Abbotsford Heat relocating to Glens Falls, NY

[CHRDANHUTCH]

My cousin is a Union College alumni and he told me the college wanted to build a 6500 arena off campus in downtown Schenectady. There was early talks of sharing it with the Albany River Rats at the time. He said last night that if Albany's AHL team ever moves they may play there home games in Albany's arena. A game there this season drew around 8000 he said. He also said games there in the past with Union have usually drawn well over 5000 each time. RFA we are on topic, we are discussing whether AHL in Glens Falls really makes sense. There is really no proof the Glens Falls is a sure sell. Attendance there is bolstered by games down in Philly, Albany despite doing ok this season has had much worse teams. If the Adirondack Civic Center does get a team I am hoping they get local control, create an identity of their own and not be called the Glens Falls or Adirondack Flames. A team there no doubt will have to face competition from the like of Union College, and a team in Albany. Strong selling point is that a team in Albany plays in a very nice building, although my Father who travelled there back in the days to see NCAA basketball said the food is god awful in Albany's arena.

too late, nightsquad, Union College is a non-starter, I agree w/ RFA, NO One cares about a glorified D3 school in the ECAC, You want Union talked about, tell them to go D1, and see how they'll fare against HE, the Big 10 and the WCHA as a legitimate program....

everyone knew the Phantoms were a temporary franchise after the demolition of the Spectrum, and they've stated that since being spun off by Comcast, which none of us foresaw.... you cannot pick and choose what franchise may succeed the Phantoms in GF, AND IF IT IS NAMED the Flames, what's wrong with that, they've tried that in QC and Saint John, were known as the Knights in Omaha and the Heat
CURRENTLY.... Albany and GF have co-existed regardless of which league they've been in, just as Rochester, Binghamton and Syracuse do in the Western Tier.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

President Andrews was at the Saturday game in Glens Falls, that's a sign that something is going on- I don't think he was there because he's going to miss the hot dogs at New Way Lunch once the Phantoms head south. And he's not the type of guy who shows up at a losing cause. He's not going to swoop down from his perch in Springfield when a team is heading out, unless one is coming in.

Union College plays in a barn that seats about 2,500 in wood bleachers, and doesn't sell it out.

Is there any way these threads can be monitored and adjusted more, so they stay on topic? Not being rude, but ECHL, ECACHL, or other gripes about general AHL issues don't fall into what may or may not happen in Glens Falls next year.

Who knows what Andrews does or why he does it. He's attended games in Chicago before and they were not moving and no one was coming in. Maybe he has to spend budget or lose it for next year.

And as for the other, these are related to whether a team would be moving as they are all factors in the move and ability to draw.

too late, nightsquad, Union College is a non-starter, I agree w/ RFA, NO One cares about a glorified D3 school in the ECAC, You want Union talked about, tell them to go D1, and see how they'll fare against HE, the Big 10 and the WCHA as a legitimate program....

everyone knew the Phantoms were a temporary franchise after the demolition of the Spectrum, and they've stated that since being spun off by Comcast, which none of us foresaw.... you cannot pick and choose what franchise may succeed the Phantoms in GF, AND IF IT IS NAMED the Flames, what's wrong with that, they've tried that in QC and Saint John, were known as the Knights in Omaha and the Heat
CURRENTLY.... Albany and GF have co-existed regardless of which league they've been in, just as Rochester, Binghamton and Syracuse do in the Western Tier.

The Calgary organization are leeches. They moved out of Omaha after 2 years even though attendance was improving (3271 and then 3573). QC was 3523 and then 3035. Abbotsford is averaging 2924 this year so far. The Flames are like the Devils. Don't give a crap about anything except who gives them the most money. If they go to GF, expect them gone in two years unless they are get a deal similar to what they are getting now.

 

[RFA]

The real competition that Glens Falls faces is High School sports. There's a big difference in Friday night games when there is football or basketball being played. Union is about 1 hour and 10 minutes away from Glens Falls CC and is not in competition with any teams there. There is no drop in attendance when Union is playing. Union is not convienent to any highways, there is little parking, there is nothing near the building except a football field (no convienient parking). It was fun to go there as a high school kid, but that's about the only draw beside people who live close to the arena and the students. A few of those folks may go to the Devils otherwise, but it would be very, very few going to Glens Falls.


