Alexis Lafreniere disappointing season start? PART 2

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I think Smith & Severson are very impressive at the top for the Devils (Severson is only 3.5 years older than Fox), but the bigger difference is the next tier where the Rangers have guys like Lindgren and Lundqvist, and the Devils will need to find more help on defense unless guys like Walsh and Okhotyuk exceed expectations. I like those guys, but they still need work.

Those guys are frankly nowhere near as good as Adam Fox, unfortunately.

 

[1909]

Alexis Lafrenière dominated juniors for 2 years.

Alexis Lafrenière already plays a pro-game (ie, he is not a liability out there and makes good decisions with and without the puck). He does not need to adapt his game to the NHL style, he needs to adapt to the NHL speed.

Alexis Lafrenière did not play hockey for 10 months prior to this season.

Sending him down to juniors serves absolutely no purpose for the player he is and the things he needs to work on. Guys are usually sent to the minors to correct bad habits. Lafrenière does not have bad habits. He just need to master the level. Takes time... WHEN YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED IN SO LONG! If the AHL was an option, you could send him there so he can build some confidence. Considering that the Q is the only option, you let him play out of his funk.

If anything, Lafrenière and his representatives were stupid to choose to skip the start of the Q season and the WJC. That would have helped him start the year much better.

You mean "Rangers management", right ?

 

[Scandale du Jour]

You mean "Rangers management", right ?

If it were their decision, then, my bad, and yeah.

 

[Blackjack]

Those guys are frankly nowhere near as good as Adam Fox, unfortunately.

Smith, sure, he's 20 and he's been impressive but certainly not at Fox's level yet. I'm not sure I would agree on Severson.

 

[Favin]

Those guys are frankly nowhere near as good as Adam Fox, unfortunately.

I'm taking Fox among the three, but Severson vs Fox right now is a debate worth having.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

How many centers are included in these "main pieces"?

Thats a fair question. You touched on probably the only big question with the Rangers roster going forward.

I would include Zibanejad for now. Its highly suspected that he's suffering from COVID after-effects. He may never rebound from this illness. We don't have data on how people recover from this long-term. However, he was absolutely a 1C for more than just last year. The people claiming he was some fluke because of a high SH% and now he's playing at the level you'd expect forget his prior season and that he's clearly not physically right.

If he doesn't rebound, sure, it's an issue. However, I think taking him out of the main pieces category because of what we've seen for 15 games is a little over-reactionary. Healthy Zibanejad is absolutely a main piece, and is a 27 year old coming off two seasons in a row as a 1C, one of which he was the best goal-scorer in the league. That would absolutely be a mean piece for a team the next 5+ years.

The rankings are also based on on "Ownership & Market", "Management & Coaching" and "Salary Cap" with the Devils getting dinged for their market as well as management & coaching (both of which were new).

Why shouldn't those things count? Like it or not, they factor in.

Rangers had a higher rating for Young Core (U25) and Prospects, though at the time of this article Tony DeAngelo was a significant part of that U25 core for the Rangers considering the season he just had. The hype train was also through the roof for Lafreniere, while Hughes was coming off a disappointing rookie season and many of the younger players struggled under the Hynes dumpster fire of a season. The amount of improvement in Huhges, continued strong play of Blackwood, emergence of Ty Smith and the amount of 1st/2nd year players integrated into the Devils lineup this season that are playing well (including McLeod, Bastian, Sharangovich, Kuokannen, etc.) certainly have NJ trending in a positive direction. It's close between the two franchises, but the lack of centers for the Rangers is a huge hole.

Considering this was a futures ranking and it was widely suspected that DeAngelo would be replaced next season by Nils Lundkvist, and at best he'd be the 6th or 7th most valuable U25 piece, so I'm skeptical that has much influence.

As to Hughes/Lafreniere Hughes stock at the time, you have a point there. However, it's not like Hughes didn't go through this a year ago and now he's doing well. Lafreniere will be a very good NHL'er. I doubt the ranking made that much distinction between the two.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I'm taking Fox among the three, but Severson vs Fox right now is a debate worth having.

