Alain Vigneault Named Head Coach Part 2

[deadhead]

I don't buy the line that AV's a bad playoff coach, at least in NY, he didn't have great teams to work with and got them deep into the playoffs.
He had solid forwards, but no superstars, one top defensemen and a bunch of marginal types and a very good but aging goalie.
Zuccarello, Stepan, Brassard, Kreider, Hayes, Hagelin, JT Miller, Zibanejad broke out at age 25, after AV left.
So a lot of 2nd/3rd line guys, solid group but anyone you'd want on your first line?
Same on defense, McDonagh, but Girardi, Staal, Klein, Yandle, Holden, Skjei arrived at the end of his tenure and he's not top pair material.

In Vancouver he had the Sendin boys and Kesler, Bieksa on defense, Luongo in goal. And not a whole lot else.

In neither places did he have the kind of talent that you'd say how did he fail to win a Cup or get to the SC Finals on multiple occasions?
Compare to Sullivan in Pittsburgh or Trotz in Washington.

 

[Embiid]

So do we start an official Fire Av Thread now? Expect it to run about 3-4 years...

 

[Hurricane28]

So do we start an official Fire Av Thread now? Expect it to run about 3-4 years...

What I want to know is what the misspelling on the thread will be. Last go around, it was Hakstok. Whats next?

 

[Embiid]

Fire Alain Gestalt ...Vignette...
Renault...??

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

AV does not win the Adams. Award goes to Bruce Cassidy.

 

[wankstifier]

AV does not win the Adams. Award goes to Bruce Cassidy.

thank f***

 

[BrindamoursNose]

AV does not win the Adams. Award goes to Bruce Cassidy.

I bet AV is going to challenge this call

 

[Striiker]

thank f***

If he had won it would've been used as proof of him being a great coach for the rest of his time here.

 

[Magua]

In more important news than the Jack Adams Award, Michel Therrien was announced as the unanimous winner of the Jack Link’s Beef Jerky Messin’ with Sasquatch Award. This prestigious trophy is given to the ape-like creature adjudged to have contributed the least to both his team’s success and evolution’s success. Well done, Michel. Well done indeed.

 

[kudymen]

In more important news than the Jack Adams Award, Michel Therrien was announced as the unanimous winner of the Jack Link’s Beef Jerky Messin’ with Sasquatch Award. This prestigious trophy is given to the ape-like creature adjudged to have contributed the least to both his team’s success and evolution’s success. Well done, Michel. Well done indeed.

It is very fitting that the winner of that award gets to wear a Dr. Zaius-like mustard vest

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

 

[Chimpradamus]

It's stuff like this that you were warned about when it comes to AV, from Vancouver and NYR fans. I understand that you wanted to be ecstatic at the hiring and he looks good on paper and his resume, but when you see him mold the team, in action... oh boy, it's not pretty. He does so many stupid things that just baffles you as a hockey fan.

This is what he did in New York. Does any of it ring any bells?
1) He always finds 1-2 garbage players "that works hard" and gives them way too much ice time. They will look horrendeus and he will not flinch to keep giving them ice time. Alot of it. "Because they work hard." Yeah, at chasing the puck they gave away and finding their jockstrap.

2) He will never direct blame towards himself, because he believes in his own hype. He will always blame the team and he has no qualms to throw specific players under the bus even in the media. Just why? On a first outlook, he seems like a humble guy, but he's the opposite of that. He's full of himself.

3) His defense will have a tendency to leave a guy right in the open in front of the net. If the opponents can find that backdoor pass, it's most often a sure goal. NYR lead the league in backdoor goals against with AV coaching them during the crash. You think it's bad now? Give it some time, it'll get worse when the team fully plays the AV way and all remnants of the old coach are gone.

Recipe for scoring goals against an AV team: Get possession in the offensive zone. Cycle the puck along the boards a couple of times switching sides, then have someone pinch backdoor. Get the puck to him. Score. Jack Adams my ass.

4) In the playoffs, his offensive strategy will be read like an open book by the opponents. If they shut down the stretch pass, then what? AV will remain passive and if he tries to be active, he will only make it worse. He has no answers once the opponents eventually figure him out. He has never had a plan B in his life.

5) I've never seen a team coached by AV having a functioning PP. It has historically sucked ass and probably always will.

6) He also loves to put slow skating defensemen in a role they absolutely cannot handle.

