Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

[HockeyBasedNYC]

I don't think Laf was the wrong choice or that he's a bust or anything. I think his struggles are mostly to blame on the coach and the organization. Guarantee he'd be putting up a "normal" 1st OA season elsewhere, even with a team like Detroit

Ehhhh... cant really agree with this. The pandemic really screwed things up with a shortened camp, preseason, training, lack of games leading up to it all. Its pretty unprecedented. That has to be mentioned in some capacity.

Fair to kill the coach if you want. Not sure what the organization could do better honestly. He was brought to the area and stayed with a Billet family with a rink in the backyard before he could skate anywhere really. They set him up with Prentiss. They gave him everything he needed to succeed going into camp. Its a screwy time. Not sure what else an organization could do to make things better.

And maybe I see it more as "developing" and not "struggling" too. He's 19 years old. We knew going in he wasn't a Crosby, McDavid or Matthews.

If you want to be upset you have every right to be. But who knows if he would be going gangbusters on any other team. I cant really buy that but it would be nice to know in some kind of multi-universe test.

 

[Anthony5967]

When they're bad it's because of Quinn. When they're good it's in spite of Quinn.

They were good last year because several guys had astronomical career years lmao. How people don't understand this is beyond me. What is Zibanejad this year? DeAngelo? Panarin was insane and is now missing time, something he didn't have happen last year. Shesterkin got absurdly hot for the 12 games he was here and stole games by stopping like 40+ a night. What has he done for the top picks? He ran Andersson out of here. He loves Howden and his fumbling of pucks. I am watching Stutzle, as much as people rip DJ Smith, be put in situations to succeed. I can guarantee that DJ wouldn't be playing Johnny frieken Brodzinski more minutes after the first period of games. Come on, people have to open their eyes already. This guy is a clown. Even when they were healthy beginning of the year, they were underachieving big time. He holds like three players accountable but the others he doesn't.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Ehhhh... cant really agree with this. The pandemic really screwed things up with a shortened camp, preseason, training, lack of games leading up to it all. Its pretty unprecedented. That has to be mentioned in some capacity.

Fair to kill the coach if you want. Not sure what the organization could do better honestly. He was brought to the area and stayed with a Billet family with a rink in the backyard before he could skate anywhere really. They set him up with Prentiss. They gave him everything he needed to succeed going into camp. Its a screwy time. Not sure what else an organization could do to make things better.

And maybe I see it more as "developing" and not "struggling" too. He's 19 years old. We knew going in he wasn't a Crosby, McDavid or Matthews.

all #1 picks are 18 or 19. And its not like our expectations were out of whack. He's not even been Yakupov or Hughes or Hischier

 

[Trxjw]

They were good last year because several guys had astronomical career years lmao. How people don't understand this is beyond me. What is Zibanejad this year? DeAngelo? Panarin was insane and is now missing time, something he didn't have happen last year. Shesterkin got absurdly hot for the 12 games he was here and stole games by stopping like 40+ a night. What has he done for the top picks? He ran Andersson out of here. He loves Howden and his fumbling of pucks. I am watching Stutzle, as much as people rip DJ Smith, be put in situations to succeed. I can guarantee that DJ wouldn't be playing Johnny frieken Brodzinski more minutes after the first period of games. Come on, people have to open their eyes already. This guy is a clown. Even when they were healthy beginning of the year, they were underachieving big time. He holds like three players accountable but the others he doesn't.

Responds to my post by proving my point. Incredible.

 

[haveandare]

They were good last year because several guys had astronomical career years lmao. How people don't understand this is beyond me. What is Zibanejad this year? DeAngelo? Panarin was insane and is now missing time, something he didn't have happen last year. Shesterkin got absurdly hot for the 12 games he was here and stole games by stopping like 40+ a night. What has he done for the top picks? He ran Andersson out of here. He loves Howden and his fumbling of pucks. I am watching Stutzle, as much as people rip DJ Smith, be put in situations to succeed. I can guarantee that DJ wouldn't be playing Johnny frieken Brodzinski more minutes after the first period of games. Come on, people have to open their eyes already. This guy is a clown. Even when they were healthy beginning of the year, they were underachieving big time. He holds like three players accountable but the others he doesn't.

If the complaint is he doesn’t let skilled players play, which is something many people are complaining about, the fact that they had career years with him is something to be answered for. Nobody ran Andersson out but his own terrible attitude and personal problems. He’s on another team and not any better. Howden was 4C until we lost a 3C right at the start of things. He’s a decent 4C being played up only because of lack of depth and injury. Brodzinksi played too much but getting all bent out of shape over toi after one period in a game were Laf ended up with a lot more toi is just a weird stretch.

