All purpose trade / roster building thread part 4: We like our Jerks

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I'd be down if he's taking a big pay cut. He made $7.5 million this year- would he want to play anywhere for 4ish? Someone will probably throw more at him

I really don’t think so. If he wants to keep playing it’ll be $2m or less IMO.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I think I'd pass on the corpse of Jason Spezza.

 

[My Special Purpose]

He was outscored by Lucas Wallmark this year.

If we're looking for a 27pt center to "bridge" us to Necas and Svech, why not just use Wallmark?

Because it's not just about points. It's about faceoffs, it's about the power play, it's about being right-handed, and it's about not averaging 24 years of age. I assume there are reasons for his two sub-30 points seasons, and they're not *all* related to play (i.e. usage). But like I said, I can be talked out of this fairly easily.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Not that he couldn't come here and perform better than he has, but Dallas was anemic this year offensively. Probably says something about him if usage is an issue when they were desperate for offense. Again, not a guarantee, but I'd be more than wary of it. I don't want to throw a player that seems like he may not have it anymore out there just to raise our average age.

 

[Chrispy]

Because it's not just about points. It's about faceoffs, it's about the power play, it's about being right-handed, and it's about not averaging 24 years of age. I assume there are reasons for his two sub-30 points seasons, and they're not *all* related to play (i.e. usage). But like I said, I can be talked out of this fairly easily.

I would be more interested in bringing in a veteran presence if Williams doesn't return next year, or if Williams's brain doesn't return tonight.

If the goal is veteran PP production, I'd target Eberle first, I'd accept yet another lefty and go after Zuccarello next. Spezza's not at the bottom of the list (Vanek, Simmonds) but there are definitely others I'd put first.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I think I'd pass on the corpse of Jason Spezza.

This was the exact phrasing I was thinking of lol.

I guess my question would be - would we get 8 goals and 19 assists (2 PP goals and 12 PP points) out of Martin Necas in a full season next year? I think yes to everything except the PP points total.

For context, Spezza had 12 PP points last year which would’ve been 5th on the Canes (Aho, Teravainen, Williams, Ferland). Wallmark had 7, Faulk had 10. Too lazy to look up the per60 numbers, but I’m sure Spezza is at least more efficient than a few of the guys above.

He did have Wallmark beat for faceoffs (59% to 51%).

I frankly just don’t see the need, and doubt it would fix much.

 

[Canes]

I think if we're bringing in a player to help the PP, it has to be a d-man (or a forward) who can QB the PP. We have decent enough forwards and a RH guy like Necas should eventually be an option. The main problem with the PP is the horrendous special teams coaching. Several teams have similar if not worse depth at forward and aren't nearly as bad as we are on the PP. Either we need a new special teams coach or the one we have now has to learn how to ice a competent PP quickly starting next season.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

I think the problem with the PP is systems related, not because of not having the right guys.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Not that he couldn't come here and perform better than he has, but Dallas was anemic this year offensively. Probably says something about him if usage is an issue when they were desperate for offense. Again, not a guarantee, but I'd be more than wary of it. I don't want to throw a player that seems like he may not have it anymore out there just to raise our average age.

I'd be leery of using another team's usage of a player as a determining factor in anything. From the outside, looking at Justin Faulk's usage, you'd think he was the second coming of Bobby Orr.

This was the exact phrasing I was thinking of lol.

I guess my question would be - would we get 8 goals and 19 assists (2 PP goals and 12 PP points) out of Martin Necas in a full season next year? I think yes to everything except the PP points total.

For context, Spezza had 12 PP points last year which would’ve been 5th on the Canes (Aho, Teravainen, Williams, Ferland). Wallmark had 7, Faulk had 10. Too lazy to look up the per60 numbers, but I’m sure Spezza is at least more efficient than a few of the guys above.

He did have Wallmark beat for faceoffs (59% to 51%).

I frankly just don’t see the need, and doubt it would fix much.

