every game at home, people will pay more…. until we hit that tipping point of price where enough don’t see the value (losing year will kill some, fully tapping out corporate sponsorship will kill some, and prices just too crazy high for people for a regular season Tuesday night game in November will do the rest) the cap will keep going up partly due to the ever increasing gate receipts …. Bringing my tangent rambling mess back to the original point. Dundon has shown for years now that he will spend to the cap each year to try to ice a winner. He sees that if we win in the regular season people will come for 41 home dates and help his revenue. Players know we will spend to the cap. If the players are really interested in winning here in Carolina, they can take a little less to leave enough room to spend more on a complete team since we know the team will spend it somewhere…. They may not like having to sacrifice due to the salary cap pitting them against each other for their slice of the pie. It’s why agents hate the hard cap so much and want nba luxury tax model or no cap at all to keep spiraling things out of control like baseball because they know the system benefits the agent getting more money because most teams aren’t like ours doing it different and GMs and coaches have a shelf life and they will do whatever they can to win now because they won’t be around to have to clean up the mess a bad contract signing creates…. Staal is not a dumb guy. He knows we would have more money to sign more top 6 elite players to help build a more talented team that has a slightly higher percentage of winning if he takes less for his 3c or 4c role…. He knows a typical average 3c salary is not $5m+ in typical team construction because most teams spend a large percentage of their cap on the stars so there isn’t enough money left to pay $5m for a bunch of third and 4th line players.. he can’t make $5+ on an Edmonton team or Toronto team that has 50% of the cap spent on just 5 players…. If enough players take a home team discount and we structure our team right, we can upgrade our top 6 and we could still sign Ghost to a $4m+ per year deal for the next 2 years to play on our 3rd pair as a luxury and be a better overall team…. If we can’t keep the right prices on players in each slot then there isn’t enough money to go around and we are back to having to hope we guess right and have both our 3rd pair dmen make $750k like deHaan and Chatfield….

as an aside we have been so lucky to have gotten great value from deHaan and Chatfield for league minimum…. It’s great that Ghost can help our PP down the stretch and for the playoffs this year…. but it’s also equally great that if and when we have someone that needs a game to rest or we have an issue with one of the dmen in our lineup, we now have depth and the security in knowing that we have someone like deHaan ready to go that knows our system so well on a league min deal that can just jump in there again and help us without it hurting our team. Thank you to deHaan for the season he has had so far for a pittance of a deal. So glad he was able to get healthy enough before the start of this season to come back here and play for us and allow us to construct the team we have so far this year and perform as well as they have…. We are even better results wise this year than last year and deHaan playing steady without taking so many stupid penalties like Cole did last year is a big reason for it..


anyways, I think ther is zero chance Staal takes a big hometown discount to stay and allow us to ice an even better team than the rest of the league that doesn’t have those home team gifts or manages the cal anywhere near as efficient as we do…. I would love to be wrong and he signs for a couple years at $3m per and we love Staal even more for doing that…. I just don’t see it…


enough of a stream of consciousness word vomit dump for everyone this afternoon?


glad Ghost has had great first couple games. Hope that he continues to help the PP even as his numbers return to normal and he sees tougher competition…. If we can find the right balance of usage this could be such a great trade for us as he gets comfortable and learns our systems. Hope JP has just as much positive impact when he gets in the lineup here shortly…. Would love us to get some wins in contract talks this offseason as well so we can ice the best possible team next year as well. It’s such a happy feeling after another win instead of the alternative. I want that happy feeling 82 times every regular season and would love to have that happy feeling at least 16 times in the playoffs this year and next year and every year after that