Value of: Alex Turcotte

[AKL]

Not sure why the fighting about Turcotte / Boldy is still ongoing in this thread.

a non Kings fan nicely asked if we would trade Turcotte if we landed Byfield. Great and legit question to ask. Start of a great discussion.


Through out the thread it became hijacked with Boldy talk after Kings fans said they do not want Boldy. Numerous Kings fans have explained there is really no reason to trade Turcotte at this point as the Kings still have high hopes for him. The ones that said they may listen to a trade if it fit a position of need IE) upper pairing young Dman or top DMan prospect.

Boldy does not fit this. Newhook does not fit this. So why are we arguing about these players? Kings are not looking to trade for either.

As for the Kings we may take Stützle. So why trade a guy slotted to be our future 2nd line center until we know what we have.

also the kings are not expected to be good next year. Next years draft is loaded with top defense prospects. At this point I think the kings stand put and see what they have and let the kids develop

Boldy and Newhook are being talked about as examples of players in comparable situations that all parties involved in those discussions have watched.

Boldy was initially brought up because one Kings fan brought up the idea that he would trade Turcotte for a scoring winger.

No one is upset that the Kings fans want to keep Turcotte and no one is upset that they wouldn't trade him for Boldy. Stop trying to summarize the entire thread if you don't understand what's going on.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

The last two decades I don’t think there are many highly drafted Cs from college, so to look for a current 1C with less than a PPG in his D+1 season is quite slim.

Not anywhere either Boldy or Podkolzin were in the mix for top 5 in the weeks before the draft.

Top 5 may have been a minority for Boldy, but he and Podkolzin certainly were in the top 5 on several lists, and Podkolzin was in the top 5 on many lists. It’s not like even said that either, though. They both were pretty solidly in the 3-9 range on mocks leading up to the draft.

 

[AKL]

Because that draft was one year ago..that is why.

Factually incorrect you say ? Please dont go that route. Not anywhere a scouting service has listed Boldy as a top 5 pick. I am not 100% sure about Podkolzin because he was highly touted at the beginning of the 2018/2019 season.

Yeah, and one year after, actually immediately after the draft had taken place, draft spot stopped mattering in regards to who is going to be the best player. In fact, draft spot barely mattered before the draft. If draft spot determined the best players, everyone would have the same exact list, and you wouldn't have players like Pastrnak, Kucherov, etc fall.

Craig Button had Boldy 5th in June 2019. Future Considerations had Podkolzin 4th in June. If you expand it to include 6th-7th, far more lists would have made the cut. The point is, these are not consensus 10th-12th best players, they were far more often ranked 4-9th, and very likely fell due to being wingers in a draft that was heavy on centers and defensemen.

I can actually very confidently tell you that the Wild were not expecting to get Boldy at 12th, and he was considered very likely to go in the top 9.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Depends on what "scouting service" means.

Boldy was 5th by Button/TSN, 7th by ISS.

 

[funky]

Boldy and Newhook are being talked about as examples of players in comparable situations that all parties involved in those discussions have watched.

Boldy was initially brought up because one Kings fan brought up the idea that he would trade Turcotte for a scoring winger.

No one is upset that the Kings fans want to keep Turcotte and no one is upset that they wouldn't trade him for Boldy. Stop trying to summarize the entire thread if you don't understand what's going on.

read the entire thread. See you keep fighting everyone and preaching abound Boldy. Just see no need for his name to be brought up any further. If LA wanted him they would have drafted him.

And yes I would love Boldy on the Kings but LA needs to see what they have in prospects before they trade them. I am still high on Turcotte and think he will make a perfect 2nd line center in L.A.

 

[AKL]

read the entire thread. See you keep fighting everyone and preaching abound Boldy. Just see no need for his name to be brought up any further. If LA wanted him they would have drafted him.

And yes I would love Boldy on the Kings but LA needs to see what they have in prospects before they trade them. I am still high on Turcotte and think he will make a perfect 2nd line center in L.A.

No one is preaching about Boldy. Explaining to you why his name is being brought up is not preaching.

But if someone (Frolov 6'3) is going to sit here and try to tell me he wasn't anywhere near the top 5 on any lists at any point? Yeah, that's incorrect and I'm going to say something.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

read the entire thread. See you keep fighting everyone and preaching abound Boldy. Just see no need for his name to be brought up any further. If LA wanted him they would have drafted him.

And yes I would love Boldy on the Kings but LA needs to see what they have in prospects before they trade them. I am still high on Turcotte and think he will make a perfect 2nd line center in L.A.

So I was the one that initially brought Boldy up. I may have mistakenly taken LW as an organizational weakness for LA, as I did not see too many recent high-ish picks at that position. The idea was that, in a vacuum, the "value" would be a relatively equally regarded prospect at said position of weakness. LA fans seem content to just play it out and move guys over if necessary, which is fine. I tend to think that it's not always really easy to do so, even center-to-wing, but I might be off on that.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Wow, never been so thankful there are not more Wild fans on this board. This thread is worthless thanks to them.

