Rumor: Alex Pietrangelo discussion #2- Will it happen?

[TheScandal89]

Something I think is food for thought if we sign him, we still have the potential to fill out some spots at trade deadline for a fraction of the cost.

Of course, you don't wanna ruin team chemistry but theres a decent selection of forwards and defenders.

Ex. Engvall + 3rd for Bonino (50% Ret)

Right now Bonino carries a cap hit of 4.1. By deadline it'll be at about half and if they retain 50% his cap hit will essentially be the same as Engvall

 

[Wafflewhipper]

It would definitely require moves next year and the year after to make work, but it's doable if Pietrangelo comes in at a reasonable cost, and it would fill our biggest weakness. All of the pieces at risk of being lost are replaceable with good team management, but you don't just go find a Pietrangelo.

True the quality he brings is immense. I really get that. The cause and effect is going to be immense also. There is so much going on if he signs that it’s daunting to figure how to work the remaining roster structure. It’ll remain like that entirely every year as long as we still have 5 players taking up about approximately 60% of the cap. Muzzy,Rielly and Freddy currently take up approximately 20%.
Thats 8 good players but holy f*** filling out the roster with 15 players and slightly over 20% of cap space left is voodoo.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

So the anti AP is already happening. I predicted it will happen after he signed.

I was anti A.P from the get go. Now I’m kind of whatever but it will be unimaginable and mind boggling trying to construct the rest of the roster with so much cap space to five pkayers. It seems only slightly possible

 

[seanlinden]

Still really gonna hogtie the balance of the salary cap structure on the rest of the roster. Robertson,Dermott,Rielly,Mikheyev etc. If Barabanov,Lehtonen play well at $925,000 how do you re-up them. Potentially having to arrange trades for Andersen,Kerfoot,Johnsson. Hyman will be needing more money etc.
It will take one year and the headaches start. Morgan Rielly’s contract in two becomes a nightmare. Might as well just trade him right away. Thats sideways. This will cause so much upheaval. That said, we don’t need a $10,000,000 third line and all go far as i view it. Still tough cap decisions are are forced. Trading Andersen being seen as a collateral to signing him and accepted is flawed unless a equal quality tender is coming back in the trade. Kuemper for example. Still that only pushes the cap problems down the road a extra year etc. This could get ugly

This.

If we look at this year alone, you can fit AP in without too many issues.

With all of the economic impacts of COVID, a lot of teams are simply not going to sign / pay guys unless they absolutely have to, or if it's in the long term interest of the team. You're going to see more youth up this year, simply because if you're spending money, it might as well be on somebody that can help you longer term.

The amount of depth talent that's going to be available on the UFA/RFA market, who are willing to take less money in exchange for getting a guaranteed 1-way contract, early in free agency this year, and maybe a $200k signing bonus (knowing that there's a good chance salaries could get prorated) is going to be a lot more than it is in usual years. This year, I do believe there is a great opportunity to fill out the bottom of a roster for super-cheap.

The problem comes over the next 2 offseasons, where it's unlikely that the cap rises, but economics do improve. This will create a situation where there is lots of league-wide cap and budget space available (because of what teams did this year), and the mid-level guys will begin to get paid again.

You might sneak by next offseason because you don't have to deal with Sandin or Rielly, but in 2 offseasons, you've got a pretty substantial issue.


Remember, the Tavares, Matthews, and Marner deals were all signed in anticipation of a soaring cap with a new TV deal. That soaring cap is no longer a reality, and when you consider that Matthews only has 4 years left, and that Tavares is now 30, that runway may not be long enough. Yes -- the flat cap affects everyone -- but it does not affect everyone equally. There are 13 players in the league who make $10m or more. The Leafs have 3 of them.


