Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

[LokiDog]

I would really prefer this be the case because it’d mean changing coaches will solve it right away.

Imo, if he was capable of game breaking offensive skill and is just being held back by coaching, I suspect we’d have seen a lot more evidence of that skill so far.

I don’t know if that’s true or not. The first few games were his first games of any kind in almost a year and his first ever taste of NHL hockey. Of course he might be tentative but he actually did look dangerous those first few games.

If Quinn is coming down on skilled kids for trying to be skill players or making them afraid of not making the safe play or taking risks and getting caught then essentially they’re not playing their game and they’re trying to play a game they don’t know how to play at all; safe, responsible NHL level hockey. I can’t think of any 1 OAs who stepped in and were asked not to make mistakes and to focus on their own end more than generating offense.

You draft #1 you want to nurture all of their talent and make sure they’re comfortable playing THEIR game at the NHL level. The other stuff will come over time - to some degree, whether it’s developing an elite two-way game like Crosby or Hossa over time, or just smoothing out the warts to not be a liability like MacKinnon or Draisaitl - but the first concern should be fostering the elite offensive skill they were drafted for.

If, and it’s a big if since I’m only speculating, Quinn is asking them to play reliable two-way hockey and not take chances, it’s likely it would manifest in exactly what we’re seeing. We do have a quote from Kakko to this effect from last year, which @Amazing Kreiderman can probably provide again, so it isn’t too far fetched of an idea.

 

[LokiDog]

Exactly. Tendencies that surface due to lack of adversity. Matthews came out flying and he played against men in Switzerland. Stuetzle looks good and played against men in Germany. Now these aren’t top leagues, but those two saw more adversity playing against bigger, stronger opponents that prepared them for the rigors of the NHL.

I don’t think it’s any one thing for Laf. He came out rusty due to no camp or preseason, on a team with too much depth to hand him a spot, lacking a support system due our struggling offense and is now doubting himself more than he should cause he hasn’t faced this level of adversity in a long time. Add it all up and you get an outlier 1OA year. It doesn’t mean Laf has an issue, it just means it’ll take longer for him to work through it.

I’m willing to buy that Laf playing in Switzerland would have been good for his development, but what’s the excuse for Kakko then? Like Matthews and Stutzle he was playing against men. He was #2 overall and touted as the most ready guy in the draft. Pretty bad rookie season and still no production so far in year 2.

Laf didn’t play against men, had gone a long time without playing at all, had no preseason, short camp, etc. They both struggle to look anything like their draft pedigree. The only thing they have in common is David Quinn.

 

[Synergy27]

I’m willing to buy that Laf playing in Switzerland would have been good for his development, but what’s the excuse for Kakko then? Like Matthews and Stutzle he was playing against men. He was #2 overall and touted as the most ready guy in the draft. Pretty bad rookie season and still no production so far in year 2.

Laf didn’t play against men, had gone a long time without playing at all, had no preseason, short camp, etc. They both struggle to look anything like their draft pedigree. The only thing they have in common is David Quinn.

I don’t subscribe to this theory, but I think people will claim the opposite was true for Kakko. He played TOO MUCH hockey in his draft year. I personally never really bought into that, but it is a reasonable explanation for why he looked so slow and gassed after every shift last year. Was weird to see a kid that young look tired though.

So Laf played too little hockey.

Kakko played too much.

f*** Julien, we need to get Goldilocks in to replace DQ.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I don’t know if that’s true or not. The first few games were his first games of any kind in almost a year and his first ever taste of NHL hockey. Of course he might be tentative but he actually did look dangerous those first few games.

If Quinn is coming down on skilled kids for trying to be skill players or making them afraid of not making the safe play or taking risks and getting caught then essentially they’re not playing their game and they’re trying to play a game they don’t know how to play at all; safe, responsible NHL level hockey. I can’t think of any 1 OAs who stepped in and were asked not to make mistakes and to focus on their own end more than generating offense.

You draft #1 you want to nurture all of their talent and make sure they’re comfortable playing THEIR game at the NHL level. The other stuff will come over time - to some degree, whether it’s developing an elite two-way game like Crosby or Hossa over time, or just smoothing out the warts to not be a liability like MacKinnon or Draisaitl - but the first concern should be fostering the elite offensive skill they were drafted for.

If, and it’s a big if since I’m only speculating, Quinn is asking them to play reliable two-way hockey and not take chances, it’s likely it would manifest in exactly what we’re seeing. We do have a quote from Kakko to this effect from last year, which @Amazing Kreiderman can probably provide again, so it isn’t too far fetched of an idea.