You guys want to wait and see and then move positions if necessary. Apparently it was worthless from the get go.

 

[kingpest19]

You’re trying to say things about Newhooks season as if you know what you’re talking about, but @AKL and myself followed BC like we were diehard fans this year. Newhook spent most of the year on the 3rd line, and all of the year on the 2nd power play unit. Every top-opportunity was given to the Cotton-Matila-Hutsko line. Even when Boldy was in a huge funk, he was centering the 2nd line while newhook was centering the 3rd line. It wasn’t until Boldy-Newhook-Hardman got put together that Newhook was getting “2nd line” minutes. Newhooks season was the most impressive of any college freshman this year. You think Being fed top PP mins and top line mins the whole year on a very thin team was anything but an advantage to Caufield and Turcotte? I don’t have anything against Turcotte whatsoever. I’d love if he was a wild prospect, I just think he got drafted higher than he should have and people overrate him as a prospect because of this. I know you love to use historical context when evaluating players because you’re always talking about how Rossi won’t be a top 6 C because nobody in the NHL is a top 6 C at that height. So, why don’t you do some research for me here: how many 1Cs in the NHL were under a point per game in college hockey in their D+1? I think Turcotte will be a very good 2C who drives play at both ends of the ice, but I think people are setting their expectations a bit high for the kid.

How many missed 7 games due to injury and illness? How many played hurt causing their ppg to drop under 1?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

How many missed 7 games due to injury and illness? How many played hurt causing their ppg to drop under 1?

How many hockey players play hurt? Probably a lot more than we know.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Yeah, and one year after, immediately after the draft had taken place, draft spot stopped mattering in regards to who is going to be the best player. In fact, draft spot barely mattered before the draft. If draft spot determined the best players, everyone would have the same exact list, and you wouldn't have players like Pastrnak, Kucherov, etc fall.

Dude please, who will turn out to be better was not the start of the conversation. That is something nobody knows and not that point. Now you start a new discussion.

You were butthurt because somebody said that the gap was huge. Considering the fact the draft was barely one year ago and that Turcotte was a top 5 pick all along and Boldy never, you should not be surprised about this simple formula.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

What are you looking for man? Are you looking for me to say something like this:

Or maybe something like this:

Or maybe something like this:

Or are you just in here throwing a tantrum at there mere thought that someone else could not think Turcotte is a bulletproof franchise center? What are you looking for?

When you contradict yourself by suggesting there's more context, then proceed to ignore that context, you're just invalidating your own opinion to devalue Turcotte.

Again, bad faith discussion, and the reason you're being pissy with everyone is you're being called out on it.

You run into an asshole in the morning...too bad, you ran into an asshole. You run into assholes all day, then it's you.

No one is suggesting Turcotte is a bulletproof franchise center and ultimately the conclusion is that he's going to be a strong top-sixer so all the roundabout pissing in the wind about which prospect projects better doesn't matter since we're all in agreement there's no real point in moving him right this moment. But when you spend pages denigrating Turcotte's performance while exalting others, you're coming off as a used car salesman.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

How many missed 7 games due to injury and illness? How many played hurt causing their ppg to drop under 1?

People keep bringing this up like wild fans aren’t aware of the context. I know he was injured this year. Hockey players get injured. It’s not unique. I know he played at a ppg for stretches of the year. I think he’s a very good prospect. I’m just not of the belief that he’s the home-run 1C that some people do. I didn’t even mean to start an argument about this, either Liz I was just stating why I’m not super intrigued by Turcotte at the price he’d likely cost which is Boldy+. Vilardi, on the other hand, I would move a lot for. His injuries still worry me, but he looked dominant at times to me throughout the year and he’s, in my opinion, much more capable than Turcotte of stepping into a top 6 role soon.

 

[AKL]

When you contradict yourself by suggesting there's more context, then proceed to ignore that context, you're just invalidating your own opinion to devalue Turcotte.

Again, bad faith discussion, and the reason you're being pissy with everyone is you're being called out on it.

You run into an asshole in the morning...too bad, you ran into an asshole. You run into assholes all day, then it's you.

No one is suggesting Turcotte is a bulletproof franchise center and ultimately the conclusion is that he's going to be a strong top-sixer so all the roundabout pissing in the wind about which prospect projects better doesn't matter since we're all in agreement there's no real point in moving him right this moment. But when you spend pages denigrating Turcotte's performance while exalting others, you're coming off as a used car salesman.

You're an absolute f***ing walnut

You should have just been done with it like you said you were.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

So I was the one that initially brought Boldy up. I may have mistakenly taken LW as an organizational weakness for LA, as I did not see too many recent high-ish picks at that position. The idea was that, in a vacuum, the "value" would be a relatively equally regarded prospect at said position of weakness. LA fans seem content to just play it out and move guys over if necessary, which is fine. I tend to think that it's not always really easy to do so, even center-to-wing, but I might be off on that.