7) If everything crashes, he always has his last outing card, he will do what just about any beer fan would: he will blame the goalie. He had Luongo in his prime, he had Lundqvist still being elite, he now has Hart. Not good enough for AV. He wants Jesus in net - if he can keep up with his system. He's a goalie's nightmare.

8) That gum chewing, arrogant smirk. If I could pay $50 to be able to punch it, I would at least consider it.

I could go on and on. He has his stretch pass and he thinks it's magic. He has a weird way of thinking how you can defend in your own zone. He has slimmed off his most crazy ideas since NYR, but you can still see it's an AV team. He's a pond hockey romantic I guess. I think he's one of the most overrated coaches out there. I have no idea why he's always nominated for so many awards, it's not like he gets loser teams to coach. But when he's finished, they will be a loser team. He will run them into the ground and NONE of it will be his fault, in his eyes.

I'm not a Flyers fan by any means, but I still feel sorry for you guys that Philly hired him. AV is that over the hill, old fashioned, stubborn, incompetent company president that keeps getting new jobs, just because he has experience at the job, is good at talking and has a flashy CV. He runs them into the ground and then gets a new job. He single handedly convinced the NYR management they needed a panic rebuild, when they didn't. They just had to sack Vigneault and get a real coach. A university coach got on par results with a far worse team than Vigneault had.

Of all the coaches I've seen in New York (Renney, Tortorella, Vigneault, Quinn), Vigneault if by far the worst one. The other guys at least seem to know what they're doing, even if they have their quirks and bad habits as well. Not as many critical ones as Vigneault. He thinks he's likeable among his players, which just make them dislike him even more. Most assholes are self aware enough to know they're assholes. Not Vigneault, he's too arrogant and narcissistic.

 

[Magua]

Stretch passes without adjustment? Doesn’t ring a bell.

 

[TCTC]

The only thing that little rant tells me is that entitled Rangers fans probably actually think they should've beaten a much better Kings team.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Stretch passes without adjustment? Doesn’t ring a bell.

Ok, so he has at least improved on that bit? Fantastic. Maybe because Philly actually has some options and better forward talent. Or because the players don't always do what AV wants, I don't know.

The only thing that little rant tells me is that entitled Rangers fans probably actually think they should've beaten a much better Kings team.

Actually no. The Kings were a much better team and they deserved it. That NYR even got so far was because they had Lundqvist. The story of his career. They were outplayed every playoff series.

Do I go over the top? That's entirely possible. That doesn't change that Vigneault is a very overrated coach.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

It's stuff like this that you were warned about when it comes to AV, from Vancouver and NYR fans. I understand that you wanted to be ecstatic at the hiring and he looks good on paper and his resume, but when you see him mold the team, in action... oh boy, it's not pretty. He does so many stupid things that just baffles you as a hockey fan.

This is what he did in New York. Does any of it ring any bells?
1) He always finds 1-2 garbage players "that works hard" and gives them way too much ice time. They will look horrendeus and he will not flinch to keep giving them ice time. Alot of it. "Because they work hard." Yeah, at chasing the puck they gave away and finding their jockstrap.

2) He will never direct blame towards himself, because he believes in his own hype. He will always blame the team and he has no qualms to throw specific players under the bus even in the media. Just why? On a first outlook, he seems like a humble guy, but he's the opposite of that. He's full of himself.

3) His defense will have a tendency to leave a guy right in the open in front of the net. If the opponents can find that backdoor pass, it's most often a sure goal. NYR lead the league in backdoor goals against with AV coaching them during the crash. You think it's bad now? Give it some time, it'll get worse when the team fully plays the AV way and all remnants of the old coach are gone.

Recipe for scoring goals against an AV team: Get possession in the offensive zone. Cycle the puck along the boards a couple of times switching sides, then have someone pinch backdoor. Get the puck to him. Score. Jack Adams my ass.

4) In the playoffs, his offensive strategy will be read like an open book by the opponents. If they shut down the stretch pass, then what? AV will remain passive and if he tries to be active, he will only make it worse. He has no answers once the opponents eventually figure him out. He has never had a plan B in his life.

5) I've never seen a team coached by AV having a functioning PP. It has historically sucked ass and probably always will.

6) He also loves to put slow skating defensemen in a role they absolutely cannot handle.

7) If everything crashes, he always has his last outing card, he will do what just about any beer fan would: he will blame the goalie. He had Luongo in his prime, he had Lundqvist still being elite, he now has Hart. Not good enough for AV. He wants Jesus in net - if he can keep up with his system. He's a goalie's nightmare.

