Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

[The New Russian Five]

Anderson has 1 point and is a -6 in 11 games with the Kings. Kakko looks terrific this year. Kravtsov took his ball and went home because the mean people shipped him off to Hartford. And Laff is struggling 18 games into his NHL career. What pattern??

Sounds like you have an excuse for every player that struggles under Quinn. Hey, hey do Gauthier next. He was a scoring machine in the AHL and now looks useless most of the time in the offensive zone. What excuse are you going to use for that one?

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

You said it yourself. Kakko looks good now. So, it's not the physcial talent of the player being the issue.

Kakko, Lias, Kravtsov, Chytil and now Laf. At what point do you think it's 'fair' to look at the coach/system and question it?

He's a year older, physically maturing, and is playing with a ton of confidence. That's the difference between Kakko's first season and this season. Same coach, same system but different player. Which is to be expected when we're talking about teenagers playing in the best league on the planet. What's wrong with Chytil? He didn't progress fast enough? Is that your complaint? Can Kravtsov make the team first before we say the coach ruined him? Anderson was a dud, it happens.

 

[Woncka]

What's so different about the Rangers offensive system than Tampa's or Ottawa's?

Id have to sit down and specifically analyze their systems, so I cant say

however an example of the Devils changing systems and it helping young talent immensely was from Hynes to Ruff. Hynes was a 'sacrifice offense for smart play' type and this really affected confidence of our high-scoring prospects whod hed try to turn into two way guys.

now Ruff lets them be creative as long as they remember to be supportive. This has given them leash to maybe make a bad play or two, but then later on turns into a goal.

its like in basketball; when your three point man is missing, he needs to keep shooting. John Hynes would stop that while Ruff doesnt.

I wont get into super specifics on the actual systems employed (As thatd require me to do some research) but thats just a simple example of how systems can affect confidence

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Sounds like you have an excuse for every player that struggles under Quinn. Hey, hey do Gauthier next. He was a scoring machine in the AHL and now looks useless most of the time in the offensive zone. What excuse are you going to use for that one?

It's called reality, bud. The only excuses being made here are by the folks mad at Quinn for being mean to Laff and Kakko.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Id have to sit down and specifically analyze their systems, so I cant say

however an example of the Devils changing systems and it helping young talent immensely was from Hynes to Ruff. Hynes was a 'sacrifice offense for smart play' type and this really affected confidence of our high-scoring prospects whod hed try to turn into two way guys.

now Ruff lets them be creative as long as they remember to be supportive. This has given them leash to maybe make a bad play or two, but then later on turns into a goal.

its like in basketball; when your three point man is missing, he needs to keep shooting. John Hynes would stop that while Ruff doesnt.

I wont get into super specifics on the actual systems employed, but thats just a simple example of how systems can affect confidence

So you won't break down the system. Can you point to an instance where a Ranger had a chance to make a play but didn't because of this suffocating, defense first offensive system? And that basketball analogy don't work. That's a mindset.

 

[duhmetreE]

It just feels like your using Quinn's system argument - which you've yet to describe to me - to excuse a player's failure, when most of the time it's the other way around. People make way too much about systems anyway, this isn't like taking a running QB and trying to turn him into a pocket passer. He's a LW who isn't doing much when the puck ends up on his stick at the moment. I don't know what system is going to change that.

It's a simple north-south chip, dump and chase. There's no breakouts using the middle of the ice. There's little to no transition game to speak of. RARELY is the puck carried in, Panarin is the exception, along with Chytil. IF and when we do get possession in the o-zone, we have had a perimeter game. Rarely have any players moving, attempting to find soft spots. Crashing the net has gotten a little better. Puck support is non-existent by design, because why support the puck when it's just going to get chipped/dumped?

Using last game as as example, I saw multiple plays where the puck was dumped in right after zone entry and/or right before the blueline...

We look like a hot mess on the rush/transition. Nothing is crisp. No one knows where their teammates are going to be. It's been a hot mess, I don't know what else to say.

Our PP has been just as bad. For whatever reason, they swtiched back to a true 1-3-1 last game. The ironic and funny aspect, they chose Blackwell as the bumper over Laf.

If you have not seen this talked about, I do not know what to say.. It's getting to the point, I feel like I talk about Quinns offensive system TOO much... even I'm getting tired of it.

 

[The New Russian Five]

What's so different about the Rangers offensive system than Tampa's or Ottawa's?

