A pro Tank thread for the future of New York Rangers

[PlamsUnlimited]

I’m anti-tank!!!
I’d still consider moving Zucc, was open to moving Hayes but he’s looking very good this year. It depends on if Chytil is going to be a center, if he is we might as well sell high on Hayes
Then sign Panarin this offseason and I think we’re competitive

For this I would be fine with it but I would not expect this team to be a competitive one for the playoffs until we get at least 2-3 more years of the guys inside here to round out and beef up, hone skills and such. However, having a guy like Breadman would definitely help them develop and play nuanced hockey. If we move both of them and do that.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Hayes and Zucc should fetch late 1st each.

Want absolutely nothing to do with more late 1sts. We've built a team of mediocrity based on late 1sts propped up by Henrik Lundqvist for the last 10 years. I want near-ready prospects with high ceilings for those players, or resign them. If the late first is all you can get, take it and package them plus another player for a top 5 pick or blue chip prospect

 

[effen]

Unless the team is like 6th+ I'm stone cold positive they'll sell everyone off at the TDL or before. Gorton has done everything he has said he would and is under no pressure to "win now". He's gonna see it through.

Hayes is a tough spot but I think you trade him and re-sign him in the offseason ^_^

 

[effen]

Want absolutely nothing to do with more late 1sts. We've built a team of mediocrity based on late 1sts propped up by Henrik Lundqvist for the last 10 years. I want near-ready prospects with high ceilings for those players, or resign them. If the late first is all you can get, take it and package them plus another player for a top 5 pick or blue chip prospect

That's not how it works in real life.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

That's not how it works in real life.

If a playoff contender isn't willing to part with a high level prospect for a cup run with Hayes or Zucc, their management should probably be fired. Both of those players are the types of players that can put your team over the top.

Late firsts serve us no purpose at this stage, it's really not that hard to see

 

[Filthy Dangles]

I’m not sure what that price is, which is why I think they royally ****ed up last summer with him.

I disagree that they "f***ed up". This is a rebuilding team who is trying to see what they have here with their young players. Why would they have signed Hayes to a longer-term deal?

And by the same token, why would Kevin Hayes sign a long term deal opposed to letting things play out and possible giving Free Agency a look?

 

[effen]

If a playoff contender isn't willing to part with a high level prospect for a cup run with Hayes or Zucc, their management should probably be fired. Both of those players are the types of players that can put your team over the top.

Late firsts serve us no purpose at this stage, it's really not that hard to see

I meant more the packaging of multiple good prospects for an elite prospect, but like most things the NHL goes off precedence, and generally its late 1st+ prospect.

A team with a top 5 projected pick wouldn't trade for a UFA for obvious reasons.

 

[effen]

I disagree that they "****ed up". This is a rebuilding team who is trying to see what they have here with their young players. Why would they have signed Hayes to a longer-term deal?

And by the same token, why would Kevin Hayes sign a long term deal opposed to letting things play out and possible giving Free Agency a look?

Hayes woulda signed 6/36 to lock that money up. They weren't offering that.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Hayes woulda signed 6/36 to lock that money up. They weren't offering that.

Maybe. Hayes could probably get more than that on the market.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I’m anti-tank!!!
I’d still consider moving Zucc, was open to moving Hayes but he’s looking very good this year. It depends on if Chytil is going to be a center, if he is we might as well sell high on Hayes
Then sign Panarin this offseason and I think we’re competitive

The Rangers have been “competitive” numerous times.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I admit I`m a pro tank right now and I like a low 1st pick as possible in the next couple of years to build on a new future core and hopefully add a franchise type of player - an elite skilled forward, and build it in the draft. But the main reason behind this topic is to stay on topic, @jas when we are debating post games topics or GDT, because recently it has almost been unreadable.

It`s nothing wrong to discuss Chytil, Lias, Howden or others in game to game evaluation and team performance in PGT though.
We`ve the same on the Canucks HF forum, and there are some Rangers fans and Canuck fans who really enjoy winning games in GDT kind of topics, and it`s to not spoil their fun of watching a game of hockey with your favorite team and hope Rangers win. Because many live in the moment and don`t worry about the future or drafts in the summer 2019.
So as I mentioned earlier it`s a suggestion to limit the amount of tank related comments in other topics - it will be much more enjoyable to both read and participate and talk about Rangers.