I doubt Union would move to the Times Union Center. The don't fill their 2,500 seat arena, and would have more trouble filling an additional 11,000 seats, as their main source of attendance (students) would be at a terrible disadvantage. The games they've played there have been promoted by the arena itself. In the past RPI also played a seperate game on the same night. I was given enough free tickets for myself and three friends to leave during each intermission of both games that night and return after a quick stop at the bar.

I have nothing against Union, I worked the games there from 91-94, but the reality is that it's not as it's being described here. I'd imaginge that coach Ric Bennett will recieve an offer from a bigger school and Union will fade back into obsecurity.

There was talk of Walter Robb, owner of the River Rats building that arena and sharing it with Union. That was in the mid-late 1990's though. Robb has since left the minor league sports business.

I have not seen/heard of Andrews in places that are losing their team and not getting a new one. He seems to be a bandwagon jumper, and in my opinion wouldn't visit if it would make him look to be involved with a losing cause. I'm not saying it's a done deal, but it has to be taken as a positive for Glens Falls to see him there.

 

[go comets]

Local media reports last year stated that the Comets agreement with Vancouver was for 6 years. BUT if the Canucks want to be in Abbotsford bad enough to pony up money to make the Flames go away they will have no problem paying the penalty fee for breaking the Comets lease early.

I hope Vancouver stays in Utica and Calgary does go to Glens Falls but I don't realistically think that will happen.

i really cant see anyone playing in abbotsford without a deal like the flames got. all that travel has to be a killer. the question is if the flames go to glens falls, and the flyers go to allentown, what does anyone think the divisions will look like next season. the comets would love to be in the east.

 

[Rumblick]

So if all of this plays out like everyone says or thinks......What happens to the previous comments made by some about a true western conference etc and how teams are looking to move west??? Kinda spits right in the face of that doesn't it?

For a while, there was talk of a full-out western movement, with a lot of franchise shifting between ECHL Western Division teams and AHL franchises, but it was mostly fan-fed, and it's died down to barely a trickle over the past couple of years. Seems the "less travel" debate is winning, as more and more teams seem headed to the Eastern time zone. Personally, I think you could see unbalanced conferences next season a la the ECHL (maybe an 18-12 split?).

BTW, I do want a team in Glens Falls, but I'm never happy when a franchise moves. I've known fans who lost their teams (including a number of friends who were Adirondack Red Wing fans) and it's a gut-wrenching experience a lot of the time.

 

[Nightsquad]

too late, nightsquad, Union College is a non-starter, I agree w/ RFA, NO One cares about a glorified D3 school in the ECAC, You want Union talked about, tell them to go D1, and see how they'll fare against HE, the Big 10 and the WCHA as a legitimate program....

everyone knew the Phantoms were a temporary franchise after the demolition of the Spectrum, and they've stated that since being spun off by Comcast, which none of us foresaw.... you cannot pick and choose what franchise may succeed the Phantoms in GF, AND IF IT IS NAMED the Flames, what's wrong with that, they've tried that in QC and Saint John, were known as the Knights in Omaha and the Heat
CURRENTLY.... Albany and GF have co-existed regardless of which league they've been in, just as Rochester, Binghamton and Syracuse do in the Western Tier.

You gotta be joking right? You don't even know Union is already a DI school. I dont even live in Albany NY and Union is making such waves around hockey circles its hard to notice. Looks like the rankings show just the opposite of what your suggesting lol. Don't look now about as of yesterday Union is ranked #1 heading into the NCAA. Not a promise of any success beyond Friday but obviously a siginificant sign of respect from knowledgeable hockey people so check it out baby lol.

http://www.uscho.com/rankings/

 

[Nightsquad]

The real competition that Glens Falls faces is High School sports. There's a big difference in Friday night games when there is football or basketball being played. Union is about 1 hour and 10 minutes away from Glens Falls CC and is not in competition with any teams there. There is no drop in attendance when Union is playing. Union is not convienent to any highways, there is little parking, there is nothing near the building except a football field (no convienient parking). It was fun to go there as a high school kid, but that's about the only draw beside people who live close to the arena and the students. A few of those folks may go to the Devils otherwise, but it would be very, very few going to Glens Falls.


I doubt Union would move to the Times Union Center. The don't fill their 2,500 seat arena, and would have more trouble filling an additional 11,000 seats, as their main source of attendance (students) would be at a terrible disadvantage. The games they've played there have been promoted by the arena itself. In the past RPI also played a seperate game on the same night. I was given enough free tickets for myself and three friends to leave during each intermission of both games that night and return after a quick stop at the bar.

