Speculation: Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXIX

[txpd]

I dont agree....getting, lets say a ready for NHL prospect and decent pick doesnt seem outlandish, something similar to Ribeiro for example. Especially if 52 is such a rare player

Thats fine...its a long off season, plenty of time to work that out. Not sure what your point is. If there isnt some direct hatcher/tinordi trade to be made the assets and flexibility should be there

every year players are moved that are surprising, to some degree. surely there will be more movement than the current slotted UFA's and usual suspects this off season

quit with the rare player thing. the smug way you toss it in there is cheap and below you.

 

[txpd]

Pittsburgh acquired a young 25 goal scorer and a young 27 goal scorer. Boston traded away a young 36 goal scorer and just acquired a 40 goal scorer. St. Louis just traded away a #1 overall draft pick. LA traded for a 30 goal scorer and a 40 goal scorer.

That's a lot of contenders and Cup winners who made blockbuster trades. They're not all that rare. Especially among great teams.

neal for goligoski was a blockbuster? come on. it sure worked out for the penguins but a blockbuster it wasn't.

yes, you cherry picked nicely. St Louis is a great team? they are the Capitals with a longer history of failure.

on point, you have picked some large trades if not all flyers style blockbusters. but you ignoring that those style trades remain rare. because there is one in a year and you can point to two or three that have had a major impact it doesn't change that they are rare.

btw....the teams that the pens, b's and blues traded with. how did those teams do?
there are usually two teams in a trade. you mention one side. how about the others?

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

neal for goligoski was a blockbuster? come on. it sure worked out for the penguins but a blockbuster it wasn't.

yes, you cherry picked nicely. St Louis is a great team? they are the Capitals with a longer history of failure.

on point, you have picked some large trades if not all flyers style blockbusters. but you ignoring that those style trades remain rare. because there is one in a year and you can point to two or three that have had a major impact it doesn't change that they are rare.

btw....the teams that the pens, b's and blues traded with. how did those teams do?
there are usually two teams in a trade. you mention one side. how about the others?

Who cares how the other teams did? We're talking about contenders building teams via major trades. I just named three. Those deals were made by good managers who weren't afraid of losing a trade.

 

[BobRouse]

Who cares how the other teams did? We're talking about contenders building teams via major trades. I just named three. Those deals were made by good managers who weren't afraid of losing a trade.

Contenders are not built via major trades. The are built from the inside. Last I checked Crosby and Malkin weren't traded for. Sure guys like Guerin and Kunitz contributed but the guys like Letang, Orpik, MAF, Staal, Talbot etc were what won.

We can go through the list of teams like the Blackhawks and Red Wings too. The backbone of those teams and the MAJOR reason why they won is from building within.

Yes the Bruins signed Chara and traded for Seidenberg (which I think we could ALL agree that we should have traded for instead of Joe frikin Corvo) but it does seem most teams that have sustained success do so because of how they build and draft.

TX is right. What exactly have the Blues done besides choke in fantastic fashion? Even when they made blockbuster trades for Hull and Oates and then signed Scott Stevens? Poor example there.

David Poile was our GM once and he made multiple huge trades from Langway to Hunter to Dino to Juneau to Oates to Tinordi. One thing he never could really figure out was this whole "draft" thing and all that made us was an above average team that had no legit shot at winning.

Not a big Brouwer apologist or fan but "clear step down" may be an opinion based on potential and finesse, but it's not what the stats say. Brouwer and Semin both have 21 goals this year, and Semin has 6 more assists. Other stats can be split between the two of them with +/- favoring Semin and shooting percentage favoring Brouwer, etc. so not worth arguing that stuff when the idea is that his offensive production HAS been replaced.

Granted, Brouwer has taken 72 games to get there while Semin has played in 58, but that's part of the issue.... reliability. For the same money you'd pay Semin to miss a bunch of games you have Ward and Brouwer doubling the stats and skating every night.

Lets face it. Alexander Semin is by far a superior player to Brouwer. There are some things to like about Troy but man ...whoever goes on his line sees their possession stats get crushed. The more I see him the more I cant understand how a big strong guy like that so easily loses board battles. He doesn't really know how to shield his body on the cycle to protect the puck. Semin was highly underrated in that regard and was a superior defensive player as well.