The fact that they don't have a system... lol

I don't watch Tampa or Ottawa enough to tell you what their system was, but I can tell you the system that Renney, Torts, and AV used as rangers coaches.

Renney: was very structured, 1 man in on the forecheck wings high on the boards, 5-in the picture on the break out.

Torts: very defensive minded, zone-D, emphasis on clogging up the slot, and quick counter-attacks and a lot of board work cycling when having possession in the zone.

AV: Take up space, stretch out and force the other team to cover a lot of ground. Look for more high opportunity shots crash the net on those instances. Oh and of course, turtle when you have the lead.

Any coach the rangers have had in the past, I can figure out their system.

Do you know who I can't for the life of me figure out what system is being used after 2.5 years? Quinn
The only thing that was established last year was that he was ok with D being overzealous and jumping in on the offense, which was effective and establishing havoc in the offensive zone, but at the price of consistent odd man rushes going the other way. But you know what, that was probably more on Ruff, because this year Martin is having the D play way more conservative. Hence why there are less odd man rushes against, but we suck offensively. But again, that change was made when switching from Ruff to Martin. So I am still not sure what Quinn has brought to the table system-wise, other than "we need to play with better intentions."

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

It's a simple north-south chip, dump and chase. There's no breakouts using the middle of the ice. There's little to no transition game to speak of. RARELY is the puck carried in, Panarin is the exception, along with Chytil. IF and when we do get possession in the o-zone, we have had a perimeter game. Rarely have any players moving, attempting to find soft spots. Crashing the net has gotten a little better. Puck support is non-existent by design, because why support the puck when it's just going to get chipped/dumped?

Using last game as as example, I saw multiple plays where the puck was dumped in right after zone entry and/or right before the blueline...

We look like a hot mess on the rush/transition. Nothing is crisp. No one knows where their teammates are going to be. It's been a hot mess, I don't know what else to say.

Our PP has been just as bad. For whatever reason, they swtiched back to a true 1-3-1 last game. The ironic and funny aspect, they chose Blackwell as the bumper over Laf.

If you have not seen this talked about, I do not know what to say.. It's getting to the point, I feel like I talk about Quinns offensive system TOO much... even I'm getting tired of it.

at least the PP scored a couple goals against Philly.

 

[Woncka]

So you won't break down the system. Can you point to an instance where a Ranger had a chance to make a play but didn't because of this suffocating, defense first offensive system? And that basketball analogy don't work. That's a mindset.

Well I mean this conversation isnt worth the research itd take to make such finely combed points, sorry

however stating the basketball analogy doesnt work is just .. well wrong. Its half of everything. Systems involve mindsets

Barry Trotz's system is the best defensive system currently employed. Yet it will NEVER work if guys arent hustling on fore checks , and in the defensive zone they gotta hustle to half wall pressures and goal line stands.

The days the Islanders take off, they get stomped. Vice versa, a team like Boston can take a game off but only let up 2-3 because their system is far more slow paced, methodical stretching of the ice.

Quinn's mentality and systems are conducive of a shaken or poor confidence in young players. This is because they are mistake-prone and Quinn wants to see well-rounded before guys shine in their respective strengths.

Quinn puts the 'complete player' ahead of whats best for THAT player. Jack Hughes? Why would a coach force Jack Hughes to become a defensive guy if he can be our offensive juggernaut AS LONG AS he tries to backcheck and play hard? Quinn would try and force Jack (like Hynes did) to become more defensively responsible at the expense of Jacks natural talents, being offensive

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

It's a simple north-south chip, dump and chase. There's no breakouts using the middle of the ice. There's little to no transition game to speak of. RARELY is the puck carried in, Panarin is the exception, along with Chytil. IF and when we do get possession in the o-zone, we have had a perimeter game. Rarely have any players moving, attempting to find soft spots. Crashing the net has gotten a little better.

Using last game as as example, I saw multiple plays where the puck was dumped in right after zone entry and/or right before the blueline...

We look like a hot mess on the rush/transition. Nothing is crisp. No one knows where their teammates are going to be. It's been a hot mess, I don't know what else to say.

Our PP has been just as bad. For whatever reason, they swtiched back to a true 1-3-1 last game. The ironic and funny aspect, they chose Blackwell as the bumper over Laf.

If you have not seen this talked about, I do not know what to say.. It's getting to the point, I feel like I talk about Quinns offensive system TOO much... even I'm getting tired of it.