No, you're right. It's all about points. We should def trade Svechnikov for Phillip Danault because Danault had more points. Here's some irrelevant numbers to back me up on this.

 

[GoldiFox]

Phil Kessel - #6 in the league for PP P/60 (8.01). #1 on Pittsburgh in PP P/60. #3 in the league for P/60 relative to top-5 teammates PP production (+1.90). Owed an average of $5.36 million per year for the last 3 years of his deal. Right handed scorer. On everyone's "likely to be traded" list. Primary argument against being divisional.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I think if we're bringing in a player to help the PP, it has to be a d-man (or a forward) who can QB the PP. We have decent enough forwards and a RH guy like Necas should eventually be an option. The main problem with the PP is the horrendous special teams coaching. Several teams have similar if not worse depth at forward and aren't nearly as bad as we are on the PP. Either we need a new special teams coach or the one we have now has to learn how to ice a competent PP quickly starting next season.

I’m definitely with you here. While this team isn’t a finished product by any mean with regard to roster construction, the personnel is there to have a better PP than we do. Aho and TT are more than capable of being the guys on a league average PP. There’s just something rotten about the execution. Maybe we do end up requiring new personnel just as a catalyst for a shakeup, but personnel is not the sole reason for this level of ineptitude. The talent is there to at least be better than this.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Phil Kessel - #6 in the league for PP P/60 (8.01). #1 on Pittsburgh in PP P/60. #3 in the league for P/60 relative to top-5 teammates PP production (+1.90). Owed an average of $5.36 million per year for the last 3 years of his deal. Right handed scorer. On everyone's "likely to be traded" list. Primary argument against being divisional.

Anybody think Kessel and Brind'Amour can co-exist on the same team?

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

No, you're right. It's all about points. We should def trade Svechnikov for Phillip Danault because Danault had more points. Here's some irrelevant numbers to back me up on this.

Seriously? What an insane comparison. His powerplay numbers aren’t indicative of his ability to help our powerplay? And then you bring up a Danault vs Svechnikov comparison? If you’re bringing up that comparison, are you implying that you believe Spezza has more potential and years ahead of him than Wallmark or Necas?

If we’re saying it’s “not all about points”, which I agree with, here are some numbers from Dom at The Athletic implying that Wallmark was a more effective overall player than Spezza this year. Assuming the 23 year old gets a little better and the 35 year old gets a little worse, I don’t think my position is insane, no? Certainly not “well I guess if you don’t think Spezza does much to move the needle for the Canes I guess you want to trade Svechnikov for Danault buh buh buh” level crazy...

 

[My Special Purpose]

I guess my question would be - would we get 8 goals and 19 assists (2 PP goals and 12 PP points) out of Martin Necas in a full season next year? I think yes to everything except the PP points total.

I'm mostly referring to stuff like this, which leads me to believe that no, you do not agree that it's not all about points. You seem to see everything in terms of points and I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. It makes sense that our ideas on team building would not jive.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I’ll also go on record as saying I wouldn’t be especially offended if someone told me that age and context aside, Danault was a more effective NHL player than Svechnikov last year.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I'm mostly referring to stuff like this, which leads me to believe that no, you do not agree that it's not all about points. You seem to see everything in terms of points and I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. It makes sense that our ideas on team building would not jive.

This is insane cherrypicking of one part of one post, no? Points are an easy yet very incomplete way to see how a player produces offensively. Is the expectation that I can’t disagree that a player would help us without an in depth player analysis?

Spezza isn’t a very good player anymore, and there’s a lot that suggests that, points being one piece. But the notion that I’m going to be accused of “seeing everything in terms of points” because of a cherrypicked part of one post is just bad arguing. It’s like if I took the part of your post that said “it’s about faceoffs” and accused you of thinking that the most important thing is for everyone on the team to be above 50% on faceoffs, then threw out some moody stuff like “yeah, I guess it makes sense that we wouldn’t agree on roster construction.” The funny part is we’ve agreed on virtually every roster move since Waddell took over.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Because it's not about points. It's about faceoffs, it's about being right-handed, and it's about not averaging 24 years of age.