Reg the Kakko quote:

Towards the end of the season I didn't really try anything special because if I tried something, then coach said "Don't do this and don't do that"

 

[NickyFotiu]

I think his skating speed looks good once he gets going but he has a very awkward first few strides. I see other Rangers passing him by at times during those first few strides. Its almost like he is trying to jump out of a hole with a 20 lb weight on his shoulders. I'd like the Rangers to get him with a power skating coach ASAP to smooth out and quicken his first few strides. That could make a world of difference for his confidence and game.

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

Reg the Kakko quote:

yeah this is bad. DQ needs to go.

 

[Gordon Bombay]

I don’t know if that’s true or not. The first few games were his first games of any kind in almost a year and his first ever taste of NHL hockey. Of course he might be tentative but he actually did look dangerous those first few games.

If Quinn is coming down on skilled kids for trying to be skill players or making them afraid of not making the safe play or taking risks and getting caught then essentially they’re not playing their game and they’re trying to play a game they don’t know how to play at all; safe, responsible NHL level hockey. I can’t think of any 1 OAs who stepped in and were asked not to make mistakes and to focus on their own end more than generating offense.

You draft #1 you want to nurture all of their talent and make sure they’re comfortable playing THEIR game at the NHL level. The other stuff will come over time - to some degree, whether it’s developing an elite two-way game like Crosby or Hossa over time, or just smoothing out the warts to not be a liability like MacKinnon or Draisaitl - but the first concern should be fostering the elite offensive skill they were drafted for.

If, and it’s a big if since I’m only speculating, Quinn is asking them to play reliable two-way hockey and not take chances, it’s likely it would manifest in exactly what we’re seeing. We do have a quote from Kakko to this effect from last year, which @Amazing Kreiderman can probably provide again, so it isn’t too far fetched of an idea.

You've hit it dead on with what I've been thinking as of late. It seems like Quinn wants these forwards to have good intentions and be in the right spots before they can open up the offense, which like you said is the complete opposite of what every other team does with top overall picks.

It's like he's back in NCAA and Laf and Kakko are freshman and they need to earn anything and everything.

I'm a big believer in letting these 2 guys play their game. Defense can always be taught, god given elite talent cannot. I think the majority of us can live with these guys being in the wrong spots if they're scoring goals and making things happen.

 

[dangsLITE]

My main problem with the Quinn as a confidence/creativity killer theory is that Laf has barely contributed on D either. I've seen so many times he could just get a bit more involved in his own zone, he could (kind of like KK right now) get some takeaways, break up some plays, block a shot from the point etc, which can generate offense and would make Quinn happy. I guess he's been relatively OK positionally, but he's just not really doing much to get the puck out of the zone and don't really think that is Quinn's fault.

Great players find a way to get make something happen even if they are not playing their natural role per se so hard to excuse him completely at this point given his overall effort level is average at best right now.

 

[Synergy27]

My main problem with the Quinn as a confidence/creativity killer theory is that Laf has barely contributed on D either. I've seen so many times he could just get a bit more involved in his own zone, he could (kind of like KK right now) get some takeaways, break up some plays, block a shot from the point etc, which can generate offense and would make Quinn happy. I guess he's been relatively OK positionally, but he's just not really doing much to get the puck out of the zone and don't really think that is Quinn's fault.

Great players find a way to get make something happen even if they are not playing their natural role per se so hard to excuse him completely at this point given his overall effort level is average at best right now.

This is a legitimate point. If I had to describe Laf’s play to date, I’d use the words “disengaged” or “tentative”. This is true on both sides of the puck, unless Noah Dobson has it.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I do think that most 1 OAs come into the league on pretty shallow, abysmal teams and get to play 12 minutes at EV and 3-4 on the PP each night, and really aren’t raked over the coals or benched for rookie mistakes. They’re told to be comfortable playing their game and not beat themselves up and they figure out how to translate their offense to the NHL first and then learn the defensive side of the game over time. Some don’t even learn the defensive side well, but no one complains - Ovie, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, etc. No one would ever confuse them for a Selke candidate but the defensive warts and risky play are deemed worth it because of the offensive talent they possess, which is why they’re given mostly free reign to develop that side of their game first and then try to round out the rest of their game later.

