Indy: All-Purpose Non-WWE Discussion Thread -- Part 2 [NJPW G1 Special in San Francisco July 7]

[GKJ]

Have you ever played a non-stop sport like Rugby or even midfield in soccer? You don't go from falling running over to doing crazy flips. You don't go from running a 5000m run to sprinting a 100m run. It just doesn't make sense.

I also know there's less rest holds in NJPW. I've watched Japanese wrestling for a long time. The V-Trigger thing is a joke, in reality he should do them a lot (and Reigns should do the Superman Punch a lot). You should do your perfected moves more in reality.

My problem started with the Phoenix Splash and how fast he bounced back. Then I was already out of the immersion and picked apart every little thing.

Your opinion - it was one of the best.
My opinion - it was very good. Great even. But not perfect.

And I never complained about Nak. I liked his matches against Ziggler and Styles.

I saw Daniel & Henrik Sedin doing interviews on exercise bikes directly after playing a 4OT playoff game. However, this it is not sports. It's a performance. It's scripted. Does anybody get jumped before a match in any other sport and have to play their game in a suit for half of the match like Naito did?

The Wrestlemania match with Styles was fine, that didn't get reactions because the crowd decided they weren't going to react until they felt like it was a 5-star match and didn't think it would only go 20 minutes. The same thing happened in Newark when they were having a better match. They turned Nakamura heel because he was getting less over given he was not doing incredible matches, such as the one he had with Ziggler.

And how is doing that Phoenix Splash any different than Ciampa doing his finish to Gargano off the top rope 34 minutes into their match after they've been hitting each other with weapons and doing powerbombs from the apron to the exposed floor? And it wasn't even the finish.

 

[Natey]

I saw Daniel & Henrik Sedin doing interviews on exercise bikes directly after playing a 4OT playoff game. However, this it is not sports. It's a performance. It's scripted. Does anybody get jumped before a match in any other sport and have to play their game in a suit for half of the match like Naito did?

The Wrestlemania match with Styles was fine, that didn't get reactions because the crowd decided they weren't going to react until they felt like it was a 5-star match and didn't think it would only go 20 minutes. The same thing happened in Newark when they were having a better match. They turned Nakamura heel because he was getting less over given he was not doing incredible matches, such as the one he had with Ziggler.

And how is doing that Phoenix Splash any different than Ciampa doing his finish to Gargano off the top rope 34 minutes into their match after they've been hitting each other with weapons and doing powerbombs from the apron to the exposed floor? And it wasn't even the finish.

I actually meant Almas/Gargano. I wasn't quite as big on the Ciampa match. That's my mistake. Must have just written it because the feud is current.

An exercise bike is not a Phoenix Splash. And they also probably didn't fall over. And they also had a break between every shift.

Anyway, my opinion has been said. I'm excited to see where things go from here.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Wouldn’t the exercise bike be more physically demanding than a Phoenix splash in a hard, long match anyways? Lol, one is a move/flip out of desperation to pull out all the stops while running on adrenaline, the other is an exercise bike long after any adrenaline would have worn off and after playing essentially 2 and 1/3 hockey games in a single night of action.

I dunno, we’ve seen so many big moves in long matches out of desperation and off pure adrenaline.

 

[Natey]

Wouldn’t the exercise bike be more physically demanding than a Phoenix splash in a hard, long match anyways? Lol, one is a move/flip out of desperation to pull out all the stops while running on adrenaline, the other is an exercise bike long after any adrenaline would have worn off and after playing essentially 2 and 1/3 hockey games in a single night of action.

I dunno, we’ve seen so many big moves in long matches out of desperation and off pure adrenaline.

I lied. I'm back.

It wasn't just the move. It was the bouncing back so quickly. And the big factor: he fell over into the ropes from exhaustion before any of that happened.

I was always more tired after a rugby game than hockey.

Surprised you watched it after a 5 hour show lol

 

[GKJ]

I did think the Almas match was better, there was a lot more pace to it and went almost as long. But I'm also biased because I was in the building. I thought the reactions were better too.

 

[sabremike]

The thing that kills me about people going overboard about realism in pro wrestling is that everyone knows what a real fight looks like thanks to MMA and it looks nothing like pro wrestling. Wrestling works within it's own system of logic, if you want it to look like a shoot than matches have to end after the first big move and last 3 minutes. I mean, do real fight have finishing moves (technically submission moves I suppose, but I'm talking moves designed to knock a guy out like a DDT or something)?