It’s still a 2:1 ratio of “why isn’t De’Angelo playing”:”please tank” in the GDTs

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Boston and LA both fit the narrative. Had top 5 draft picks leading up to their Cup runs.

Expand to final four teams. Tampa. Caps. Flyers. Hurricanes. Jets. On and on and on.

The importance of the players acquired under said picks varies. But there is a pretty well worn patten between conference finalists and a top 5 pick within ~5 years prior.

I'm discussing top 2 picks not top 5. Top 5 is not tanking.

Boston didn't tank either, they traded. Does not fit the narrative that we have to tank. We had gabs, Jagr and nash. So by your definition we had tank level players but didn't have to tank.

La had doughty, forgot about him bc he was a great player but let's not pretend like a player of his caliber is hard to get outside the top 2. Ps dude was drafted in 08. I pointed out how no team with a top 2 pick post 04-08 has won it all.

If the argument is that a tank is needed then we should see

A) the player picked be the type of difference maker that only a top 2 pick can provide

B) it should be a top 2 pick that a team tanked to get.

Dont tell me we need to tank bc you need that top player in the league and then point to drew doughty. Drew doughty was great, he was not carrying anyone to a cup.

Dont think Seguin was carrying anyone either. What was he a 22 point rookie that year? But I gotta hear how Boston fits the narrative of tank to win?

Like I said 04-08.

If you want to pretend like two super teams from those drafts haven't unreasonably skewed data in a short, 15 year sample size then you're wrong.

For years tanking was bottoming out and it was reserved for Pitt, edm and Chicago. Now alluva sudden its having a single top 5 pick lol. Amazing how those goalposts move. Soon it'll be having one single top 10 pick...then a lotto pick

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

The only importance to a finals appearance is if you win.

You keep waiting for the league to change. I’ll look to keep doing what’s been building all the championship teams since the lockout started.

You're completely wrong. Not sure why you keep reiterating the same wrong point


League already changed.

04-08 no tank team since has won it all.

Try addressing that fact instead of avoiding it.

 

[mike14]

Granted I'm a simpleton, but couldn't this have all just gone in either the draft or roster building threads where these conversations are already taking place?

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Granted I'm a simpleton, but couldn't this have all just gone in either the draft or roster building threads where these conversations are already taking place?

Mod linked here

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Granted I'm a simpleton, but couldn't this have all just gone in either the draft or roster building threads where these conversations are already taking place?

No. Those threads are already clogged with “why isn’t DeAngelo playing”, “why is the coach ruining X player, “the music at the garden was different because of AV, and “has anyone noticed Staal is less good now than he was over a decade ago?”.

A fringe almost off topic thread such as “why are we not doing a full rebuild?” during a rebuild year after they sent out an email saying we are going for a full rebuild needs it’s own space.

 

[mrhockey193195]

I agree with @shinchanuuhh that PIT and CHI skew the data drastically. I don't think we *need* a top-2 pick to win a cup, and there's no guarantee that if we're in that position we get a Seguin instead of a Yakupov. Look at all the teams that have "tanked" for the better parts of a decade and produced basically nothing (NYI, FLA, EDM, BUF, CBJ, COL, ARZ).

I actually think having multiple mid-first-round picks over the course of a few years is a great way to build depth, and you might actually get a Kuznetsov or a Pasternak or Kopitar in that area. If not, free agency is a viable option (thinking Panarin here, or a guy like Tavares if ever available), though I know why our fanbase is pretty weary of big-name FAs.

I totally get why people want to tank and want to get an Eichel, or a Seguin, or a Hedman...I'm just not convinced that will happen and even if it does, that does not guarantee success unless you have a foundation.

 

[Dijock94]

I don’t like they idea of tanking. I want our team to play hard and fight and compete, but I want to rebuild. So I want to sell off aging depreciating assets for picks and prospects. If we build depth in the organization it should turn into success. I mean look how far we have come in one and a half years.