In my opinion as an observer, which I whole heartedly admit is just that, I think Quinn tries to do the exact opposite. The team isn’t great, but it has better depth (when healthy) and was a better team so far during his tenure than most teams who draft 1/2 OA. I also think he feels pressure to have a winning team since this is his first NHL gig, regardless of knowing we’re rebuilding. I think he tries to turn these kids into reliable, responsible two way players on day one, and the problem is they probably do need a few years before they’re mature enough to really do that, let alone do that while balancing it with being a productive, dangerous offensive player. If they were told to just worry about playing their game and translating their offense first, my opinion is they’d thrive much better, become more comfortable and at least get one part of their game (which coincidentally is the part that’s supposed to be their bread and butter anyway) clicking before they start worrying so much about being reliable and responsible 200 foot players. I think they’re being neutered to a degree.

I just can’t believe that the entire hockey world completely mis-scouted Lafreniere and he’s so far from being ready for NHL action. I imagine in Florida or Ottawa he would be putting up points, making rookie mistakes and the team would just live with those mistakes, try to shelter his EV minutes, give him tons of PP time with Barkov and Huberdeau and help him translate his offense (again, the main component of his game) while hoping the defensive warts iron out as he matures over the course of his ELC.

FWIW I absolutely believe this is what is happening as well, well said. Will it pay off for the NYR in the end? We'll see...I freely admit that it could so I hope it does.

 

[will1066]

Seriously, what the f*** is wrong with teaching them to rein their shit in as rookies? Again, these kids are coming into a "stacked" team that's not supposed to be a basement dweller like the situations of Eichel and McDavid where they were the default The Man. Re-signing Kreider, signing Panarin, capturing a lightning-in-a-bottle Mika, and landing Kakko all altered the rebuild's path. If Laf follows what Kakko went through, then we will see a pretty vibrant Laf next year. Kakko was turning it up before he got shelved. He was starting to get more minutes. Because he legitimately began deserving more.

Years from now, the learning to play responsibly and disciplined will pay off. This is a big-market team, not some bumblef*** hinterlands franchise with a milkdud balance sheet that can afford to tank several seasons of revenues to build a contender. This team needs to win some f***ing games while pushing the future along. You can't let the KIDS go out there hot dogging it against MEN thinking their in Europe or juniors and expect to go 0-56 for their sakes.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Just so I'm clear, the general consensus around here is that the reason why Laff is off to a slow start is because Quinn is putting him on the first line AND mandating he go out on the ice and not make any mistakes?

 

[LokiDog]

Just so I'm clear, the general consensus around here is that the reason why Laff is off to a slow start is because Quinn is putting him on the first line AND mandating he go out on the ice and not make any mistakes?

Sort of? 12 sheltered minutes of easy matchups at EV and spoon fed PP time where he can play with talented players and extra space would be a lot better for his confidence and allow him not to be so worried about taking a chance or making a mistake. He looks paralyzed by the responsibility of playing on the top line against top players and being asked to be more responsible against tougher competition than he’s ever been asked to be. If he was getting softer matchups on a lower line that had less expectations, taking a chance here and there wouldn’t be as risky nor would there be as much pressure. Getting 3+ minutes of PP time per game would be his opportunity to get comfortable when there’s extra space, get some points on the board and get some confidence.

Just a theory. Hypothetical. I’m not gonna die on that hill or argue over it. It’s just how I’ve felt watching the first 1:4 of the season.

 

[duhmetreE]

No matter the sport, if you have to think in what your next action is, instead of letting your instincts take over, you will look/be slow.

Just so I'm clear, the general consensus around here is that the reason why Laff is off to a slow start is because Quinn is putting him on the first line AND mandating he go out on the ice and not make any mistakes?

I think Laf has looked decent for the most part. Not getting to play in a modern NHL system that carries the puck, having shoddy center play and not getting PP1 time is why he is not producing better numbers.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

No matter the sport, if you have to think in what your next action is, instead of letting your instincts take over, you will look/be slow.


I think Laf has looked decent for the most part. Not getting to play in a modern NHL system that carries the puck, having shoddy center play and not getting PP1 time is why he is not producing better numbers.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but just what the hell is a modern NHL system? The system they played last year (and I'm assuming it's the same one this year) produced an offense that was top 5 of the league, no? Is the answer to just let him go out and do whatever the hell he wants? Doesn't seem tenable to me.

Sort of? 12 sheltered minutes of easy matchups at EV and spoon fed PP time where he can play with talented players and extra space would be a lot better for his confidence and allow him not to be so worried about taking a chance or making a mistake. He looks paralyzed by the responsibility of playing on the top line against top players and being asked to be more responsible against tougher competition than he’s ever been asked to be. If he was getting softer matchups on a lower line that had less expectations, taking a chance here and there wouldn’t be as risky nor would there be as much pressure. Getting 3+ minutes of PP time per game would be his opportunity to get comfortable when there’s extra space, get some points on the board and get some confidence.