8) That gum chewing, arrogant smirk. If I could pay $50 to be able to punch it, I would at least consider it.

I could go on and on. He has his stretch pass and he thinks it's magic. He has a weird way of thinking how you can defend in your own zone. He has slimmed off his most crazy ideas since NYR, but you can still see it's an AV team. He's a pond hockey romantic I guess. I think he's one of the most overrated coaches out there. I have no idea why he's always nominated for so many awards, it's not like he gets loser teams to coach. But when he's finished, they will be a loser team. He will run them into the ground and NONE of it will be his fault, in his eyes.

I'm not a Flyers fan by any means, but I still feel sorry for you guys that Philly hired him. AV is that over the hill, old fashioned, stubborn, incompetent company president that keeps getting new jobs, just because he has experience at the job, is good at talking and has a flashy CV. He runs them into the ground and then gets a new job. He single handedly convinced the NYR management they needed a panic rebuild, when they didn't. They just had to sack Vigneault and get a real coach. A university coach got on par results with a far worse team than Vigneault had.

Of all the coaches I've seen in New York (Renney, Tortorella, Vigneault, Quinn), Vigneault if by far the worst one. The other guys at least seem to know what they're doing, even if they have their quirks and bad habits as well. Not as many critical ones as Vigneault. He thinks he's likeable among his players, which just make them dislike him even more. Most assholes are self aware enough to know they're assholes. Not Vigneault, he's too arrogant and narcissistic.

Jatte bra. Fantastisk. Great post.

Fire French Hak.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Ok, so he has at least improved on that bit? Fantastic. Maybe because Philly actually has some options and better forward talent. Or because the players don't always do what AV wants, I don't know.

Actually no. The Kings were a much better team and they deserved it. That NYR even got so far was because they had Lundqvist. The story of his career. They were outplayed every playoff series.

Do I go over the top? That's entirely possible. That doesn't change that Vigneault is a very overrated coach.

The first response was sarcastic. The second post ... I wish were sarcastic. He believes that.

 

[Chimpradamus]

The first response was sarcastic. The second post ... I wish were sarcastic. He believes that.

So the stretch pass is still AV's plan A, B and C? Well, I was actually really surprised until you told me he was being sarcastic. I haven't watched enough Flyers hockey to evaluate properly.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

So the stretch pass is still AV's plan A, B and C? Well, I was actually really surprised until you told me he was being sarcastic.

Ja, it seems like it. The interim clown we had after Hakstol (and the guy who is still our AHL coach) is madly in love with the lob as an exit strategy - AV seems to love those too.

 

[deadhead]

Those Ranger teams weren't that talented, I mean did they have one forward you'd want on your 1st line on most top teams?
And after MacDonagh, AV had to play stiffs on defense, because that's what he had, Girardi, Staal, Klein, et al.

I don't know who is a great HC, I just look at the talent and the results, Babcock looked great with great talent in Detroit, then in Toronto he looked bad with good but flawed talent. Q looked great with great talent in Chicago, not so smart in Florida, but Bob will do that to ya.

Berube won a Cup with a talented St Louis team - ROR, Tarasenko, Schenn, Schwartz, but Perron, Sundqvist, Bozak, Steen and Maroon, a great 1st pair of D-men, but 35 year old Bouwmeester was 3rd in TOI on the defense, Edmundson 4th, Binnington was a surprise, but far from an elite goalie.

Trotz struggled for 3 years to get the Caps over the hump, and that was a very talented team, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Oshie, Wilson, Eller, Carlson, Niskanen, Orlov on defense, Holtby in goal.

Sullivan won two Cups with Pittsburgh, with Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Guentzel, Bonino, Rust, Kunitz, but a "no name" defense of Dumoulin, Hainsey, Maata, Schultz, Daley, Cole. Helped that Murray was hot and Fleury had a couple good seasons left in him.

On the other hand, Cooper hasn't lifted the Cup the last few years despite having Point, Kucherov, Stamkos, Miller, Palat, T Johnson, Guorde, Hedman, McDonagh and Vasilevskiv. So they added Cernak, Goodrow, Coleman, Maroon and the key player, L Schenn and might do so this year.

Coaches seem to be smarter if
a) they have a couple elite forwards
b) an elite defenseman
c) a hot goalie

 

[kudymen]

There's a joke somewhere in there but I decided to be jerk in only one thread today

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Jatte bra. Fantastisk. Great post.