The money thing is a good point. But 2 years ago there is no way we make the playoffs if we traded Semin.

So you say "big deal! We weren't going to win a cup in hindsight anyhow! We could have built for the future!"

Well there is a problem with missing the playoffs...your team as a whole loses a great deal of confidence and you can sink down to another tier of the downward spiral. It erodes whatever winning culture you hope to achieve.

The Oilers are a good example. They have tons of young talent but they simply don't know how to win. Look at the Stars and Jets lately...they seem to always be in the mix for a playoff spot in February...but down the stretch they always seem to implode or just falter. They don't know how to win. (and by winning there are multiple levels of it..the first is making the playoffs and the biggest stepping stone to climb)

Confidence is a fickle thing. It would be huge for the Caps to make the playoffs this year.

In 07-08 we looked way out of it but won out our last 7 to sneak in. Huge confidence boost that took the team to another level for the next couple years.

In 10-11 we were like in 7th or 8th place in January I think. We ended up winning like 90% of our last 20+ games to win the east.

The last 2 years it looked alot like this year. That we were toast. But the Caps, being a perennial playoff team now, find a way to dig deep. Thats a great trait to have and you don't want to lose that. Trading Semin that year would have surely set things backwards.

 

[RandyHolt]

The problem is, George did build from the inside, but failed.

The main problem is he did not draft a cup worthy defense. His vision is and was fixated on mobility as a priority over size and physical aspects, hockey smarts. The backbone of a defense has to be able to play a 2 on 1s, protect himself along the boards, and help young players. It's that simple. Ours cannot.

GM was very late to get goalies groomed post Kolzig. We are still searching for a developed G from within. It may be Holtby but then again he may easily be our backup next year.

Sure, we can turn to the trap and eek out a series win and it will just be another day another dollar in these parts.

Is George going to leave with his tail between his legs, or go out with a bang, or never leave. I am thinking more and more its tail and this year may be the one that does him in.

 

[txpd]

is McPhee afraid of losing in a trade? he has lost in trades. to the point of ridicule. he's made a trade that took a likely cup contender right off the rails.

btw....the bruins blockbuster deal that made them a cup champ. is that kessel for seguin?

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Contenders are not built via major trades. The are built from the inside. Last I checked Crosby and Malkin weren't traded for. Sure guys like Guerin and Kunitz contributed but the guys like Letang, Orpik, MAF, Staal, Talbot etc were what won.

We can go through the list of teams like the Blackhawks and Red Wings too. The backbone of those teams and the MAJOR reason why they won is from building within.

Yes the Bruins signed Chara and traded for Seidenberg (which I think we could ALL agree that we should have traded for instead of Joe frikin Corvo) but it does seem most teams that have sustained success do so because of how they build and draft.

TX is right. What exactly have the Blues done besides choke in fantastic fashion? Even when they made blockbuster trades for Hull and Oates and then signed Scott Stevens? Poor example there.

I'm not talking about 25 years ago. I'm talking about the past couple of years with the Blues. Apparently you two aren't aware that they're the best team in the west right now.

You're both just wrong. Drafted players play a big role in a team's success, but every team who accomplishes anything is also a big player in free agency and trades.

The Bruins cup team signed Chara and traded for Seidenberg and traded away Kessel and traded for Horton and signed Recchi and traded away Wheeler and traded for Kelly.

The Penguins cup team traded for Kunitz and Guerin and signed Gonchar and Sykora and Satan.

Chicago and Detroit don't win without their mega free agents.

LA went from middling to Cup winner with two massive trades.

How does a team perform when it's made up primarily of drafted players? See the Caps from 2008-2014.

 

[BobRouse]

The problem is, George did build from the inside, but failed.

The main problem is he did not draft a cup worthy defense. His vision is and was fixated on mobility as a priority over size and physical aspects, hockey smarts. The backbone of a defense has to be able to play a 2 on 1s, protect himself along the boards, and help young players. It's that simple. Ours cannot.