I have nothing against Union, I worked the games there from 91-94, but the reality is that it's not as it's being described here. I'd imaginge that coach Ric Bennett will recieve an offer from a bigger school and Union will fade back into obsecurity.

There was talk of Walter Robb, owner of the River Rats building that arena and sharing it with Union. That was in the mid-late 1990's though. Robb has since left the minor league sports business.

I have not seen/heard of Andrews in places that are losing their team and not getting a new one. He seems to be a bandwagon jumper, and in my opinion wouldn't visit if it would make him look to be involved with a losing cause. I'm not saying it's a done deal, but it has to be taken as a positive for Glens Falls to see him there.

Yea I am not sure the statement that Union University fails to fill a 2500 seat stadium is accurate. According to the local beat writer their rink averages 95% capacity and barely seats just over 2000. That is much differently described as a building seating 2500 and in previous posts have said they can't sell out. Meanwhile the local hockey writer claims it's become the hottest hockey ticket in the area and the time has come to explore a bigger building. This is something that any AHL club would carefully want to not overlook. It looks as though the local paper gives most attention to Union and not even the Phantoms, but does cover the AHL Devils it appears. Seems as though with Union DI and AHL Devils nearby Glens Falls would be a tough sell. http://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs...e-hockey-slap-schotts-time-has-come-for-unio/

 

[Tommy Hawk]

i really cant see anyone playing in abbotsford without a deal like the flames got. all that travel has to be a killer. the question is if the flames go to glens falls, and the flyers go to allentown, what does anyone think the divisions will look like next season. the comets would love to be in the east.

The only team that will draw in Abbotsford is the Canucks farm team. I think eventually that will happen. The Abbotsford Baby Canucks. It will be interesting to see what happens with the current contract. If Abbotsford can get out of it, I see the Canucks dumping Utica and running to Aford. THat leaves Calgary either in Utica or going to GF or mabe even somewhere else...

 

[aparch]

You gotta be joking right? You don't even know Union is already a DI school. I dont even live in Albany NY and Union is making such waves around hockey circles its hard to notice. Looks like the rankings show just the opposite of what your suggesting lol. Don't look now about as of yesterday Union is ranked #1 heading into the NCAA. Not a promise of any success beyond Friday but obviously a siginificant sign of respect from knowledgeable hockey people so check it out baby lol.

http://www.uscho.com/rankings/

He also thought the WCHA was still relevant. Probably doesn't have a clue the WCHA was broken up to form the NCHC, with the league taking in the remaining former CCHA schools just to stay in existance.


Oh, and don't use those rankings, the polls don't matter. The Pairwise is what determines the tournament field. Union is #3 in the nation.

http://www.uscho.com/rankings/pairwise-rankings/d-i-men/

 

[Nightsquad]

He also thought the WCHA was still relevant. Probably doesn't have a clue the WCHA was broken up to form the NCHC, with the league taking in the remaining former CCHA schools just to stay in existance.


Oh, and don't use those rankings, the polls don't matter. The Pairwise is what determines the tournament field. Union is #3 in the nation.

http://www.uscho.com/rankings/pairwise-rankings/d-i-men/

#3 pairwise rank yes, but a far cry from how they were comparing Union as a non DI program basically a glorified DIII team. Threepeat ECACHL championship program, second straight NCAA appearance, not bad for a small private college. My point to them was that anyone operating an AHL team in the Adirondack-Albany area needs to be mindful of not only nearby RPI, but the competition from a strong Union hockey team who has obviously arrived at its place among strong college hockey programs. Thats two DI schools and two AHL clubs operating in cluster of small cities, not even considered a mid size metro area. Every year that region sees hundreds if not thousands of people relocate to southern and more conservative states. That area of NYS is very bad for business and jobs so there is not alot of disposable income up that way. They are betting the economy up that way on computer chips which that market is already showing signs that industry will face more competition from overseas markets which manufacture those products much cheaper and faster. Tons of public dollars (meaning high taxes) have been invested to lure some hight tech companies in that region but that growth has already slowed due to high taxes and unfriendly business climate in the state which is very liberal so I am not buying into the belief that teams are going to NYS because they are strong markets, they are just getting good subsidized deals to throw teams there to operate, thats all.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