Fire French Hak.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Those Ranger teams weren't that talented, I mean did they have one forward you'd want on your 1st line on most top teams?
And after MacDonagh, AV had to play stiffs on defense, because that's what he had, Girardi, Staal, Klein, et al.

I don't know who is a great HC, I just look at the talent and the results, Babcock looked great with great talent in Detroit, then in Toronto he looked bad with good but flawed talent. Q looked great with great talent in Chicago, not so smart in Florida, but Bob will do that to ya.

Berube won a Cup with a talented St Louis team - ROR, Tarasenko, Schenn, Schwartz, but Perron, Sundqvist, Bozak, Steen and Maroon, a great 1st pair of D-men, but 35 year old Bouwmeester was 3rd in TOI on the defense, Edmundson 4th, Binnington was a surprise, but far from an elite goalie.

Trotz struggled for 3 years to get the Caps over the hump, and that was a very talented team, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Oshie, Wilson, Eller, Carlson, Niskanen, Orlov on defense, Holtby in goal.

Sullivan won two Cups with Pittsburgh, with Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Guentzel, Bonino, Rust, Kunitz, but a "no name" defense of Dumoulin, Hainsey, Maata, Schultz, Daley, Cole. Helped that Murray was hot and Fleury had a couple good seasons left in him.

On the other hand, Cooper hasn't lifted the Cup the last few years despite having Point, Kucherov, Stamkos, Miller, Palat, T Johnson, Guorde, Hedman, McDonagh and Vasilevskiv. So they added Cernak, Goodrow, Coleman, Maroon and the key player, L Schenn and might do so this year.

Coaches seem to be smarter if
a) they have a couple elite forwards
b) an elite defenseman
c) a hot goalie

Nope, those NYR teams certainly weren't that talented. They had Carl Hagelin as a top 6 winger, that says alot. A very soon to be retired, over the hill mercenary St Louis was one of their best forwards. Nash was invisible as always. McDonagh was solid defensively and maybe a true #1 D-man. Strålman was really good though as a #2 and of course NYR ditched him for the pylons Girardi/ Staal to albatross contracts (to the delight of Philly I guess , thanks again $ather). At least Strålman could skate and pass the puck and had a nasty hip check. Alot of pylons on defense and AV wanted them to play like they all were Erik Karlsson in his prime. He wanted them to play a man to man defense/ overload hybrid. Total chaos.

The entire forward position was mostly carried by Brassard and Zuccarello on the 3rd line. The 4th line was good though, really good. Both giant Brian Boyle and Dominic Moore. All in all, not a Stanley Cup caliber team.

When the Conn Smythe candidates on the team were 1) Lundqvist 2) Lundqvist and 3) McDonagh maybe out of consolation(?), you're not winning a cup. I have no clue how they reached the finals, they were dominated from round 1 and forward. Well, because of their only Conn Smythe candidate, he played out of his mind. He had to be the best player on the ice every series - and he was.

It was basically the same story with Tortorella in 11/12, but he at least realized and completely understood it was Lundqvist and him only that would give the team a chance at success. Hence the pillbox defense and panic mode to just clear the puck for 60 minutes and a grindfest if the puck got to the other end, hoping to get a goal somehow. If NYR allowed 0-1, it was a mountain to climb. 0-2 and it was all over.

I think part of the reason why the team had success in 13/14 was because the team was still schooled the Tortorella, grindfest, eat nails for breakfast kind of way, while Vigneault wanted them to focus on that stretch pass. That's where a player like Carl Hagelin was gold and Kreider to some extent. He could skate like the wind and that was enough. They ignored Vigneault's other nonsense on the defensive end and it worked somehow. Apart from the abysmal PP of course. But then Vigneault's system set in to 100% next year and it was all over. A total circus in the own end. The pillbox era was over.

If you're not interested in the NYR stuff because your gag reflex sets in:

I think Philly should do what NYR did, look for new blood elsewhere. Younger, more modern coaches who know modern hockey. These archaic, outdated, stubborn old bastards still getting coaching jobs just have to go. They don't even know they can't yell racist slurs to their players in 2020, that says it all. Some of them still think it's effective coaching to yell and rant like a pissed off drill sergeant or an old, scared Soviet coach whose life depends on winning. I have no clue why the NHL organizations just keep rotating these fossils year after year, until they have a heart attack. Kind of the same with the anthem singers who should've quit 20 years ago. Probably because the GMs the owners hire are just as archaic and have their inner circle at the old mens' club.