He’s not a great coach but a lot of the specific complaints are so silly

 

[duhmetreE]

They have not had the best pivot-play.
Our transition game is below average and usually just leads to a dump.
Dump and chase and play a perimeter possession game. Limited space and time, not conducive to their skillset
No PP1 time. Not afforded the opportunity to utilize skill with the man advantage and space
The PP2 setup has been bad

I do not expect them to be mistake free, perfect players. But in the modern NHL, talent is suppose to shine through, no matter the age/experience. I do not believe they have been put in the most optimal position to succeed and produce offensively. Laf has had some chances but they are far and few in between. If the average player scores 30% of the time in high-danger chacnes, how many goals should he have?

 

[Machinehead]

Although not a #1 pick, Draisatl only had 2 goals and 9 points in his first 37 games. He's now easily a top 3 forward.

This season is a lost cause already. We need to be patient and will eventually reap the rewards. The top end skill IS there, he just hasn't quite figured out how to put it into practice. It's a bummer he didn't come out guns blazing, but I'm not worried about him at all.

Pretty sure Dallas Eakins was their coach at the time too.

That's a guy people were psyched to get rid of.

 

[Machinehead]

Also, to this day, Draisaitl still doesn't play any defense or do any of the other nebulous shit and you know what?

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I just want to make sure you are aware of my post history as related to Lafreniere. Response indicates you might not be.

I was just answering your question, but have no idea how you feel about #13.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

all #1 picks are 18 or 19. And its not like our expectations were out of whack. He's not even been Yakupov or Hughes or Hischier

Or Lecavalier?

I get it. It stinks. But every kid is different.

Does this start kill any chance that in 5 years from now he could put up 60-80 points?

 

[Machinehead]

Or Lecavalier?

I get it. It stinks. But every kid is different.

Does this start kill any chance that in 5 years from now he could put up 60-80 points?

No. I was hoping that number would be be higher, but no.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

No. I was hoping that number would be be higher, but no.

Ok 70-90 lol you get the idea

 

[Machinehead]

I think the Lecavalier comparison is a good one. The only thing is, Lecavalier had 28 points, which translates to 19 in the shortened season.

At this point, Lafreniere has to get pretty f***ing hot to hit 19 in 56. And he's playing a minute more per game than Lecavalier did.

I think people get that there are good and bad rookie seasons from top picks. The alarm is coming from the fact that even the bad ones blow away what Laf is doing offensively.

 

[Machinehead]

At one point last year, Kakko quietly had 7 points in 6 games. If Laf did that then we would be at a point where it's in the bad range for a first overall but not unprecedented.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Do people still think it was a good idea not to let him go to the WJC? I got slammed for saying he should go lol

 

[LokiDog]

Pretty sure Dallas Eakins was their coach at the time too.

That's a guy people were psyched to get rid of.

Hmm. Coaches name starts with DA and ends with IN(N). Think we’ve solved it.

 

[LokiDog]

I think the Lecavalier comparison is a good one. The only thing is, Lecavalier had 28 points, which translates to 19 in the shortened season.

At this point, Lafreniere has to get pretty f***ing hot to hit 19 in 56. And he's playing a minute more per game than Lecavalier did.

I think people get that there are good and bad rookie seasons from top picks. The alarm is coming from the fact that even the bad ones blow away what Laf is doing offensively.

This is the problem. Every time someone tries to say okay, these back to back seasons from Laf and Kakko are becoming alarming there’s a brigade of “not everyone is McDavid or Matthews” but the fact is, they are alarming (Laf significantly more so, though KK while looking good is still not producing as a sophomore) compared to virtually ALL #1/2 picks over the past two decades. I’ve posted the numbers numerous times. If I can find them again I’ll add them to this post. Laf is on pace for the worst rookie year of any #1 overall in the past 20 years, by a far margin. Kakko had a bottom 3 rookie year for a #2 in the past 20 years and is on pace for the worst sophomore season of any #2 in that span. Statistically, literally. Not a feeling or a knee jerk reaction. Black and white stats.

And there really just has to be something to that. There’s no way we just happened to draft the worst #1 and #2 pick in two decades in back to back years. It stands to reason that the way they’re being talked to and coached in practice, in the locker room and on the bench, the way they’re being asked to play and the way they’re being deployed is limiting their confidence and the characteristics that made them high draft selections. Fox and Miller, you’re asking them to play defense, to be safe and smart. I get you want star rookie forwards to learn that too, but with defenseman, pounding that home isn’t going to mess up their game too much, unless they were a pure offense first Quinn Hughes type, maybe. With forwards, you’re effectively developing Kakko and Laf into Howden instead of into Panarin. Bad choice.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I think the Lecavalier comparison is a good one. The only thing is, Lecavalier had 28 points, which translates to 19 in the shortened season.

At this point, Lafreniere has to get pretty f***ing hot to hit 19 in 56. And he's playing a minute more per game than Lecavalier did.

I think people get that there are good and bad rookie seasons from top picks. The alarm is coming from the fact that even the bad ones blow away what Laf is doing offensively.