Only 4 of these contracts belong to players under the age of 25 (McDavid, Matthews, Marner, Eichel) -- and the Leafs have the shortest deals of the bunch. With the economic challenges, this is probably going to "undo the damage" that Dubas did to the RFA market last year... so it's doubtful that too many players join this club.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I’m not going to quote all of people who have said we can’t afford him and to sign two inferior players or trade for other guys instead. Why? You obtain the elite asset and you shuffle around the other stuff to make it all fit.
If you gotta move 2/3 between AJ Kerfoot and Ander5en you do it and you deal with having to move bigger deals later to make who need to fit in.
All I can think of when other posters here discuss getting a combo of this years mixed bag of second tier ufas is when Boston signed Chara and we got Kubina and Hal Gill

 

[seanlinden]

I’m not going to quote all of people who have said we can’t afford him and to sign two inferior players or trade for other guys instead. Why? You obtain the elite asset and you shuffle around the other stuff to make it all fit.
If you gotta move 2/3 between AJ Kerfoot and Ander5en you do it and you deal with having to move bigger deals later to make who need to fit in.
All I can think of when other posters here discuss getting a combo of this years mixed bag of second tier ufas is when Boston signed Chara and we got Kubina and Hal Gill

So do we follow this approach to the point where every player must make either over $5m or under $1m? Where do you draw the line at "too top heavy?"

 

[Stephen]

He is not free.........if there were no cap, he would be free or if the team had enough cap space he'd be free(er)

There is no way to add this player without somehow getting rid of players in order to pay his contract, that is not free.

Anyway, hopefully Kid Kyle has a decent plan this time if they sign him.

He is free in the sense that you're not trading the literal value of a Pietrangelo to get Pietrangelo, as opposed to clearing the cap space needed to get him.

Which is actually great, because whomever you move, whether it was Kapanen as the first step, or Johnsson and Kerfoot as step two, or eventually Nylander or Marner in step three, in most cases you're also getting a trade return for what you traded away. So the net in and out looks like Pietrangelo plus the traded return for those players you had to move out. You're getting better on the ice and if you're trading futures, padding up the organization with more assets to do other improvements.

 

[Gabriel426]

I was anti A.P from the get go. Now I’m kind of whatever but it will be unimaginable and mind boggling trying to construct the rest of the roster with so much cap space to five pkayers. It seems only slightly possible

I agree with your points but at the same time, AP literally checked all the boxes for the Leafs. I am all for signing two Hainsy(when he first came) over AP but are there two Hanisy on the market?
Leafs is in an interesting position where the team is in Win Now mode but at the same time, their window is long as long as they can resign AM and others.

 

[Nylanderthal]

So do we follow this approach to the point where every player must make either over $5m or under $1m? Where do you draw the line at "too top heavy?"

Personally guys in the mushy middle are often the ones who provide the worst value to a team so to avoid those kinds of commitments seems like a reasonable thing. Obviously you can’t have every guy on the roster either on an elc or league minimum but if you can make it fit this year by just moving on from middling guys like AJ and Andy then you do it. Next year Hyman is up but I mean if you ask me would I rather sign petro and see Hyman walk or not babe petro and probably overpay Hyman I know what way I’m going. In two seasons when Reilly is due for a raise (also the year the cap begins going up that season I believe) so you hope that his raise is covered by that or you move a guy like Holl or Muzzin to accommodate Reilly.
I guess my point is plans are fluid and you can’t lock yourself out of nabbing elite talent (especially at what will be a comparative discount at a serious position of need) because you’re afraid of not being able to afford guys who would fall behind AP in the organization depth chart

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I’m not going to quote all of people who have said we can’t afford him and to sign two inferior players or trade for other guys instead. Why? You obtain the elite asset and you shuffle around the other stuff to make it all fit.
If you gotta move 2/3 between AJ Kerfoot and Ander5en you do it and you deal with having to move bigger deals later to make who need to fit in.
All I can think of when other posters here discuss getting a combo of this years mixed bag of second tier ufas is when Boston signed Chara and we got Kubina and Hal Gill

We could sign Dillon for a reasonable amount for defense and character and toughness. He’s a 20 minute dman and a need for grit. He’s a really good fit. Trading works and dubas has scoring forwards with value to fill out the defense and the insanity of trading Andersen could disappear.
This is crazy.