GM was very late to get goalies groomed post Kolzig. We are still searching for a developed G from within. It may be Holtby but then again he may easily be our backup next year.

Sure, we can turn to the trap and eek out a series win and it will just be another day another dollar in these parts.

Is George going to leave with his tail between his legs, or go out with a bang, or never leave. I am thinking more and more its tail and this year may be the one that does him in.

Yes you are right RH. We built from the front to the back where you really should do it the other way around.

But in a way I'm not sure thats all on GMGM. Some for sure. But the first 2 rebuilld drafts saw him take the BPA. Ovechkin and Backstrom. It wasn't until the 3rd draft that the top 10 was loaded with good D and he made a smart pick in Alzner. The next year he robbed Philly in what turned out to be Eminger for Carlson.

I believe it was the Backstrom draft where he got Varlamov and Neuvirth. The year before he scooped up Schultz (uggh) and Green.

Fate never seems to shine too brightly on the Caps does it?

What really hurt was the Crosby draft. How the rigged the lotto balls, held the thing behind closed doors and thus we got 15th overall when in reality we would be odds on favorite for the top pick. Where Pittsburgh got several years of top 2 picks (Malkin, Crosby, Staal and Fluery if you consider that) the Caps only really got Ovie.

Then there is the issue of penalizing the Caps and GMGM for being fiscally responsible. How the NHL allowed teams like the Flyers and Rangers to get bailed out of horrible acquisitions is beyond me.

So yeah...some on GMGM..some on circumstance...and some on the NHL for skrewing the Caps.

I'm not talking about 25 years ago. I'm talking about the past couple of years with the Blues. Apparently you two aren't aware that they're the best team in the west right now.

You're both just wrong. Drafted players play a big role in a team's success, but every team who accomplishes anything is also a big player in free agency and trades.

The Bruins cup team signed Chara and traded for Seidenberg and traded away Kessel and traded for Horton and signed Recchi and traded away Wheeler and traded for Kelly.

The Penguins cup team traded for Kunitz and Guerin and signed Gonchar and Sykora and Satan.

Chicago and Detroit don't win without their mega free agents.

LA went from middling to Cup winner with two massive trades.

How does a team perform when it's made up primarily of drafted players? See the Caps from 2008-2014.

Well the Blues haven't had much if any playoff success these last couple years have they? Lets wait to see what they can do here.

Chicago got Hossa sure but they were a contender anyhow. And if they didn't sign Hossa perhaps they keep guys like Ladd and Buff? Either way they were a strong team regardless. Keith, Seabrook, Hjarlamsson (whatever the spelling is), Toews, Kane, Bolland were all drafted. Them picking up Sharp is akin to us picking up Carlson in a robbery trade with Philly.

Detroits guys like Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg...these are the cores of their team and all were drafted.

I sure would have liked Siedenberg tho. Not only did we miss out on Pronger but we missed out on him too. We ended up with Corvo ugghhh

GMGM loves his soft puck moving Dmen. That has always been his achilles.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

I wonder what the cost would be to pry Jonas Brodin from the Wild. I imagine he's untouchable, but he'd be perfect in D.C. The only players/picks/prospects that I wouldn't make available in a Brodin trade would be Ovie, Alzner, and Carlson -- everything/one else is fair game.

 

[Stewie G]

I'm not talking about 25 years ago. I'm talking about the past couple of years with the Blues. Apparently you two aren't aware that they're the best team in the west right now.

You're both just wrong. Drafted players play a big role in a team's success, but every team who accomplishes anything is also a big player in free agency and trades.

The Bruins cup team signed Chara and traded for Seidenberg and traded away Kessel and traded for Horton and signed Recchi and traded away Wheeler and traded for Kelly.

The Penguins cup team traded for Kunitz and Guerin and signed Gonchar and Sykora and Satan.

Chicago and Detroit don't win without their mega free agents.

LA went from middling to Cup winner with two massive trades.

How does a team perform when it's made up primarily of drafted players? See the Caps from 2008-2014.

Just looking at the Pens situation and comparing it to the Caps, the roster moves aren't terribly far apart.

