Traded Alex DeBrincat (signs 4 years, $7.875M AAV) for Dominik Kubalik, Donovan Sebrango, cond. 2024 or 2025 1st (DET or BOS), 2024 4th

[Tuna99]

Muckler was awful at trades.

Have you reviewed the Dany Heatley, Jason Spezza trades recently. Losing Alfie.

C’mon - are we actually shitting on the GM that got us to the finals and had the best teams Ottawas ever iced.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Have you reviewed the Dany Heatley, Jason Spezza trades recently. Losing Alfie.

C’mon - are we actually shitting on the GM that got us to the finals and had the best teams Ottawas ever iced.

Muckler better than Dorion.

But he was also given a core of Alfie Hossa and chara and immediately broke it up and we went from contenders to shit in 3 years after he lost chara. Hossa and chara also continued to be league best for another DECADE. He inherited a great squad. And then made the moves that would eventually hinder us for YEARS

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

This trade could have been semi-defensible IF Dorion had put his foot down and avoided all of those conditions being put on the first coming back. My God he was a terrible negotiator - Detroit really wanted DeBrincat, and he really wanted to go there. If Dorion had held firm he could have gotten that first in 2024 or 2025 without conditions. Now, we have essentially swapped a seventh overall to Chicago, where they grabbed a good young defenceman in Korchinski, for a late first that amounts to a lottery ticket. I never want to see that clown in the CTC ever again - he should be banned from the press box when he tries to enter as a scout for an opposing team in future years.

He seemed to back himself in to low leverage situations with every big trade he had to make.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Stutzle asleep. Forsberg back to forsberg

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Have you reviewed the Dany Heatley, Jason Spezza trades recently. Losing Alfie.

C’mon - are we actually shitting on the GM that got us to the finals and had the best teams Ottawas ever iced.

I think they all kind of sucked after Marshall Johnston.

Muckler inherited a great team, including the entire core and coach, and was not a great tinkerer. He left a lot of opportunity on the table with lame acquisitions like Tyler Arnason and endless draft capital blown on russians. Plus being in charge during the Chara/Redden scenario with Chara leaving. I liked his Corvo signing, the Schaeffer for Salo deal, and the Comrie deal off the top of my head. He did exude confidence though, which was basically the opposite of Dorion.

Murray was a great person, but not an amazing GM either. Hot and cold imo. I really liked the deadline he added Cullen and Sutton. He also did a good job keeping the band together with re-signings even though it didn't work out. Can't help but assume Melnyk is more likely to blame for the Alfie situation just given everything else that transpired with Melnyk. In hindsight, Murray obviously did a good job managing Melnyk's issues. Great with the media too, which is again basically the opposite of Dorion.

Dorion is clearly the worst of the 3 though. He started off by trading up for Logan Brown and giving away his #1 center of the future, then he finished it off with undying loyalty to an eventually mercy fired coach and the worst UFA contract ever given out in Ottawa. All kinds of chaos in between, including a refusal to dance with the media. Then he got himself fired in egregious fashion. Some nice contract signings and the Karlsson trade practically saving the rebuild would be his "legacy", if there were one.

 

[Xspyrit]

muckler had a Cup Finals roster everyone favourite coach in charge and won multiple Cups. Comparing Dorion and Muckler is like comparing Daniel Alfredsson and Ryan Shannon

Only talking about Muckler in Ottawa, The 6 drafts under Muckler ended up putting us in a precarious situation and Murray had to revamp the whole scouting department

Disagree with the Alfredsson and Shannon comparison... More like Colin Greening and Cedric Paquette

Muckler couldn’t draft or trade. I’ll take Hossa and Chara over Heatley and Redden every time. He was given a SC contender and never made a good deadline trade, left the prospect cupboard more barren than Dorion. He was equally bad or worse than Dorion.

Agree but hard to say which one was worse. Muckler started with a better situation so couldn't do as much damage, although he did it through inexistant drafting efficiency

 

[Golden_Jet]

Have you reviewed the Dany Heatley, Jason Spezza trades recently. Losing Alfie.

C’mon - are we actually shitting on the GM that got us to the finals and had the best teams Ottawas ever iced.

I wanted to keep Hossa, still do.

 

[Tuna99]

Muckler better than Dorion.

But he was also given a core of Alfie Hossa and chara and immediately broke it up and we went from contenders to shit in 3 years after he lost chara. Hossa and chara also continued to be league best for another DECADE. He inherited a great squad. And then made the moves that would eventually hinder us for YEARS

Really. I see this as a bad evaluation.


Bryan Murray took over with the promise to make the trades Muckler didn’t make - Murray couldn’t hire a competent coach or management team, Heatkey Left town, Soezza left town, Alfie left town, EK a left town, Duchesne etc and the list goes on and on.