 

[Nylanderthal]

We could sign Dillon for a reasonable amount for defense and character and toughness. He’s a 20 minute dman and a need for grit. He’s a really good fit. Trading works and dubas has scoring forwards with value to fill out the defense and the insanity of trading Andersen could disappear.
This is crazy.

Gross. That reeks of kubina and Gill. We need a top pairing RHD not just a body on the right side. Petro checks all the boxes, go get him.
The way I look at it would you trade petro + what you’d get for the subsequent moves (probably a couple 2nds and or some “B” prospects) for Dillon and AJ/Kerf + Andy?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Jeezus I can’t wait for the draft to get here. Reading the direction some posters want to see this team go is frightening. Talk to you all again duringbthe draft

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Gross. That reeks of kubina and Gill. We need a top pairing RHD not just a body on the right side. Petro checks all the boxes, go get him.

He’s not even a right. He is a left side. You don’t even know what side he plays

 

[Nylanderthal]

He’s not even a right. He is a left side. You don’t even know what side he plays

What are you talking about? AP is a RHD... put the bottle down
Edit: I’m assuming you mean Dillon. With Rielly Muzzin Sandin Lehtonen Dermott why on earth are we committing more cap to a position we’re relatively deep at?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Gross. That reeks of kubina and Gill. We need a top pairing RHD not just a body on the right side. Petro checks all the boxes, go get him.
The way I look at it would you trade petro + what you’d get for the subsequent moves (probably a couple 2nds and or some “B” prospects) for Dillon and AJ/Kerf + Andy?

He’s not even a right. He is a left side. You don’t even know what side he plays

What are you talking about? AP is a RHD... put the bottle down

Thats what i mean. See where you called him a body on the right side thete. Thats what. You don’t even know what side he plays and shoot off hes no good. Go away

 

[LilySmoov]

I know no one wants to subtract from our core, but I really don't see how trading Nylander/Marner isn't the obvious play if we sign Pietrangelo. Simply saying "just move AJ/Kerfoot/Andy" seems quite myopic. We'd still need a, at least, 1A goalie to platoon with Campbell, and our bottom 6 would be decimated. I don't think it's feasible to rely on a bottom 6 comprised heavily, if not entirely, of some combination of league minimum journeymen, rookies, and KHLers, and 2 non-established goalies.

 

[seanlinden]

Personally guys in the mushy middle are often the ones who provide the worst value to a team so to avoid those kinds of commitments seems like a reasonable thing. Obviously you can’t have every guy on the roster either on an elc or league minimum but if you can make it fit this year by just moving on from middling guys like AJ and Andy then you do it. Next year Hyman is up but I mean if you ask me would I rather sign petro and see Hyman walk or not babe petro and probably overpay Hyman I know what way I’m going. In two seasons when Reilly is due for a raise (also the year the cap begins going up that season I believe) so you hope that his raise is covered by that or you move a guy like Holl or Muzzin to accommodate Reilly.
I guess my point is plans are fluid and you can’t lock yourself out of nabbing elite talent (especially at what will be a comparative discount at a serious position of need) because you’re afraid of not being able to afford guys who would fall behind AP in the organization depth chart

Look at Tampa Bay -- they are within 1 win of the Stanley Cup, and their 2nd highest paid player has played 1 game in the playoffs. They had/have 4 skaters making between $4.4 and $5.3m.

Dallas has a bunch of guys between $2m and $6m.

You need depth to win in the playoffs... and it's more than the depth you get from a guy on an ELC or some veteran looking to stick around the league for league minimum.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Look at Tampa Bay -- they are within 1 win of the Stanley Cup, and their 2nd highest paid player has played 1 game in the playoffs. They had/have 4 skaters making between $4.4 and $5.3m.

Dallas has a bunch of guys between $2m and $6m.