I don't really agree or think this is accurate but I will watch their breakouts more critically tonight. I'd add Strome and Zib to the list of players that carry the puck into the zone frequently. I'd also say that you most certainly do not want guys like Howden and Rooney carrying the puck into the zone, you want them dumping and chasing.

But you're telling me that Quinn's philosophy in the offensive zone is to play a perimeter game and to not find any soft spots? That's his system?

 

[aufheben]

How do you know he'd have more points when he seems to struggle doing the most basic stuff? Can you please point to any evidence - quote or analysis - that we don't have a transition/possession entry game? Do you recall an instance where the forward had the puck in the neutral zone with space and time and just dumped it in, because the system? Because honestly I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that this team is sacrificing zone entries or possession for the sake of a dump and chase system. In fact, it's been quite the opposite. Not getting pucks deep when that was the best option.

This is unfortunately for the 2019-20 season, but nonetheless...

2019-20 Zone Entries

2019-20 Passing Profile

 

[The New Russian Five]

It's called reality, bud. The only excuses being made here are by the folks mad at Quinn for being mean to Laff and Kakko.

Ok so you got no excuse for Gauthier looking like crap. Again, this wouldn't be such an issue if it was a player or 2 that has struggled, but its 4 top 10 players, 5 players in their first two years of playing if you count Gauthier. Three of those players seemed disillusioned about their role on the team before even joining.

Maybe, you're right. Maybe we just got the worst luck in the league and we just happened to draft 2 of the most underwhelming lottery picks in the last decade.

Again this wouldn't be an issue if it was 1 or 2 players struggling. But 5, all of whom had very high upsides all struggling under him? Come on man, you should be at least starting to question some things about how the team is being run...

 

[duhmetreE]

I don't really agree or think this is accurate but I will watch their breakouts more critically tonight. I'd add Strome and Zib to the list of players that carry the puck into the zone frequently. I'd also say that you most certainly do not want guys like Howden and Rooney carrying the puck into the zone, you want them dumping and chasing.

But you're telling me that Quinn's philosophy in the offensive zone is to play a perimeter game and to not find any soft spots? That's his system?

Watch how often we give up possession because there's no puck support. Plan A is usually chip/dump.

That's the further more nuanced point. I do not think Quinn plays to his players strengths or adapts.

The bottom6 should be playng a simple north/south game. Our high skill players should not... or at least to the extent it has been.

 

[duhmetreE]

This is unfortunately for the 2019-20 season, but nonetheless...

2019-20 Zone Entries
View attachment 400854

2019-20 Passing Profile
View attachment 400855

we're no where the same team unfortunately. I don't know if the pendelum was swayed too far to defense with Martin... but our offense style is buttcheeks. I'd like to know how these numbers are calculated.

Panarin could also have skewed those stats... He was godly at even-strength last year...

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

This is unfortunately for the 2019-20 season, but nonetheless...

2019-20 Zone Entries
View attachment 400854

2019-20 Passing Profile
View attachment 400855

So... not a dump and chase system. Basically the complete opposite of all the BS being thrown around the board recently?

 

[The New Russian Five]

This is unfortunately for the 2019-20 season, but nonetheless...

2019-20 Zone Entries
View attachment 400854

2019-20 Passing Profile
View attachment 400855

Does the high danger passing play include both completed and incomplete passes? That would make sense because they keep trying to force feed through the slot and get picked off. If that is only for completed passes, I would be shocked.

Anyhow considering Quinn keeps saying the team needs to shoot more and not try to be so cute with the puck, looks like the team is doing the exact opposite. Meaning they aren't buying into what he is saying.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I went from Laf at C facetiously to being so serious about it in the last 20 mins.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Ok so you got no excuse for Gauthier looking like crap. Again, this wouldn't be such an issue if it was a player or 2 that has struggled, but its 4 top 10 players, 5 players in their first two years of playing if you count Gauthier. Three of those players seemed disillusioned about their role on the team before even joining.

Maybe, you're right. Maybe we just got the worst luck in the league and we just happened to draft 2 of the most underwhelming lottery picks in the last decade.

Again this wouldn't be an issue if it was 1 or 2 players struggling. But 5, all of whom had very high upsides all struggling under him? Come on man, you should be at least starting to question some things about how the team is being run...

Gauthier???? C'mon man. He's a project who's played like less than 25 NHL games. Who are these four players you're talking about? Kravstov isn't even in North America. Right now of the three on the team, only Laff is struggling. Holy reach Batman.

 

[The New Russian Five]

So... not a dump and chase system. Basically the complete opposite of all the BS being thrown around the board recently?