See, it’s stuff like this that makes me think we’ll never agree on roster construction. You think in terms of being elderly and right handed, and I don’t really see how that’s relevant. I just don’t think that signing Jason Spezza and Bobby Holik does much to move the needle next year.

 

[My Special Purpose]

See, it’s stuff like this that makes me think we’ll never agree on roster construction. You think in terms of being elderly and right handed, and I don’t really see how that’s relevant. I just don’t think that signing Jason Spezza and Bobby Holik does much to move the needle next year.

Whoa ... nobody said anything about Bobby Holik. Where do I sign up?

As for Spezza, everybody was kinda in agreement that Jeff Carter would be a nice addition as a third-line scoring center and to boost the power play, but he was no better than Spezza last season and comes with a *much* larger price tag. And I do think we're too young. And if we break camp with Necas, Nedeljkovic and Bean next fall, we'll be even younger. I think adding some more veteran experience could lighten the load on Williams a bit and help us through down times.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Hmm, I'm right handed and will be 34 when next season starts. Perhaps I'm qualified.

 

[Chrispy]

Whoa ... nobody said anything about Bobby Holik. Where do I sign up?

As for Spezza, everybody was kinda in agreement that Jeff Carter would be a nice addition as a third-line scoring center and to boost the power play, but he was no better than Spezza last season and comes with a *much* larger price tag. And I do think we're too young. And if we break camp with Necas, Nedeljkovic and Bean next fall, we'll be even younger. I think adding some more veteran experience could lighten the load on Williams a bit and help us through down times.

1) That was wondering if LA might be trying a cap dump with Carter mid-season. I doubt that gets revisited with Carter's season and better UFA targets.

2) I think there is agreement a veteran UFA signing who could help on the PP makes sense. Whether Spezza is the right target is the next question, and as I said above I think there are better players to target first.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I was frequently on the record for not wanting Carter. Because he's not that good anymore. It's not enough to be old and right handed and good years ago. And Spezza and Carter aren't the guys that jump to my mind for veteran leadership either (not to say they're bad necessarily either).

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Whoa ... nobody said anything about Bobby Holik. Where do I sign up?

As for Spezza, everybody was kinda in agreement that Jeff Carter would be a nice addition as a third-line scoring center and to boost the power play, but he was no better than Spezza last season and comes with a *much* larger price tag. And I do think we're too young. And if we break camp with Necas, Nedeljkovic and Bean next fall, we'll be even younger. I think adding some more veteran experience could lighten the load on Williams a bit and help us through down times.

That’s fair, and it’d be low risk as the contract would be cheap. He’s a vet, could be good in the room, etc. I’m not offended by the idea, just tough to see him making a major difference. He could bounce back, but at 35 he could also decline even further. On a 1-year deal I’m fine with it as long as he’s not our major move. 4C with PP time.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I was frequently on the record for not wanting Carter. Because he's not that good anymore. It's not enough to be old and right handed and good years ago. And Spezza and Carter aren't the guys that jump to my mind for veteran leadership either (not to say they're bad necessarily either).

I don’t put them in the same category. Carter I agree with you. Spezza is a former captain and I feel like is better when it comes to vet leadership. This is of course all based on personal opinion to some extent.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I wouldn't exactly kick and scream either if he came at a reasonable term and rate. But I have to imagine they can find guys that would be better fits that don't seem to be heading in the wrong direction at the end of their careers.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I don’t put them in the same category. Carter I agree with you. Spezza is a former captain and I feel like is better when it comes to vet leadership. This is of course all based on personal opinion to some extent.

Agreed, Carter doesn't make me think leadership at all. I don't have any negative feelings towards Spezza's leadership, but he doesn't jump to my mind for an amazing vet leader. Being a captain doesn't always mean much, and it doesn't to me for him.