 

[Shoalzie]

New Japan looks closer to shoot fighting just because of the speed and the more realistic contact and dangerous moves. Obviously, they book Kenny's finisher as basically unbeatable but his move probably isn't any rougher than someone else's closer. Hell, Okada basically held a title for two years with a damn lariat as his finisher. Unfortunately, a guy like Shibata worked so stiff it ended his career and I can only imagine what he'd be doing now in the current NJPW. When a guy like Suzuki who is a shoot fighter and he brings his skill and intensity...he seems like a real tough dude in the ring.

I love the long-term storytelling and the sense of actual relationships wrestlers and factions and how it carries over from year to year. The Bullet Club/Elite/Gold Lovers storyline has been well told and it's cool seeing a payoff. Of course, you have to wonder...what happens with Ibushi and how does Cody play into all this and what's really the status of the collective Bullet Club? I've been wondering for a while...will anyone ever turn on Naito in LIJ? He seems to be vulnerable right now after Jericho beat his ass. EVIL was the only guy to come to his aid after the match.

I think the G1 this year will be incredible and that's just because of all the stories being built up. I think the Money in the Bank men's match will be good but there's not a lot of long-term stories being told. There's just interesting characters and they're going to clash in a one-off gimmick match. Just imagine the cool stuff a guy like Joe could do in Japan with his promo skills and watch him fight closer to a shoot-style?

 

[Natey]

The thing that kills me about people going overboard about realism in pro wrestling is that everyone knows what a real fight looks like thanks to MMA and it looks nothing like pro wrestling. Wrestling works within it's own system of logic, if you want it to look like a shoot than matches have to end after the first big move and last 3 minutes. I mean, do real fight have finishing moves (technically submission moves I suppose, but I'm talking moves designed to knock a guy out like a DDT or something)?

Okay, that's fine to think like that. But I better not see anyone that is okay with that argue about the ridiculous of a storyline or anything. Because that's not real life either...

Why do they even sell at all if it really means nothing? Why do we judge on selling at all?

Wrestling is art. It's not like I rated it *. I still gave it ****1/4.

 

[Natey]

So

New Japan looks closer to shoot fighting just because of the speed and the more realistic contact and dangerous moves. Obviously, they book Kenny's finisher as basically unbeatable but his move probably isn't any rougher than someone else's closer. Hell, Okada basically held a title for two years with a damn lariat as his finisher. Unfortunately, a guy like Shibata worked so stiff it ended his career and I can only imagine what he'd be doing now in the current NJPW. When a guy like Suzuki who is a shoot fighter and he brings his skill and intensity...he seems like a real tough dude in the ring.

I love the long-term storytelling and the sense of actual relationships wrestlers and factions and how it carries over from year to year. The Bullet Club/Elite/Gold Lovers storyline has been well told and it's cool seeing a payoff. Of course, you have to wonder...what happens with Ibushi and how does Cody play into all this and what's really the status of the collective Bullet Club? I've been wondering for a while...will anyone ever turn on Naito in LIJ? He seems to be vulnerable right now after Jericho beat his ass. EVIL was the only guy to come to his aid after the match.

I think the G1 this year will be incredible and that's just because of all the stories being built up. I think the Money in the Bank men's match will be good but there's not a lot of long-term stories being told. There's just interesting characters and they're going to clash in a one-off gimmick match. Just imagine the cool stuff a guy like Joe could do in Japan with his promo skills and watch him fight closer to a shoot-style?

So many ways to go. So many options. NJPW doesn't have a lot of poor wrestlers except dog collar man.

 

[JackSlater]

Okay, that's fine to think like that. But I better not see anyone that is okay with that argue about the ridiculous of a storyline or anything. Because that's not real life either...

Why do they even sell at all if it really means nothing? Why do we judge on selling at all?

Wrestling is art. It's not like I rated it *. I still gave it ****1/4.

That is it. I don't see how anyone can argue against your point unless they are just saying that selling should be disregarded in wrestling. If you are going to sell extreme exhaustion, as in literally falling down from exhaustion, then don't effortlessly perform moves later when it is convenient. It's pretty simple. If you need to effortlessly pull off big moves later at a fast pace, then don't sell exhaustion. It's like a guy selling a badly injured leg and then at the end of the match going for a sprint (or several) to deliver an explosive finisher.

 

[sabremike]

Okay, that's fine to think like that. But I better not see anyone that is okay with that argue about the ridiculous of a storyline or anything. Because that's not real life either...

Why do they even sell at all if it really means nothing? Why do we judge on selling at all?

Wrestling is art. It's like I rated it *. I still gave it ****1/4.