Traded for Fedorov and Arnott, signed Nylander, Poti, Kozlov, Knuble, traded Flash (eventually). Maybe those guys weren't the right targets, but similar moves were made.

Notably absent though, are key blueline acquisitions. The Jurcinas, Morrisonns, Corvos, and Pothiers of the world just aren't going to cut it.

 

[txpd]

better success after trades? sure. they won. the blues haven't and lets stop talking about them.

Seidenberg could have been done instead of whoever. Blitz and Weller? Seidenberg could not have been higher regarded with that return. It was a good move for Boston.

Kunitz was a good trade but not a blockbuster. I think its established that McPhee tried to get Guerin. and Gonchar. Getting him is proof of a good gm. Losing him for nothing as a ufa, not worth a mention?

 

[RandyHolt]

....

What really hurt was the Crosby draft. How the rigged the lotto balls, held the thing behind closed doors and thus we got 15th overall when in reality we would be odds on favorite for the top pick. Where Pittsburgh got several years of top 2 picks (Malkin, Crosby, Staal and Fluery if you consider that) the Caps only really got Ovie.

...

My blood still boils.

The squeaky beach wheel got the grease. His incessant whining and complaining on the ice led right into management. We have to save Pittsburgh because they owe me money! Give me the best player and an exclusive deal with NBC. What a crock of selfish ****. All the other owners must hate him as much as I do.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

better success after trades? sure. they won. the blues haven't and lets stop talking about them.

Seidenberg could have been done instead of whoever. Blitz and Weller? Seidenberg could not have been higher regarded with that return. It was a good move for Boston.

Kunitz was a good trade but not a blockbuster. I think its established that McPhee tried to get Guerin. and Gonchar. Getting him is proof of a good gm. Losing him for nothing as a ufa, not worth a mention?

The Bruins also sent a 2nd in the Seidenberg trade. He was certainly regarded as a top-4 defenseman.

And let's go ahead and give McPhee a gold star for trying. That's all that matters, right?

 

[g00n]

One of them drives play, can make game-breaking plays on his own, and so on. Semin can pull an entire line down the ice with him whereas Brouwer needs very much to be pulled by such a player. He can score when given the opportunities, but he needs them to be given to him. Semin is the one creating those for other players. "Clear step down" doesn't even close to say it. The argument you could make is that Semin is overpaid (he is, but not as much as haters say he is) and Brouwer therefore isn't a "step down" in terms of value relative to his contract, but to argue they're anywhere near each other as players is crazy. Semin is fundamentally in a different universe and his impact on the game is much broader.

Edit: Related, it's wrong to say Brouwer was Semin's replacement. He was maybe asked to replace secondary scoring, but Semin's replacement in terms of carrying the second line was Ribeiro.

I qualified my statement that it was regarding production and not talent or style, with other stats and intangibles thrown in. And again, you have to be in a game to have an impact on it. It doesn't matter who we think was supposed to take up the scoring from Semin, it has been taken up and then some for the dollar amount. So it's pointless to argue that moves should not be made based on failure to replace production, which was the original premise I was commenting on.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

The Bruins also sent a 2nd in the Seidenberg trade. He was certainly regarded as a top-4 defenseman.

And let's go ahead and give McPhee a gold star for trying. That's all that matters, right?

He also tried to sign Chara and it's alleged by some that he's tried to win a Cup.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

better success after trades? sure. they won. the blues haven't and lets stop talking about them.

The Blues turned an underperforming/injury prone #1 draft pick into a completely remade team. Isn't that what you wanted to talk about?

 

[g00n]

Contenders are not built via major trades. The are built from the inside. Last I checked Crosby and Malkin weren't traded for. Sure guys like Guerin and Kunitz contributed but the guys like Letang, Orpik, MAF, Staal, Talbot etc were what won.

We can go through the list of teams like the Blackhawks and Red Wings too. The backbone of those teams and the MAJOR reason why they won is from building within.

Yes the Bruins signed Chara and traded for Seidenberg (which I think we could ALL agree that we should have traded for instead of Joe frikin Corvo) but it does seem most teams that have sustained success do so because of how they build and draft.