Just a theory. Hypothetical. I’m not gonna die on that hill or argue over it. It’s just how I’ve felt watching the first 1:4 of the season.

I'm having difficult squaring this logic. Give him sheltered minutes of easy matchups at ES but then throw him on the top PP line where everything happens at a much faster pace? And good, let him learn how to be responsible. What better season for that than this one?

 

[LokiDog]

I'm not trying to be difficult, but just what the hell is a modern NHL system? The system they played last year (and I'm assuming it's the same one this year) produced an offense that was top 5 of the league, no? Is the answer to just let him go out and do whatever the hell he wants? Doesn't seem tenable to me.



I'm having difficult squaring this logic. Give him sheltered minutes of easy matchups at ES but then throw him on the top PP line where everything happens at a much faster pace? And good, let him learn how to be responsible. What better season for that than this one?

You can’t square sheltered minutes with PP time? Guys like DeAngelo historically get sheltered EV minutes and then play the full PP because there’s more space and less likelihood of a mistake ending up in your net, versus just being cleared down the ice and having to reset. The PP is a good place to get offensive reps and opportunities with other talented players when the team, theoretically, has controlled possession and extra space to operate. Sheltered EV minutes means you’re not on the ice against Pastrnak’s line, Giroux’s line, etc.

 

[Off Sides]

Seriously, what the f*** is wrong with teaching them to reign their shit in as rookies? Again, these kids are coming into a "stacked" team that's not supposed to be a basement dweller like the situations of Eichel and McDavid where they were the default The Man. Re-signing Kreider, signing Panarin, capturing a lightning-in-a-bottle Mika, and landing Kakko all altered the rebuild's path. If Laf follows what Kakko went through, then we will see a pretty vibrant Laf next year. Kakko was turning it up before he got shelved. He was starting to get more minutes. Because he legitimately began deserving more.

Years from now, the learning to play responsibly and disciplined will pay off. This is a big-market team, not some bumblef*** hinterlands franchise with a milkdud balance sheet that can afford to tank several seasons of revenues to build a contender. This team needs to win some f***ing games while pushing the future along. You can't let the KIDS go out there hot dogging it against MEN thinking their in Europe or juniors and expect to go 0-56 for their sakes.

You get a like for the "milkdud balance sheet"

 

[aufheben]

Years from now, the learning to play responsibly and disciplined will pay off. This is a big-market team, not some bumblef*** hinterlands franchise with a milkdud balance sheet that can afford to tank several seasons of revenues to build a contender. This team needs to win some f***ing games while pushing the future along. You can't let the KIDS go out there hot dogging it against MEN thinking their in Europe or juniors and expect to go 0-56 for their sakes.

I love it.

For real though. It’s the NHL. All these ideal conditions...what is he a f***ing truffle?

 

[duhmetreE]

I'm not trying to be difficult, but just what the hell is a modern NHL system? The system they played last year (and I'm assuming it's the same one this year) produced an offense that was top 5 of the league, no? Is the answer to just let him go out and do whatever the hell he wants? Doesn't seem tenable to me.

Modern NHL = speed and skill. Carrying the puck out of the zone and in zone entry. Using the middle of the ice

If all of your offense starts with a dump in, it may take time for 'skill players' to get acclimated to it. Players like Laf do not have the puck with space and/or time. Go look how Stutzle is scoring and you will see

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Modern NHL = speed and skill. Carrying the puck out of the zone and in zone entry. Using the middle of the ice

If all of your offense starts with a dump in, it may take time for 'skill players' to get acclimated to it. Players like Laf do not have the puck with space and/or time. Go look how Stutzle is scoring and you will see

They were a top 5 offensive team in the league last year. They scored 233 goals last season, just 10 less than Tampa, the top team. Did they accomplish this feat in some archaic system from the 50s? What magical system creates all this open space for players? It's the players job to go find open space. Laff doesnt' have the puck because he doesn't want the puck right now, it's really that simple. And when he gets it, it's a bad drop pass or a turnover right over the blueline. Maybe have him go look at what Stutzle is doing.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

You can’t square sheltered minutes with PP time? Guys like DeAngelo historically get sheltered EV minutes and then play the full PP because there’s more space and less likelihood of a mistake ending up in your net, versus just being cleared down the ice and having to reset. The PP is a good place to get offensive reps and opportunities with other talented players when the team, theoretically, has controlled possession and extra space to operate. Sheltered EV minutes means you’re not on the ice against Pastrnak’s line, Giroux’s line, etc.