Smith, sure, he's 20 and he's been impressive but certainly not at Fox's level yet. I'm not sure I would agree on Severson.

Severson has had a nice bounce back start to this season.

He is nowhere close to as good as Fox, coming from a guy who has watched both guys play a ton.

 

[Favin]

The amount of improvement in Huhges, continued strong play of Blackwood, emergence of Ty Smith and the amount of 1st/2nd year players integrated into the Devils lineup this season that are playing well (including McLeod, Bastian, Sharangovich, Kuokannen, etc.) certainly have NJ trending in a positive direction. It's close between the two franchises, but the lack of centers for the Rangers is a huge hole.

The center position is a big hole that needs an Eichel-sized piece to catch up. But until some of these KHL defensemen that the Devils seems to be stockpiling pan out, it is advantage Rangers on blue line.

In the Devils games I have watched, other than Hughes and Smith who look fantastic, the guy that impresses me the most has been Sharanagovich, who looks like he could be #3 in the (Hughes/Hischier-led) center depth chart. A lot of skill, and a burner, but the hockey smarts sets him apart from guys like Zacha and McLeod. He is a total keeper.

 

[sufferer]

Watch him take off with Panarin out of the picture. Hockey is weird like that sometimes.

 

[Nicomo Cosca]

I'm taking Fox among the three, but Severson vs Fox right now is a debate worth having.

Yep. Severson is playing like a legit top pair guy this season.

 

[HBK27]

Thats a fair question. You touched on probably the only big question with the Rangers roster going forward.

I would include Zibanejad for now. Its highly suspected that he's suffering from COVID after-effects. He may never rebound from this illness. We don't have data on how people recover from this long-term. However, he was absolutely a 1C for more than just last year. The people claiming he was some fluke because of a high SH% and now he's playing at the level you'd expect forget his prior season and that he's clearly not physically right.

If he doesn't rebound, sure, it's an issue. However, I think taking him out of the main pieces category because of what we've seen for 15 games is a little over-reactionary. Healthy Zibanejad is absolutely a main piece, and is a 27 year old coming off two seasons in a row as a 1C, one of which he was the best goal-scorer in the league. That would absolutely be a mean piece for a team the next 5+ years.



Why shouldn't those things count? Like it or not, they factor in.



Considering this was a futures ranking and it was widely suspected that DeAngelo would be replaced next season by Nils Lundkvist, and at best he'd be the 6th or 7th most valuable U25 piece, so I'm skeptical that has much influence.

As to Hughes/Lafreniere Hughes stock at the time, you have a point there. However, it's not like Hughes didn't go through this a year ago and now he's doing well. Lafreniere will be a very good NHL'er. I doubt the ranking made that much distinction between the two.

It seems like you're mixing in different definitions of what's being talked about. When you bring up The Athletic's futures ranking, you have to realize that a player like Zibanejad is not part of that article, as it only looks at the U25 core among players which Zibenjad is not part of. I was referencing The Ranger's young core when talking about a lack of centers to build around. Also, has there actually been any reporting or legit sources stating that his struggles this season are COVID-related or is that just what is being speculated?

If we're talking about how a rebuild is going or which team has the best future outlook, I don't think that ownership and market should have much bearing on the results as long as the ownership is willing to spend to the cap to support a team. Otherwise, it just speaks to the ability to attract UFA's which isn't something that is necessary to build a good team.

When you're comparing how far along each team is in the rebuild, what are you looking at? I'm thinking having the pieces in place to be competitive in the next 3-5 years.

The article also does mention DeAngelo, so I think he may have had a higher influence in the rankings than you think, especially since he was already established in the NHL - not sure national writers would know of some plan for him to be replaced by Nils Lundkvist: A rival executive was recently chatting about the Rangers and their collection of young talent, predicting stardom for Alexis Lafreniere, while admiring young defensemen like Adam Fox and Tony DeAngelo. There was certainly a hint of jealousy in his voice when he talked about how the Rangers are able to land players in free agency.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

thank you Devils fan for your service for continuing this thread.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Remember when Jack Hughes sucked?

all the Devils needed to do was get a real coach. Hope the Rangers figure that out some day

 

[Nicomo Cosca]

Watch him take off with Panarin out of the picture. Hockey is weird like that sometimes.