TX is right. What exactly have the Blues done besides choke in fantastic fashion? Even when they made blockbuster trades for Hull and Oates and then signed Scott Stevens? Poor example there.

David Poile was our GM once and he made multiple huge trades from Langway to Hunter to Dino to Juneau to Oates to Tinordi. One thing he never could really figure out was this whole "draft" thing and all that made us was an above average team that had no legit shot at winning.



Lets face it. Alexander Semin is by far a superior player to Brouwer. There are some things to like about Troy but man ...whoever goes on his line sees their possession stats get crushed. The more I see him the more I cant understand how a big strong guy like that so easily loses board battles. He doesn't really know how to shield his body on the cycle to protect the puck. Semin was highly underrated in that regard and was a superior defensive player as well.

The money thing is a good point. But 2 years ago there is no way we make the playoffs if we traded Semin.

So you say "big deal! We weren't going to win a cup in hindsight anyhow! We could have built for the future!"

Well there is a problem with missing the playoffs...your team as a whole loses a great deal of confidence and you can sink down to another tier of the downward spiral. It erodes whatever winning culture you hope to achieve.

The Oilers are a good example. They have tons of young talent but they simply don't know how to win. Look at the Stars and Jets lately...they seem to always be in the mix for a playoff spot in February...but down the stretch they always seem to implode or just falter. They don't know how to win. (and by winning there are multiple levels of it..the first is making the playoffs and the biggest stepping stone to climb)

Confidence is a fickle thing. It would be huge for the Caps to make the playoffs this year.

In 07-08 we looked way out of it but won out our last 7 to sneak in. Huge confidence boost that took the team to another level for the next couple years.

In 10-11 we were like in 7th or 8th place in January I think. We ended up winning like 90% of our last 20+ games to win the east.

The last 2 years it looked alot like this year. That we were toast. But the Caps, being a perennial playoff team now, find a way to dig deep. Thats a great trait to have and you don't want to lose that. Trading Semin that year would have surely set things backwards.

Dude I am not reading a book every time you write something especially since it's usually just cheerleading that ignores what ever you just replied to. If you have a point to make be as succinct as possible if you want it read.

 

[BobRouse]

My blood still boils.

The squeaky beach wheel got the grease. His incessant whining and complaining on the ice led right into management. We have to save Pittsburgh because they owe me money! Give me the best player and an exclusive deal with NBC. What a crock of selfish ****. All the other owners must hate him as much as I do.

Yeah for sure. There was some suspicious stuff going on there. Bettman has always had an affinity for Mario and I'm sure he had something to do with his comeback in 2000. Scratch your back and you scratch mine.

That and the Caps were a mess and couldn't sell out playoff games despite having Jagr. Bettman was horrified at the idea of the Caps getting both of the potential faces of the NHL.

 

[BobRouse]

Dude I am not reading a book every time you write something especially since it's usually just cheerleading that ignores what ever you just replied to. If you have a point to make be as succinct as possible if you want it read.

Semin better than Brouwer.

Miss playoffs that year without Semin and not beat Bruins.

Missing playoffs bad for long term confidence and establishing winning culture.

Fire bad...bread good.

 

[g00n]

Semin better than Brouwer.

Miss playoffs that year without Semin and not beat Bruins.

Missing playoffs bad for long term confidence and establishing winning culture.

Fire bad...bread good.

I prefer to call it the "executive summary" but much better, Mr. Shakespeare. It's not that I don't understand, it's just that I don't want to read a book every time you want to Baghdad Bob a thread.

What you said has no factual basis and is a slippery slope argument. You're speculating that trading Semin meant missing the playoffs which meant psychological collapse and then total catastrophe for years because Oilers.

I don't want to get into the blow by blow again but Semin's production has been replaced, regardless of FINESSE SKILL, and it is an assumption without basis to claim they would have done worse especially since he wasn't that productive in most of those games or series over the last few years anyway.

Bottom line and original issue: pointing to Semin as proof that players are irreplaceable is not a valid argument.