How can anyone say Muckler was a bad GM compared to everyone else this team has had.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Really. I see this as a bad evaluation.


Bryan Murray took over with the promise to make the trades Muckler didn’t make - Murray couldn’t hire a competent coach or management team, Heatkey Left town, Soezza left town, Alfie left town, EK a left town, Duchesne etc and the list goes on and on.

How can anyone say Muckler was a bad GM compared to everyone else this team has had.

I said Muckler was better than Dorion. But like Muckler also didn’t have to do much. He was handed a juggernaut. And it was good for a couple years and then…due to losing his two best players. One traded and one given away to free agency. our window quickly shut. Chara and Hossa through their primes would have kept our window open for another decade

 

[Samsquanch]

Really. I see this as a bad evaluation.


Bryan Murray took over with the promise to make the trades Muckler didn’t make - Murray couldn’t hire a competent coach or management team, Heatkey Left town, Soezza left town, Alfie left town, EK a left town, Duchesne etc and the list goes on and on.

How can anyone say Muckler was a bad GM compared to everyone else this team has had.

Muckler is directly responsible for us losing out on Hossa, Chara and Kopitar. He traded Havlat for garbage.

There is no amount of good things he could have done to offset how bad that is in retrospect. That's the difference between being a potential dynasty, and what we got instead for the next decade.

 

[Tuna99]

There is no amount of good things he could have done to offset how bad that is in retrospect. That's the difference between being a potential dynasty, and what we got instead for the next decade.

And where does Bryan Murray fit into your evaluation if you’re talking about bad trades and lost potential?

 

[Samsquanch]

And where does Bryan Murray fit into your evaluation if you’re talking about bad trades and lost potential?

Murray had to deal with Melnyk going broke and nuts during his tenure, and definitely realized this team needed to shift its focus and resources towards drafting and development to compete. And he was successful at doing that.

He made several mistakes of his own, no doubt. But if we consider what they both had to work with, Murray ranks above Muckler for me.

Murray also brought a level of class and pride to the organization that was lacking before imo. And he put on a masterclass in keeping crazy Melnyk and his shoestring budget out of the public eye (as best anyone could).

 

[umma gumma]

And where does Bryan Murray fit into your evaluation if you’re talking about bad trades and lost potential?

Bryan Murray inherited a team with nothing on the farm, completely devoid of prospects. He also had to deal with Melnyk and his penny pinching ways. He did stabilize the goalie position for years bringing in Anderson, and Karlsson and Stone were drafted while he was here.

 

[Xspyrit]

Have you reviewed the Dany Heatley, Jason Spezza trades recently. Losing Alfie.

C’mon - are we actually shitting on the GM that got us to the finals and had the best teams Ottawas ever iced.

What Muckler started with (2001-02) :

Daniel Alfredsson (29)
Marián Hossa (23)
Martin Havlat (20)
Radek Bonk (26)
Todd White (26)
Mike Fisher (21)
Chris Neil (22)
Magnus Arvedson (30)
Shawn McEachern (32)
André Roy (26)
---
Zdeno Chára (24)
Wade Redden (24)
Chris Phillips (23)
Sami Salo (27)
Karel Rachůnek (22)
Patrick Lalime (27)

Prospects : Jason Spezza, Anton Volchenkov, Tim Gleason, Antoine Vermette, Brooks Laich, Greg Zanon,
Chris Kelly, Ray Emery, Christoph Schubert, Brandon Bochenski

What Muckler finished with (2006-07) :

Daniel Alfredsson (34)
Jason Spezza (23)
Dany Heatley (26)
Antoine Vermette (24)
Mike Fisher (26)
Chris Kelly (26)
Chris Neil (27)
Mike Comrie (26)
Peter Schaefer (29)
Patrick Eaves (22)
---
Wade Redden (29)
Chris Phillips (28)
Anton Volchenkov (24)
Joe Corvo (29)
Andrej Meszároš (21)
Ray Emery (24)

Prospects : Nick Foligno, Peter Regin, Brian Elliott, Erik Condra, Eric Gryba, Colin Greening, Brian Lee


1- Compare the prospect pool... It's normal that the pool became weaker as we were contending but how come the roster became much weaker?

2- yes the team made the SCF in 2007 but compare the pool of players between the beginning and the end of Muckler's era... All of Alfie, Spezza, Vermette, Fisher, Kelly, Neil, Redden, Phillips, Volchenkov and Emery were already in the organization...

IN : Heatley, Corvo, Meszaros, Foligno, Elliott

OUT : Hossa, Havlat, Bonk, White, Chara, Salo, Lalime

 

[Xspyrit]

Have you reviewed the Dany Heatley, Jason Spezza trades recently. Losing Alfie.