It’s certainly possible. Nico Hischier started playing much better after Hall left last season.

 

[Nicomo Cosca]

all the Devils needed to do was get a real coach. Hope the Rangers figure that out some day

Well, that and have Hughes spend 10 months in the weight room...

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Well, that and have Hughes spend 10 months in the weight room...

eh, he's still a little twink. He's not getting by on his strength . He's just playing super confident. Wants to have the puck, and making plays. Hischier being out to start the season certainly helped. He's playing his game, the game that got him drafted #1 in the first place. Lafreniere is not playing his game. Just like Kakko wasn't playing his game last season. #Quinning

 

[HBK27]

The center position is a big hole that needs an Eichel-sized piece to catch up. But until some of these KHL defensemen that the Devils seems to be stockpiling pan out, it is advantage Rangers on blue line.

In the Devils games I have watched, other than Hughes and Smith who look fantastic, the guy that impresses me the most has been Sharanagovich, who looks like he could be #3 in the (Hughes/Hischier-led) center depth chart. A lot of skill, and a burner, but the hockey smarts sets him apart from guys like Zacha and McLeod. He is a total keeper.

Center is a massive hole right now for the Rangers, as few teams seem to have success if you're not strong down the middle. Defense is certainly the biggest need for the Devils, given they're set down the middle and have some good options with Holtz, Mercer, Bratt for top 6 roles and a lot of younger players showing so far this season they are capable of playing bottom 6 roles.

Devils have a lot of young defensemen in the mix, but it's a matter of whether or not any of them will pan out to be top pairing or at least top 4 defensemen. Mukhamadulin, Bahl, Walsh, Okhotyuk, Vukojevic, Misyul, & McCarthy are all still in the mix to possibly make it to the NHL one day, though none are really high-end prospects. Have to figure that's where the Devils go this year with their first round pick. As much as I've enjoyed how well they've played so far this season, one more top 10 pick (particularly on defense) could go a really long way with the future of this team.

Can someone comment on what happened with Rykov? Was in Hartford last season but stayed in the KHL this year, will be 24 in a couple of months - does he still have a future with the Rangers or has he been surpassed by too many other defensive prospects?

 

[Favin]

Mukhamadulin, Bahl, Walsh, Okhotyuk, Vukojevic, Misyul, & McCarthy are all still in the mix to possibly make it to the NHL one day, though none are really high-end prospects.

They're gonna need nicknames for these guys.

all the Devils needed to do was get a real coach. Hope the Rangers figure that out some day

Is coaching a part of what is holding Lafreniere back?

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Is coaching a part of what is holding Lafreniere back?

i know its the go-to excuse, but Quinn is absolutely clueless. I made fun of Devils fans for blaming their problems on Hynes. I've seen the light.

 

[Favin]

i know its the go-to excuse, but Quinn is absolutely clueless. I made fun of Devils fans for blaming their problems on Hynes. I've seen the light.

(maybe we should check on the Preds fans)

It seems to be a lot of the fan talk/blame seems to be on line combos. Not sure how much that is factor, but seems fixable.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It seems like you're mixing in different definitions of what's being talked about. When you bring up The Athletic's futures ranking, you have to realize that a player like Zibanejad is not part of that article, as it only looks at the U25 core among players which Zibenjad is not part of. I was referencing The Ranger's young core when talking about a lack of centers to build around. Also, has there actually been any reporting or legit sources stating that his struggles this season are COVID-related or is that just what is being speculated?

If we're talking about how a rebuild is going or which team has the best future outlook, I don't think that ownership and market should have much bearing on the results as long as the ownership is willing to spend to the cap to support a team. Otherwise, it just speaks to the ability to attract UFA's which isn't something that is necessary to build a good team.

When you're comparing how far along each team is in the rebuild, what are you looking at? I'm thinking having the pieces in place to be competitive in the next 3-5 years.