You need depth to win in the playoffs... and it's more than the depth you get from a guy on an ELC or some veteran looking to stick around the league for league minimum.

This season five Leafs forwards (11, 16, 34, 88, 91) played more 5v5 minutes per game than any forward on Tampa or Dallas.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Look at Tampa Bay -- they are within 1 win of the Stanley Cup, and their 2nd highest paid player has played 1 game in the playoffs. They had/have 4 skaters making between $4.4 and $5.3m.

Dallas has a bunch of guys between $2m and $6m.

You need depth to win in the playoffs... and it's more than the depth you get from a guy on an ELC or some veteran looking to stick around the league for league minimum.

No vets looking to stick around like Perry/Pavaelski or no ELCs like Kiviranta or Heiskanen or Shea you say...

Leafs should be fine with filling roles when their mid level players get too expensive, replacing them with ELCs who are ready to go like Robertson or Barabanov or Korshkov (not all at once).

 

[seanlinden]

No vets looking to stick around like Perry/Pavaelski or no ELCs like Kiviranta or Heiskanen or Shea you say...

You need everything.

Pavelski makes $7m and Perry $1.5m.

But yes, you most certainly do need a little bit of everything.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Look at Tampa Bay -- they are within 1 win of the Stanley Cup, and their 2nd highest paid player has played 1 game in the playoffs. They had/have 4 skaters making between $4.4 and $5.3m.

Dallas has a bunch of guys between $2m and $6m.

You need depth to win in the playoffs... and it's more than the depth you get from a guy on an ELC or some veteran looking to stick around the league for league minimum.

If we sign AP and move the required mid tier guys to make it fit you still have Hyman one of kerfoot/AJ Rielly holl Muzzin and probably Dermott and Soup x2 plus Andersen’s replacement all in the 1.5-5.5 pay range. That’s a solid chunk of the roster still imo

 

[A1LeafNation]

Pavelski makes $7m and Perry $1.5m.

But yes, you most certainly do need a little bit of everything.

Leafs should be fine with filling roles when their mid level players get too expensive, replacing them with ELCs who are ready to go like Robertson or Barabanov or Korshkov (not all at once).

 

[Stephen]

I know no one wants to subtract from our core, but I really don't see how trading Nylander/Marner isn't the obvious play if we sign Pietrangelo. Simply saying "just move AJ/Kerfoot/Andy" seems quite myopic. We'd still need a, at least, 1A goalie to platoon with Campbell, and our bottom 6 would be decimated. I don't think it's feasible to rely on a bottom 6 comprised heavily, if not entirely, of some combination of league minimum journeymen, rookies, and KHLers, and 2 non-established goalies.

I think signing Pietrangelo sets up a Marner or Nylander exit, but it doesn't have to happen right away.

 

[seanlinden]

Leafs should be fine with filling roles when their mid level players get too expensive, replacing them with ELCs who are ready to go like Robertson or Barabanov or Korshkov (not all at once).

This year, maybe.... after that it gets very problematic.

This season five Leafs forwards (11, 16, 34, 88, 91) played more 5v5 minutes per game than any forward on Tampa or Dallas.

Interesting... especially considering that the Leafs had depth (KK, AJ, and Kerfoot) this year.

If we sign AP and move the required mid tier guys to make it fit you still have Hyman one of kerfoot/AJ Rielly holl Muzzin and probably Dermott and Soup x2 plus Andersen’s replacement all in the 1.5-5.5 pay range. That’s a solid chunk of the roster still imo

You'd have Hyman, Muzzin & Holl. The rest are going to have to be very cheap, and you're probably looking at losing both AJ and Kerfoot to fit AP.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I think signing Pietrangelo sets up a Marner or Nylander exit, but it doesn't have to happen right away.

Definitely not this upcoming season and probably not the season after too unless management decides that the mix up front simply won’t get the job done, but you can easily kick that can down the road and there are worse problems to have than the one where you have too many good players and have to move one.