More of a try to look for the perfect pass system and getting picked off nearly every time system.

Do we have a stat for rangers turnovers in the offensive zone somewhere? I think it would correlate very well here with that graph for the rangers.

 

[The New Russian Five]

Gauthier???? C'mon man. He's a project who's played like less than 25 NHL games. Who are these four players you're talking about? Kravstov isn't even in North America. Right now of the three on the team, only Laff is struggling. Holy reach Batman.

Kravtsov's 1 year in NA he struggled immensely and even f***ed with his game when he initially got back to Russia. He needed a whole offseason to bat away all the mind games that Quinn played him with.

Gauthier might be a project, but he was one of the best scorers in the AHL and he should be showing more to us given his physical tools than he has been.

Lias might be struggling in LA, but that's after 3 years of development under Quinn. He is what he is at this point.

Kakko might be looking better relative to last year, but still has underwhelming numbers. I have hopes for him, but that is in spite of how Quinn is using him.

Laf was one of the more hyped prospects of the last decade. Was supposed to be in the tier just below Matthews level. He is having one of the worst rookie seasons by a first overall in the last half century, especially if you compare hype to performance.

Do I think the players shouldn't be at least partially accountable? Of course I do, but I also think this is on the coach at this point.

At this point, if you think it is all the players fault, then maybe we should start looking to to trade these guys, because they are clearly all defected goods. Or if you think the coach is at least part to blame, maybe we should consider a coaching change, would could have a change of effect on all these players. Personally I think the changing of coach is much more of a low-risk, high reward play than trading the players.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Kravtsov's 1 year in NA he struggled immensely and even f***ed with his game when he initially got back to Russia. He needed a whole offseason to bat away all the mind games that Quinn played him with.

Gauthier might be a project, but he was one of the best scorers in the AHL and he should be showing more to us given his physical tools than he has been.

Lias might be struggling in LA, but that's after 3 years of development under Quinn. He is what he is at this point.

Kakko might be looking better relative to last year, but still has underwhelming numbers. I have hopes for him, but that is in spite of how Quinn is using him.

Laf was one of the more hyped prospects of the last decade. Was supposed to be in the tier just below Matthews level. He is having one of the worst rookie seasons by a first overall in the last half century, especially if you compare hype to performance.

Do I think the players shouldn't be at least partially accountable? Of course I do, but I also think this is on the coach at this point.

At this point, if you think it is all the players fault, then maybe we should start looking to to trade these guys, because they are clearly all defected goods. Or if you think the coach is at least part to blame, maybe we should consider a coaching change, would could have a change of effect on all these players. Personally I think the changing of coach is much more of a low-risk, high reward play than trading the players.

Or maybe just have some patience and keep your expectations reasonable?

 

[duhmetreE]

So... not a dump and chase system. Basically the complete opposite of all the BS being thrown around the board recently?

No, still a dump and chase system.

I'd like to see zone entries number from this year though and with/without Panarin. With Chytil etc. 1 graph doesn't tell an entire story as much as people would like it to. That graph is illustrating numbers. Those numbers can come about in many different scenarios. but its not debatable, our offense was muuuuch better last year

Using 2019-2020 offensive numbers would be the same as using 2019-2020 defensive numbers to prove our defense is bad.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Reasonable expectations here just means no expectations which is true enlightenment.

Reasonable expectations referring to expecting things based on historical precedent and empirical evidence is unfortunately all we trapped in samsara can muster, and it makes Lafreniere's season a very disappointing one with a potentially grim outlook.

 

[Off Sides]

Honestly my best guess, all the prospects probably should have played their D+1 season anywhere else but the NHL.

I know that will rankle some feathers, yet why would it not be plausible when only a select few 18-19 year old prospects are deemed NHL ready because they were drafted #1-#3 (or whatever) (which seems like a pretty arbitrary measurement) (I get for prospects drafted out of juniors it's either back there or NHL which bring it's own dilemma)

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

No, still a dump and chase system.

I'd like to see zone entries number from this year though and with/without Panarin. With Chytil etc. 1 graph doesn't tell an entire story as much as people would like it to. That graph is illustrating numbers. Those numbers can come about in many different scenarios. but its not debatable, our offense was muuuuch better last year

Using 2019-2020 offensive numbers would be the same as using 2019-2020 defensive numbers to prove our defense is bad.

Same coach, same offensive system as last year. You can talk in all the circles you want but someone just posted proof that your system complaint isn't accurate or based in reality.