The article also does mention DeAngelo, so I think he may have had a higher influence in the rankings than you think, especially since he was already established in the NHL - not sure national writers would know of some plan for him to be replaced by Nils Lundkvist: A rival executive was recently chatting about the Rangers and their collection of young talent, predicting stardom for Alexis Lafreniere, while admiring young defensemen like Adam Fox and Tony DeAngelo. There was certainly a hint of jealousy in his voice when he talked about how the Rangers are able to land players in free agency.

I think we are all blending these discussions. If your point is that the Rangers don't have U25 centers that project as a main piece on a cup contender, I agree. I do however think the Rangers have a quality U25 center in Chytil that projects as a 2C. On any team there are going to be some younger and older players who fill important roles. That our hypothetical 1C is a little older than U25 won't register on a U25 rankings, but I think in the bigger picture of the rebuilds, a player like Zibanejad fits into that as a main piece.

Ownership and markets absolutely impacts it because look at how the Rangers rebuild acquired some of its pieces. Fox, Trouba, Panarin. Not all are U25, but they are all players who are going to be a big part of the Rangers team going forward. Maybe it's lucky, maybe it's unfair, but if it yields results, it matters.

Can someone comment on what happened with Rykov? Was in Hartford last season but stayed in the KHL this year, will be 24 in a couple of months - does he still have a future with the Rangers or has he been surpassed by too many other defensive prospects?

Out of favor with management. I doubt he'll be back. There's room for him to play this season on the NHL team and there was last season, but he hasn't gotten a chance yet. The bottom of our defensive lineup is weak, but he got injured in the prospect tournament last season. Missed a few months, so he was behind the pecking order. He probably would've made the team, if he was healthy. But he fell behind Lindgren who established himself quickly. Hajek is a management favorite because Gorton bet big on him in acquiring him as the McDonagh replacement, so he's gotten a lot of opportunities others won't get.

Rykov did pretty well in the AHL last season, but was loaned out to the KHL this season where he plays for the best team in the league, CSKA. He's done okay there, but its a pretty stacked defense. He's not their best defensemen, but he plays a role. I think he'd do a better job on our defense than JJ, Hajek, Smith, Bitetto, but the team has invested more into those guys. It's the same problem for Tarmo Reunanen, another young defensemen whose been really good for our AHL team. He probably will never get a chance with the big club, even though the team absolutely does not have 6-7 good defensemen.

 

[Goose]

I feel like the media actually does a pretty good job at appropriately hyping #1 picks.

I’ve been disconnected from the futures part of hockey for a few years now, so I only hear the “mainstream chatter” so to speak, and the lack of coverage / discussion enthusiasm about Lafreniere as the draft approached made me believe he wasn’t anything overly special, like Hughes the year before him.

They got it right on Crosby / McDavid as mega-hypes, Seguin / Hall as too close to call and a step below a generational player, Matthews as a potential generational type scorer etc.

 

[Nicomo Cosca]

eh, he's still a little twink. He's not getting by on his strength . He's just playing super confident. Wants to have the puck, and making plays. Hischier being out to start the season certainly helped. He's playing his game, the game that got him drafted #1 in the first place. Lafreniere is not playing his game. Just like Kakko wasn't playing his game last season. #Quinning

You clearly don’t watch much of Hughes. He is MUCH stronger this year. He’s battling with guys on the boards and doing things he simply couldn’t during his rookie season. And it wasn’t from lack of confidence.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

I've metioned this before but the Rangers are a weirdly constructed team. They overpayed a couple of wingers who have already peaked in Panarin and Kreider and threw a bunch of money on an overrated D like Trouba. Zibanejad is approaching washed up level. By the time their young prospects develop into their prime, the aforementioned players will already be on the decline. And the team lacks a quality goalie and no centers. Shesterkin is meh.

1. Panarian is at his peak rn, hes not passed it
2. Mika has been bad so far this season but washed is a ridiculously hyperbolic way of saying that
3. Igor is not meh if you actually believe that your out of your mind
You clearly have no clue bout the Rangers outside of an extremely tilted rival basis

 

[Auto Pilot]

Those guys are frankly nowhere near as good as Adam Fox, unfortunately.

lmao Severson is better than fox right now.