Europe has a couple of really good coaches. I've always thought Roger Rönnberg would be a great NHL coach and he's fluent in English. The physical play in the NHL suits his up tempo style. He likes puck tempo and hitting. Perfect for a team like Philly. Sweden/ Finland and Switzerland has a couple of interesting choices. I mean, Finland has their golden coach that can make no name players compete for medals, but that's more for the bottom dwelling teams. Or how about scouting for a new coach in lower levels?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Nope, those NYR teams certainly weren't that talented. They had Carl Hagelin as a top 6 winger, that says alot. A very soon to be retired, over the hill mercenary St Louis was one of their best forwards. Nash was invisible as always. McDonagh was solid defensively and maybe a true #1 D-man. Strålman was really good though as a #2 and of course NYR ditched him for the pylons Girardi/ Staal to albatross contracts (to the delight of Philly I guess , thanks again $ather). At least Strålman could skate and pass the puck and had a nasty hip check. Alot of pylons on defense and AV wanted them to play like they all were Erik Karlsson in his prime. He wanted them to play a man to man defense/ overload hybrid. Total chaos.

The entire forward position was mostly carried by Brassard and Zuccarello on the 3rd line. The 4th line was good though, really good. Both giant Brian Boyle and Dominic Moore. All in all, not a Stanley Cup caliber team.

When the Conn Smythe candidates on the team were 1) Lundqvist 2) Lundqvist and 3) McDonagh maybe out of consolation(?), you're not winning a cup. I have no clue how they reached the finals, they were dominated from round 1 and forward. Well, because of their only Conn Smythe candidate, he played out of his mind. He had to be the best player on the ice every series - and he was.

It was basically the same story with Tortorella in 11/12, but he at least realized and completely understood it was Lundqvist and him only that would give the team a chance at success. Hence the pillbox defense and panic mode to just clear the puck for 60 minutes and a grindfest if the puck got to the other end, hoping to get a goal somehow. If NYR allowed 0-1, it was a mountain to climb. 0-2 and it was all over.

I think part of the reason why the team had success in 13/14 was because the team was still schooled the Tortorella, grindfest, eat nails for breakfast kind of way, while Vigneault wanted them to focus on that stretch pass. That's where a player like Carl Hagelin was gold and Kreider to some extent. He could skate like the wind and that was enough. They ignored Vigneault's other nonsense on the defensive end and it worked somehow. Apart from the abysmal PP of course. But then Vigneault's system set in to 100% next year and it was all over. A total circus in the own end. The pillbox era was over.

If you're not interested in the NYR stuff because your gag reflex sets in:

I think Philly should do what NYR did, look for new blood elsewhere. Younger, more modern coaches who know modern hockey. These archaic, outdated, stubborn old bastards still getting coaching jobs just have to go. They don't even know they can't yell racist slurs to their players in 2020, that says it all. Some of them still think it's effective coaching to yell and rant like a pissed off drill sergeant or an old, scared Soviet coach whose life depends on winning. I have no clue why the NHL organizations just keep rotating these fossils year after year, until they have a heart attack. Kind of the same with the anthem singers who should've quit 20 years ago. Probably because the GMs the owners hire are just as archaic and have their inner circle at the old mens' club.

Europe has a couple of really good coaches. I've always thought Roger Rönnberg would be a great NHL coach and he's fluent in English. The physical play in the NHL suits his up tempo style. He likes puck tempo and hitting. Perfect for a team like Philly. Sweden/ Finland and Switzerland has a couple of interesting choices. I mean, Finland has their golden coach that can make no name players compete for medals, but that's more for the bottom dwelling teams. Or how about scouting for a new coach in lower levels?

We thought we did that with Hakstol and he preached interesting things, but the execution of those things was unbelievably awful. Who the hell wants active dmen, but then favors your most offensively inept dmen while benching your actual skill? Hakstol, that's who.

And he was an irredeemable dinosaur with player development. Actually he was more of a cnidarian than a dinosaur in that he seemed to actively oppose developing players.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Ok, so he has at least improved on that bit? Fantastic. Maybe because Philly actually has some options and better forward talent. Or because the players don't always do what AV wants, I don't know.

Actually no. The Kings were a much better team and they deserved it. That NYR even got so far was because they had Lundqvist. The story of his career. They were outplayed every playoff series.

Do I go over the top? That's entirely possible. That doesn't change that Vigneault is a very overrated coach.

They had pretty deep team and Hank to boot. I mean they had to be really f***ing good to ride AV's coaching into the finals.