 

[BobRouse]

Just saying that Semin was necessary that year and the Brouwer is not on his level.

As the skill from our top 9 has eroded so has our record and possession stats.

Maybe b/c we got rid of guys like Flash, Fedorov and Semin it signalled the shift to more north south hockey (which in the Caps sense is dump and trap).

Kuznetsov and Burakovsky may shift that back b/c I sure as heck can't see any creative players thriving under this "system"

 

[g00n]

Just saying that Semin was necessary that year and the Brouwer is not on his level.

As the skill from our top 9 has eroded so has our record and possession stats.

Maybe b/c we got rid of guys like Flash, Fedorov and Semin it signalled the shift to more north south hockey (which in the Caps sense is dump and trap).

Kuznetsov and Burakovsky may shift that back b/c I sure as heck can't see any creative players thriving under this "system"

You seem to be forgetting that those skill teams under BB began struggling soon after the Montreal collapse. It wasn't a decrease in skill on the roster, it was a change in the way the team thought about itself, played, exerted itself, was coached, and was defended.

The point being that nobody, except for true statistically elite players, are irreplaceable. The only guy in that category is Ovechkin. And even then you should listen to offers if the pieces in return would give you a better chance at winning a Cup.

 

[BobRouse]

We went through a slight slump in the 2010-11 year which suddenly saw us switch to the trap after the embarrassing loss in NY.

Just a few games into that streak we saw a philosophical shift with moving Flash out to bringing in Hannan. Flash was Bruce's guy so I have a hard time believing he liked that move.

I believe GMGM forced the shift on BB. The Montreal series started it because they listened to the talking heads about "not playing the right way"

GMGM, I suspect, has long been behind the scenes whispering into coaches ears about playing this junk hockey.

 

[Halpysback*]

Not one successful team got there without failing one way, trying something else, failing that way, trying something else, failing there, then eventually succeeding after running out of ways to fail. That includes changing coaches, GMs, draft strategies, on ice strategies, player development strategies, scouting strategies, UFA pursuit and evaluation strategies, trading strategies, extracurricular activities of players, sleep cycle of players, having a team pet... everything. Nothing is sacred. Not Ovechkin, not rare Mike Green, not Leonsis' business savvy. You can fall on your face, spectacularly, but it's also the only way to win. Boston traded Thornton, traded Kessel, traded Seguin. Each of those had more potential for blowback than anything McPhee had ever done, and some backfired spectacularly (at least on paper). Yet they're one of the winniest teams in the league now, because they figured out what strategy works and put all their resources into pursuing that strategy. Same deal with Chicago. Pittsburgh is actually more in our boat, they just have a lot more talent but comfort zones they let get in the way of winning (Fleury, Letang, Bylsma). Blues and Sharks are also trending towards Boston/Chicago.

The only sure way to fail in all of life is to stay the course because it's comfortable on numerous psychological levels. Caps are cursed. Mike Green will become Larry Murphy elsewhere. We don't appreciate our players. Ovechkin is a generational talent. Backstrom is a top 5 player in the league. We have one of the better draft hit records drafting soft swedes. You want a repeat of Jagrgate?! What, you wanna end up like the Flyers/Columbus/Florida/Edmonton? I'm sure I'm missing a couple hundred excuses.

Yes, the flip side is you can end up like the Flyers... and focusing on that flip side is the most sure way to end up like the caps... and be happy and comfortable with being like the caps and nothing more, like some posters here are.

 

[BobRouse]

Halpy

But what you describe has indeed happened before. The Caps made blockbuster trades in the past. Langway, Dino, Gartner, Murphy, Oates, JAGR!

They haven't built from within real well until the lockout in 2005.

Trading away guys like Green and Backstrom just for the sake of it (shaking things up or chucking stuff on the wall to see what sticks) would be a mistake.

The problem is that we don't stick to a philosophy and are too reactionary.

Good defensive team that has trouble scoring. Get Jagr! Bam problems solved.

Great offensive team who doesn't "play the right way". Trap! Bam problems solved.

We had success with run and gun players under a run and gun coach. There was no reason other than caving to outside pressures that made us turn away from that.