LA has always been a build out from the middle team. I agree that it's not always so easy to just move guys to W and that's historically been a position of weakness for us even during cup years. THe only natural wings we have that project as even middle sixers really are Fagemo, Kaliyev, Grundstrom, maybe Shafigullin. But with 10 more picks this draft, that should be solve-able, and some of the guys we currently have as higher end prospects--especially Vilardi--are good no matter where they are. I can't imagine moving Turcotte for a wing almost no matter what, though, when we have yet to try the internal options. That seems like a two-to-three year down the road team finishing move once the C, D, G pieces are in place (arguably D is a bigger issue than W).

 

[Odie Cleghorn]

Id gladly take Vilardi off your hands if that is the case. Wild would welcome a right handed C with open arms. which do you need more D or W? we got both

I wouldn't touch Vilardi. Hardly played for 4 years because of back problems. I can't understand how he can even play now.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

People keep bringing this up like wild fans aren’t aware of the context. I know he was injured this year. Hockey players get injured. It’s not unique. I know he played at a ppg for stretches of the year. I think he’s a very good prospect. I’m just not of the belief that he’s the home-run 1C that some people do. I didn’t even mean to start an argument about this, either Liz I was just stating why I’m not super intrigued by Turcotte at the price he’d likely cost which is Boldy+. Vilardi, on the other hand, I would move a lot for. His injuries still worry me, but he looked dominant at times to me throughout the year and he’s, in my opinion, much more capable than Turcotte of stepping into a top 6 role soon.

Which is understandable. I think most of what Kings fans are saying is they also wouldn't do the opposite for Boldy +. It doesn't really solve anything for either team.

And I think Vilardi of course has the higher ceiling AND is at least slightly more proven, which is arguably the bigger issue with Turcotte right now--big ceiling, but who is he? I get being cautious about that.

You're an absolute f***ing walnut

You should have just been done with it like you said you were.

Feel free to step outside while the grownups are talking, everyone seems to be able to handle themselves but you.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

LA has always been a build out from the middle team. I agree that it's not always so easy to just move guys to W and that's historically been a position of weakness for us even during cup years. THe only natural wings we have that project as even middle sixers really are Fagemo, Kaliyev, Grundstrom, maybe Shafigullin. But with 10 more picks this draft, that should be solve-able, and some of the guys we currently have as higher end prospects--especially Vilardi--are good no matter where they are. I can't imagine moving Turcotte for a wing almost no matter what, though, when we have yet to try the internal options. That seems like a two-to-three year down the road team finishing move once the C, D, G pieces are in place (arguably D is a bigger issue than W).

So, just for clarity, the original "value statement" wasn't just a wing, it was a wing and RD (also fairly highly regarded) in Calen Addison. But I get the viewpoint.

 

[kingpest19]

How many hockey players play hurt? Probably a lot more than we know.

Not denying that. How many at the NHL level play at a ppg playing through one that ends up costing them to miss almost a month of play?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

So, just for clarity, the original "value statement" wasn't just a wing, it was a wing and RD (also fairly highly regarded) in Calen Addison. But I get the viewpoint.

Right, didn't mean to leave him out. I really like Addison too. I guess the point is more that it's not that that value isn't there, because in a vacuum discounting team situations I'd be far more open to it, and that's maybe the cause of all the beef--they're all highly touted talented players.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

But if someone (Frolov 6'3) is going to sit here and try to tell me he wasn't anywhere near the top 5 on any lists at any point? Yeah, that's incorrect and I'm going to say something.

Going to sit here and try to tell you that Turcotte was seen as the better prospect by almost anyone...

That is so outrageous because Craig Button of all sakes thought otherwise ?

Please...

 

[AKL]

Feel free to step outside while the grownups are talking, everyone seems to be able to handle themselves but you.

You threw a temper tantrum because I said Turcotte is one of the top center prospects in the league, would love to overpay for him, but made one off-hand remark about how his season was average relative to expectations, *statistically*, but then followed it up by saying that by no means does it detract from his value as a player and a prospect.

Then, I said Boldy is in the same boat as Turcotte, as a player you had hoped for more from, *statistically*, going into the season, but whose teams should be happy with the players they have, and somehow I'm spending pages denigrating Turcotte while heaping praise on Boldy? This is insane, I explicitly said earlier in this thread I like Turcotte better than Boldy.

 

[AKL]

Going to sit here and try to tell you that Turcotte was seen as the better prospect by almost anyone...

That is so outrageous because Craig Button of all sakes thought otherwise ?

Please...

Speaking of moving the goalposts...

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Right, didn't mean to leave him out. I really like Addison too. I guess the point is more that it's not that that value isn't there, because in a vacuum discounting team situations I'd be far more open to it, and that's maybe the cause of all the beef--they're all highly touted talented players.

Yeah, we're all nitpicking guys that could easily be thought of as top 10 talents.

 

[KingsofLA]

I doubt LA trades Turcotte for a winger. LA is known for drafting centers or dmen in the 1st round. As a matter of fact, 9 of the last 10 1st rounders were either Centers or Dmen (2012 Tanner Pearson was the last winger to be drafted). The philosophy is the cost to acquire either of the two position (most of the time) requires an over payment.