And Lecavalier was debuting in the DPE.

 

[aufheben]

I think the Lecavalier comparison is a good one. The only thing is, Lecavalier had 28 points, which translates to 19 in the shortened season.

At this point, Lafreniere has to get pretty f***ing hot to hit 19 in 56. And he's playing a minute more per game than Lecavalier did.

I think people get that there are good and bad rookie seasons from top picks. The alarm is coming from the fact that even the bad ones blow away what Laf is doing offensively.

Lecavalier scored 4 points in his first 21 games, and finished 18th in Calder voting despite being—I have to imagine—the consensus ROTY going into the 1998-99 season.

 

[LokiDog]

Lecavalier scored 4 points in his first 21 games, and finished 18th in Calder voting despite being—I have to imagine—the consensus ROTY going into the 1998-99 season.

And still had a more productive rookie year than Laf is pacing for, which is the point I think @Machinehead was trying to make. You have to go back 20+ years to get to a rookie season as bad as Lecavalier or Thornton had for a #1.

 

[aufheben]

And still had a more productive rookie year than Laf is pacing for, which is the point I think @Machinehead was trying to make. You have to go back 20+ years to get to a rookie season as bad as Lecavalier or Thornton had for a #1.

For me, the fact that it’s so alarming tells me there’s more to it than Lafreniere not playing well. Like it’s not “disappointing” it’s...suspiciously bad.

His freaking oiSH% is 3.6%. The kid’s been on the ice for 4 even strength goals this year. 4.

One thing is...Laf has played a lot with Zibanejad this year, and, yeah...and remember, Zibanejad scored 19 goals and 28 f***ing points in the final 17 games of last season.

 

[LokiDog]

For me, the fact that it’s so alarming tells me there’s more to it than Lafreniere not playing well. Like it’s not “disappointing” it’s...suspiciously bad.

I have to agree. I mentioned it above but there has to be something more to it. I know it’s an odd year but Kakko also had a bottom ~3 season for a #2 overall last year and, while he LOOKS good, hasn’t produced at all as a sophomore either. We didn’t just randomly happen to draft the two most disappointing 1/2s of the past two decades. There’s no way.

Honestly, I think that Quinn does well with defenseman because he tells them to play defense. Just play defense, be smart, and when they do that they get rewarded, gain confidence and we end up with Fox, Miller, Lindgren. Good prospects who did what they were told (which fit their expected role) and so they look good and have become confident and successful. I think Quinn is coaching the young star forwards the same way. The problem is, that’s not their expected role or their natural game. They struggle with it, get chewed out, get benched, lose confidence, play scared, etc. Quinn is coaching #1 and #2 overall picks to play like Brett Howden or Dominic Moore instead of to play like Panarin or Kane. That works with defenseman because they play defense. I think it’s really hurting the forwards. If we had a high end super offensive D prospect like a Hughes type I bet we’d see the same thing. More of a struggle because he’s not being empowered to play to his strength.

 

[aufheben]

I have to agree. I mentioned it above but there has to be something more to it. I know it’s an odd year but Kakko also had a bottom ~3 season for a #2 overall last year and, while he LOOKS good, hasn’t produced at all as a sophomore either. We didn’t just randomly happen to draft the two most disappointing 1/2s of the past two decades. There’s no way.

Honestly, I think that Quinn does well with defenseman because he tells them to play defense. Just play defense, be smart, and when they do that they get rewarded, gain confidence and we end up with Fox, Miller, Lindgren. Good prospects who did what they were told (which fit their expected role) and so they look good and have become confident and successful. I think Quinn is coaching the young star forwards the same way. The problem is, that’s not their expected role or their natural game. They struggle with it, get chewed out, get benched, lose confidence, play scared, etc. Quinn is coaching #1 and #2 overall picks to play like Brett Howden or Dominic Moore instead of to play like Panarin or Kane. That works with defenseman because they play defense. I think it’s really hurting the forwards. If we had a high end super offensive D prospect like a Hughes type I bet we’d see the same thing. More of a struggle because he’s not being empowered to play to his strength.

I think we’re the Rangers and even Crosby would have a shit rookie year for us.

 

[KotBegemot]

Quinn is coaching #1 and #2 overall picks to play like Brett Howden or Dominic Moore instead of to play like Panarin or Kane

To play like Panarin or Kane they need to be on Panarin/Kane level. They're not so far. Both Kakko and Laf looked to me like they're not up to speed of NHL yet, in terms of pure hockey sense. Last year Kakko I mean. This year Kakko was way better. Laf has similar problems although it wasn't what I thought of him in his first game. Where did all those creativity and good passes disappear I wonder.

 

[LokiDog]

I think we’re the Rangers and even Crosby would have a shit rookie year for us.

That’s how it feels. But there has to be a reason. And it’s odd that our D have good rookie years but not any forwards.