Guys like Deangelo get sheltered minutes because they're dog-shit defenders (I have much higher expectations for Laff). Also, Deangelo was lights out on PP, played an entirely different position, and was the teams best option. Can you honestly say that right now Laff is one of the top four forwards on PPI? I can't. And the PP is absolutely not the right place to get reps. They're moving the puck much faster in the offensive zone than at ES.

 

[duhmetreE]

They were a top 5 offensive team in the league last year. They scored 233 goals last season, just 10 less than Tampa, the top team. Did they accomplish this feat in some archaic system from the 50s? What magical system creates all this open space for players? It's the players job to go find open space. Laff doesnt' have the puck because he doesn't want the puck right now, it's really that simple. And when he gets it, it's a bad drop pass or a turnover right over the blueline. Maybe have him go look at what Stutzle is doing.

what does last year have to do with this year?

Panarin was having a historic season at even-strength. Our PP was lighting it up. Zibs was scoring at a ridiculous rate. None of that is happening now.. If the success of the team relies on all of those aspects, it's not sustainable.

Our PP looked good last game, went back to a similar PP from last year... 1-3-1. we will win more games if it stays with it. I still think we will struggle at Even-Strength, unless adjustments are made

Carrying the puck through the zone is where Laf would excel. Chipping it through zones and dumping it in is not his 'strong suit'. Stutzle is scoring on transition, which we do not have and on the PP.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

what does last year have to do with this year?

Panarin was having a historic season at even-strength. Our PP was lighting it up. Zibs was scoring at a ridiculous rate. None of that is happening.. If the success of the team relies on all of those aspects, it's not sustainable. Our PP looked good last game, went back to a similar PP from last year... 1-3-1.

Because you're complaining about the system. Saying it's not modern and is stifling Laff, when clearly it was good enough to score a boatload of goals last season.

 

[LokiDog]

Guys like Deangelo get sheltered minutes because their dog-shit defenders (I have much higher expectations for Laff). Also, Deangelo was lights out on PP, played an entirely different position, and was the teams best option. Can you honestly say that right now Laff is one of the top four forwards on PPI? I can't. And the PP is absolutely not the right place to get reps. They're moving the puck much faster in the offensive zone than at EV.

But Laf is a 19 year old rookie drafted for his offense. He’s dog shit defensively too. It doesn’t mean he always will be, but almost universally, offensive stars start out producing and being a liability defensively and then develop better defensive play and decision making over their career. How can I say if Laf would be a top 4 forward on the PP if he doesn’t get more than 20 second glimpses on PP1? Am I saying he’s currently better than Strome overall? No, but how would anyone know if Laf would do well in Strome’s spot on the PP without giving it a chance. Would DeAngelo be as lights out on the PP if his unit was Buch, Lemieux, Rooney and Bitetto? Was he just so magical that he would make any PP lights out? Or was he a guy who, when used at the man advantage with a talented unit, shined then? Lafreniere may be a great PP player, maybe even what you’d call a PP specialist, at this early stage in his game, if he’s playing with Zib, Kreider, Panarin and Fox. We can’t know that, because even a PP specialist isn’t going to produce with Blackwell, Lemieux, Bitetto and Smith. If the PP can’t even get set in the zone and keep possession, not even Quinn Hughes is going to impress. A lack of 5v5 production =/= to unfit to play with talented players on the PP.

 

[duhmetreE]

Because you're complaining about the system. Saying it's not modern and is stifling Laff, when clearly it was good enough to score a boatload of goals last season.

How did Kakko fare in it last year? How did Chytil his first couple of years?

There's a learning curve.

Saying, Panarin and Zibanejad had historic/career years last year, why isn't Laf doing good? is faulty logic imo. Compare Laf to all the other kids and imo he's ahead of them.

If we had a better transition, neutral zone game, zone entry, Laf would be putting up more points. Once again, go look at Stutzle success. Scoring on the rush/zone entry is where Laf should excel; but we chip and dump, do not transition with possession. PP as well but PP2 has been horrendous and he's been overlooked by Blackwell. Even with our possession in the o-zone, there's way too much perimeter play. Sprinkle in how our centers have been playing and Laf being out of position some games... and it is what it is.

The system was also way more aggressive in the forecheck last year. It's not a 1:1 translation from year to year. The system has been altered