#3 pairwise rank yes, but a far cry from how they were comparing Union as a non DI program basically a glorified DIII team. Threepeat ECACHL championship program, second straight NCAA appearance, not bad for a small private college. My point to them was that anyone operating an AHL team in the Adirondack-Albany area needs to be mindful of not only nearby RPI, but the competition from a strong Union hockey team who has obviously arrived at its place among strong college hockey programs. Thats two DI schools and two AHL clubs operating in cluster of small cities, not even considered a mid size metro area. Every year that region sees hundreds if not thousands of people relocate to southern and more conservative states. That area of NYS is very bad for business and jobs so there is not alot of disposable income up that way. They are betting the economy up that way on computer chips which that market is already showing signs that industry will face more competition from overseas markets which manufacture those products much cheaper and faster. Tons of public dollars (meaning high taxes) have been invested to lure some hight tech companies in that region but that growth has already slowed due to high taxes and unfriendly business climate in the state which is very liberal so I am not buying into the belief that teams are going to NYS because they are strong markets, they are just getting good subsidized deals to throw teams there to operate, thats all.

isn't there a college thread here, Nightsquad? none of wht you're saying has any basis in this thread.

 

[RFA]

So even if Union is at 95% capacity of 2,054, they can have 5% more fans (102 fans) for 16 home games or whatever they play. It won't change things in Glens Falls over an hour away.

They are D III at all other sports and don't give scholarships, that is why some people question if it's a true D-1 school. I personally don't care.

 

[axecrew]

isn't there a college thread here, Nightsquad? none of wht you're saying has any basis in this thread.

Especially since it disproves your comments!!!!! It has a ton of basis in here since it deals with possible competition for the consumer dollar in the glens falls area.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

That area is a tough sell for AHL hockey now. Both Albany and Glens Falls fall within Union College and RPI of the ECACHL. One would think that Union University having arrived at basically top ten college hockey powerhouse status that the modern day AHL which has changed so much would no longer appeal as much an NCAA DI that invests in winning. AHL teams, especially those owned and operated by their NHL clubs put winning and on ice performance at that level on the back burner, strong emerging NCAA programs like Union University play to win.

Maybe i'm biased(Cornell guy)but i'm no convinced Union is a long stay as a power. They had an older team this year so being good is somewhat expected in a way. I think they fall back down next year and you never know if they will get back up. Plus the league has a few teams who seem to be year in and year out contenders. It may be the best conference in America now

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

I actually like the ECHL model of doing business because they maintain the status of being AHL/NHL affiliated all while maintaining local operational control and local identity. The ECHL makes a great landing spot for undrafted DI players, exceptional DIII players, undrafted underated strong Major Junior players, and strong career minor leaguers. The ECHL also allows for dual affiliations and if managed right could be an ideal fit in the northeast given the amount of NHL & AHL clubs. The Glens Falls is so willing to take any AHL deal it has overlooked the good things the ECHL could offer the fans there. Look at Albany, the Devils organization came back and dumped their local identity and this might be the first time in well over a decade that the Devils organization will provide whats left of the anemic Albany fanbase a taste of playoff hockey.

Not as glamorous as you think. YES what you say is true BUT the fact ANY AHL team can pluck up your players(if they DON'T have an AHL contract within their deal)is frustrating. So you can sign an elite AA scorer(like a Mike Ratchuk on Defene or like we had Mike Radja a couple years back)you know they are getting a call it's just for how long and when. You often deal with a decimated roster in places like Elmira and Reading.

 

[Tackla]

I think Glens Falls will keep a team. Stay tuned...

 

[Tommy Hawk]

I think Glens Falls will keep a team. Stay tuned...

They are not keeping their team. They are trying to get a replacement team.

 

[Nightsquad]

Maybe i'm biased(Cornell guy)but i'm no convinced Union is a long stay as a power. They had an older team this year so being good is somewhat expected in a way. I think they fall back down next year and you never know if they will get back up. Plus the league has a few teams who seem to be year in and year out contenders. It may be the best conference in America now

Well maybe not a perennial power no, of course that's not going to happen. Union has certainly "arrived" as a full fledged DI hockey school, serious about its marquee sports program and deserving respect. Not only among its ECAC peers but the sports consumer of the Capital Region. I think certainly an AHL team in the Adirondack or Albany area should be mindful of Union's recent success and work cooperatively with them such as cross promotion or avoiding head to head scheduling as much as you can. If Union had a nice new arena or plans for building one seating more then it's current 2K as an AHL club nearby I wouldn't over look the 2 nearby DI programs and the other AHL club as possible conflicting competition for the sports entertainment dollar. That's a lot of hockey for an area really not that populated. Albany doesn't even have half the people that many of the AHL's mid size cities have, yet two DI schools and another AHL club located less then an hour north of Albany is a lot of competition for two AHL clubs.