Again wrestling has it's own inherent logic. For example, you always see people go crazy backstage and there are no repercussions. In real life we saw what happened when Connor McGregor actually did that: he was arrested and charged with a criminal offense. But in the wrestling universe it's acceptable. However if you do something completely ridiculous that doesn't fit into pro wrestling logic (like pretty much everything Vince Russo ever did) it's very bad.

 

[sabremike]

That is it. I don't see how anyone can argue against your point unless they are just saying that selling should be disregarded in wrestling. If you are going to sell extreme exhaustion, as in literally falling down from exhaustion, then don't effortlessly perform moves later when it is convenient. It's pretty simple. If you need to effortlessly pull off big moves later at a fast pace, then don't sell exhaustion. It's like a guy selling a badly injured leg and then at the end of the match going for a sprint (or several) to deliver an explosive finisher.

The whole "fighting spirit" thing that is a part of New Japan internal logic is the answer to that.

 

[JackSlater]

The whole "fighting spirit" thing that is a part of New Japan internal logic is the answer to that.

Bad selling because others sell badly (though generally not exhaustion as in this case) doesn't really work for me. It's a small blemish on what was a high end match. Okada and Omega have done better in terms of being consistent late in matches before.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

I lied. I'm back.

It wasn't just the move. It was the bouncing back so quickly. And the big factor: he fell over into the ropes from exhaustion before any of that happened.

I was always more tired after a rugby game than hockey.

Surprised you watched it after a 5 hour show lol

I didn’t watch the whole thing. I’ve only watched that one particular match up to now.

 

[Natey]

The whole "fighting spirit" thing that is a part of New Japan internal logic is the answer to that.

Why do some people chirp Ospreay for not selling? Or The Young Bucks? You can't just pick and choose.

Fighting spirit is fine. But not many matches have people literally falling over from exhaustion.

Like I said, you can say Ibushi fired him up for the Phoenix Splash. But he missed. Why is he getting up and countering so quickly? And why not just do a body splash or a frog splash? Why did it need to be so much more?

 

[GKJ]

Why do some people chirp Ospreay for not selling? Or The Young Bucks? You can't just pick and choose.

Fighting spirit is fine. But not many matches have people literally falling over from exhaustion.

Like I said, you can say Ibushi fired him up for the Phoenix Splash. But he missed. Why is he getting up and countering so quickly? And why not just do a body splash or a frog splash? Why did it need to be so much more?

Because that was Ibushi’s move is why it wasn’t something else

 

[Natey]

Because that was Ibushi’s move is why it wasn’t something else

Yes, I know that. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous (to me).

 

[Disclose]

per njpw:
G1 Special in San Francisco

Omega vs Cody,
Young Bucks vs EVIL & SANADA,
Okada & Ospreay vs Naito & BUSHI,
Jay white vs Juice

 

[Kimi]

per njpw:
G1 Special in San Francisco

Omega vs Cody,
Young Bucks vs EVIL & SANADA,
Okada & Ospreay vs Naito & BUSHI,
Jay white vs Juice

zzz. Terrible card. Notable lack of:

 

[Emperoreddy]

I will say Jericho’s last WWE run combined with this New Japan run is making a strong case he really is the greatest ever in my mind.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

I will say Jericho’s last WWE run combined with this New Japan run is making a strong case he really is the greatest ever in my mind.

I don’t think there’s any doubt anymore imo. He’s 48 and is still reinventing himself.

Flair was the same forever. HBK never reinvented himself. Jericho has reinvented himself so many times and stayed at a high level for so long that there shouldn’t even be a question about it anymore imho

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Omega-Okada was just incredible, wow! Better than the first 3.

Really enjoyed Osprey-Hiromu too.

And Jericho continues to re-invent himself. GOAT.

 

[Disclose]

Adam Cole vs Walter at evolve 107
if Walter wins the NA title, he keeps it and gets a nxt contract

 

[Disclose]

Lucha Underground new season tonight with Aztec Warfare 4.

 

[GKJ]

Meltzer on Dominion:

Kanemaru/Desperado vs. Roppongi 3k ***1/4

Juice/Finlay vs. Jay White/Yoshi-Hashi **1/4

Suzuki/Sabre vs. Ishii/Yano ***3/4

Goto vs. Taichi vs. Elgin ***1/2

Young Bucks vs. Evil/Sanada ****1/2

Bullet Club vs. Tana/Mysterio/Liger ***1/2

Takahashi vs. Ospreay ****3/4

Jericho vs. Naito ****1/2

Omega vs. Okada 2 out of 3 falls, no time limit *******


(that’s 7 Stars)