I know you always tried hard to diminish Bryan Murray but :

- Alfie was gone over a salary dispute with Melnyk. He was also 41 y/o already and retired after the season. What sucked is more that he couldn't play all his career with Ottawa. Murray used some of the money to sign Clarke MacArthur, who was an awesome signing

- Spezza was 31 y/o, had back problems and only 1 year left before UFA. He wanted out of Ottawa because of fan scrutiny and everyone and their dog knew he was going to be overpaid on his next contract. He was good the first year of that extension but quickly became a massive anchor, as anticipated. We had Chiasson, then Paul and now still have Mathieu Joseph. Not bad considering Spezza probably nixed at least 2 trades before that one with Dallas

- Dany Heatley lol, even worse, he became one of the worst contracts in the NHL very quickly, an even bigger anchor than Spezza FOR YEARS. Michalek was a young bulldozer, a rising talent. He had some good seasons for Ottawa and overall a very solid 2-way player for years at almost half the price. It could have been even better if it was not for injuries.

You could come up with Ben Bishop as another "horrible trade" but that'd be ignoring that Murray acquired him for just a 2nd round pick in the first place and that goalies in general have very modest trade value, particularly the unproven ones.

You can try to dig as much as you want but none of what Murray has done was even close to as damageable as what Dorion or Muckler did.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Why do people still care about this player or trade?

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Why do people still care about this player or trade?

Because we still watch how awful Kubalik has been and it reminds us of the trade.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Because we still watch how awful Kubalik has been and it reminds us of the trade.

Understood. Still, a first is a first and he wasn't signing here. What can we do, sometimes things even out and Claude Giroux is from Ottawa.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Understood. Still, a first is a first and he wasn't signing here. What can we do, sometimes things even out and Claude Giroux is from Ottawa.

Only because you spell it the same and they sound the same.

You are not going to last to long trading away 7OAs for 30OAs even though they are both firsts , they are very different.

 

[Xspyrit]

Only because you spell it the same and they sound the same.

You are not going to last to long trading away 7OAs for 30OAs even though they are both firsts , they are very different.

For reference :

https://myslu.stlawu.edu/~msch/sports/Schuckers_NHL_Draft.pdf

Page 7 there's a "Proposed NHL Draft Value Pick Chart"

 

[R2010]

I know you always tried hard to diminish Bryan Murray but :

- Alfie was gone over a salary dispute with Melnyk. He was also 41 y/o already and retired after the season. What sucked is more that he couldn't play all his career with Ottawa. Murray used some of the money to sign Clarke MacArthur, who was an awesome signing

- Spezza was 31 y/o, had back problems and only 1 year left before UFA. He wanted out of Ottawa because of fan scrutiny and everyone and their dog knew he was going to be overpaid on his next contract. He was good the first year of that extension but quickly became a massive anchor, as anticipated. We had Chiasson, then Paul and now still have Mathieu Joseph. Not bad considering Spezza probably nixed at least 2 trades before that one with Dallas

- Dany Heatley lol, even worse, he became one of the worst contracts in the NHL very quickly, an even bigger anchor than Spezza FOR YEARS. Michalek was a young bulldozer, a rising talent. He had some good seasons for Ottawa and overall a very solid 2-way player for years at almost half the price. It could have been even better if it was not for injuries.

You could come up with Ben Bishop as another "horrible trade" but that'd be ignoring that Murray acquired him for just a 2nd round pick in the first place and that goalies in general have very modest trade value, particularly the unproven ones.

You can try to dig as much as you want but none of what Murray has done was even close to as damageable as what Dorion or Muckler did.

He was their #1 Centre in Year#2's playoffs and nearly got them through to the conference finals. No one considered him an Anchor in years 1 to 3. Also he left because he saw the writing on the wall re: Rebuild. He's said that a few times.

Just because you don't like Spezz doesn't mean you should re-write his history.

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

Because I am able to look at reality?

For that reason, I am.

Denial actually puts your brain in cognitive dissonance and one of our brain main functions is to keep its cognitive coherence, so not seeing reality actually triggers insanity, or mental health problems.

But… a brain’s defense mechanisms are to maintain sanity. Sometimes seeing what you want (or need) to see helps maintain sanity, even if distorted accordingly

 

[SpezDispenser]

Only because you spell it the same and they sound the same.

You are not going to last to long trading away 7OAs for 30OAs even though they are both firsts , they are very different.

I know, but literally...what's the point of dwelling on it with a completely new regime?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I know, but literally...what's the point of dwelling on it with a completely new regime?

I think some see it as dwelling and some just enjoy it as conversation about some history of the team.

 

[bicboi64]

More evidence that DeBrincat was just a product of Kane. He's never scoring 40g again.