 

[RFA]

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Census-Capital-Region-gains-population-5352674.php

The area has actually grown in the past year.

The recent ruling that allows college athletes to unionize will have interesting effects on RPI and Union, both private D-1 schools.

If I'm mistaken about the devastating effects Union College hockey have on the area's AHL teams, all the local college hockey fans possibly losing their team would follow the Devils and Glens Falls. So the area would be a good spot to set up following that logic.

Realistically though, if the two private college teams do fold, I don't think it will have much impact on the local AHL teams.

 

[Rumblick]

The ruling on unionizing will be in the appeals process for several years at least. even if they finally decide it's a legal move, then someone has to actually form a union, determine the purpose, and bargain things out. Kids who haven't yet seen their first day of middle school will likely be out of college before it's all said and done.

 

[RFA]

I agree that the NCAA/labor deal will take years to sort out. Same length of time that it would take for Union College to build a new arena that might have some sort of effect on Glens Falls' AHL situation!

 

[Nightsquad]

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Census-Capital-Region-gains-population-5352674.php

The area has actually grown in the past year.

The recent ruling that allows college athletes to unionize will have interesting effects on RPI and Union, both private D-1 schools.

If I'm mistaken about the devastating effects Union College hockey have on the area's AHL teams, all the local college hockey fans possibly losing their team would follow the Devils and Glens Falls. So the area would be a good spot to set up following that logic.

Realistically though, if the two private college teams do fold, I don't think it will have much impact on the local AHL teams.

I think that growth rate though isn't growth good for economics. There seems to be a ton of "brain drain" in Upstate NY, or people with good private sector job experience fleeing for right to work states. It seems in order to make a good living in NYS outside of NYC you have to have some sort of public job. Nobody I know says hey, we are off to Upstate NY for better job opportunities, tax savings, and certainly not the awful weather lol. A lot of human service agencies in the mid atlantic and southeast states refer those not willing to work to the northeast states, NYS especially for its overly generous public assistance and "entitlement" programs. I just don't think newer people moving to NYS north of NYC are bringing wealth and disposable income to support pro sports like AHL hockey. The Buffalo area is hanging on to the NFL and NHL by a thread. So much tax payer money is being used just to keep the NFL I am surprised people (the voters) are allowing for NYS Government to fund it....

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I think that growth rate though isn't growth good for economics. There seems to be a ton of "brain drain" in Upstate NY, or people with good private sector job experience fleeing for right to work states. It seems in order to make a good living in NYS outside of NYC you have to have some sort of public job. Nobody I know says hey, we are off to Upstate NY for better job opportunities, tax savings, and certainly not the awful weather lol. A lot of human service agencies in the mid atlantic and southeast states refer those not willing to work to the northeast states, NYS especially for its overly generous public assistance and "entitlement" programs. I just don't think newer people moving to NYS north of NYC are bringing wealth and disposable income to support pro sports like AHL hockey. The Buffalo area is hanging on to the NFL and NHL by a thread. So much tax payer money is being used just to keep the NFL I am surprised people (the voters) are allowing for NYS Government to fund it....

what does any of that have to do w/ the possible continuation of a franchise in GF, Nightsquad?

 

[go comets]

what does any of that have to do w/ the possible continuation of a franchise in GF, Nightsquad?

good question. this thread is way of tract. went to the comets game last night, flames people(craig conroy) was in house and introduced to the fans mid game. also noticed a lot of black paint going on walls in the aud. also there is a noticable lack of blue and green items in the souvaniour shop. all of which is pointing toward the flames being in utica next season.

 

[axecrew]

good question. this thread is way of tract. went to the comets game last night, flames people(craig conroy) was in house and introduced to the fans mid game. also noticed a lot of black paint going on walls in the aud. also there is a noticable lack of blue and green items in the souvaniour shop. all of which is pointing toward the flames being in utica next season.

I wouldn't read that much into it just yet. Not saying you aren't right, but I read an article on the net about the trouble the team was having getting merch, specifically jearseys. The article quoted the person in charge of that stuff, Esche's wife, as saying they actually went to vancouver and purchased some comet jerseys just to have them for the end of the season and they made a mistake by not ordering enough stuff.
That being said I do think that where there is smoke there is fire......BUT I can't for the life of me figure out why Calgary would leave a sweetheart deal in Abottsford to go to Utica. Not to mention they'd be moving farther away and not closer.