Andersson
Kravstov
Chytil
DeAngelo
Pionk
Miller
Lundkvist
Howden
Hajek
Rykov
Keane

I mean that’s a serious foundation already.

 

[Webster]

You need veterans to have success, that letter never said they will trade all of them. What they said there has been done.

Some people want to trade everyone over 30, saying they will decline. That's just silly, look at Hank, still going strong...

 

[Dijock94]

You need veterans to have success, that letter never said they will trade all of them. What they said there has been done.

Some people want to trade everyone over 30, saying they will decline. That's just silly, look at Hank, still going strong...

Goalies tend to have more prime years than skaters. Signing someone like Zuccarello at his age will nine times out of ten end up as a negative value contract almost immediately.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

And let me be clear about this. I agree that a top 2 pick often provides a very hard to get, crucial piece to a cup winning team. I would never deny that. I have been on team tank this season.

Just that it's not needed anymore. Now that the league has changed in several ways we've seen the evidence of this.

Once we get the luckiest, most garbage franchise ever out of the way (pitt) I truly think we will see many teams win that are built without the benefit of tanking

 

[TheBloodyNine]

You're completely wrong. Not sure why you keep reiterating the same wrong point


League already changed.

04-08 no tank team since has won it all.

Try addressing that fact instead of avoiding it.

If you think getting to the finals means anything if you don’t win you have a losers mentality plain and simple.

Just because none of those teams have won yet doesn’t diminish the other 6 teams who have and have won multiple cups. It took Wash awhile but they still have. Tampa has been a favorite every year since 2014-2015. The leafs are a favorite this year. Once again because it seems you have reading comprehension problems, those other teams who have tanked and been unsuccessful are a product of their management and not the talent they have amassed.


A team that wins this year will have a top-5 drafted player on that team.

 

[Mac n Gs]

They're already in much better shape than the teams around the league who have been unable to rebuild. They have a nice mix of veterans, young core players, and promising rookies. They have a great coaching staff. The front office is all on the same page. The pipeline is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was just 18 months ago. This is how you rebuild effectively. They just need to get lucky and land an impact player or two in the draft, or build the pool up to the point where they can package assets to acquire that impact player.

I tried saying this before the season started, but the rebuild, IMO, technically started once they moved Brass for Mika. I don’t think it’s a coincidence either that Gorton had a huge trade lined up to get the 4th overall to take Keller in 2016- he’s clearly been planning for a few years now. That type of foresight is why we’re much further ahead of the curve than other rebuilds that either go scorched earth or are just saddled with awful aging, contracts like DET and LA currently are doing.

There’s been some things I’ve disliked by Gorton, but I think he’s done a pretty damn solid job restocking the shelves and acquiring young, NHL ready talent like Howden and Deangelo. It’s going to take a bit more time to get there, but he’s building a really solid feeder system to bring younger guys in and turn over the older ones when appropriate. He’s kept the cap sheet relatively clean too, which will help down the line, whether that’s to extend the ELCs long term or to bring in a big name FA like Panarin.

I personally think they’re at a good point to bring in someone like Panarin to really help drive the top end of the offense. I think we’re still lacking that top-end talent to force teams to make a priority to matchup against and defend. In the mean time, I love Quinn’s mentality about making every shift difficult for the other team and focusing on bringing out the best of each player. I think having that mentality plus top-end skill would make this team a true, sustainable contender in the upcoming years. For the time being, I’m enjoying the ride with the young guns leading the way and watching the current prospect crop develop.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Goalies tend to have more prime years than skaters. Signing someone like Zuccarello at his age will nine times out of ten end up as a negative value contract almost immediately.

This.

The player is already clearly declining.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I agree with @shinchanuuhh that PIT and CHI skew the data drastically. I don't think we *need* a top-2 pick to win a cup, and there's no guarantee that if we're in that position we get a Seguin instead of a Yakupov. Look at all the teams that have "tanked" for the better parts of a decade and produced basically nothing (NYI, FLA, EDM, BUF, CBJ, COL, ARZ).

I actually think having multiple mid-first-round picks over the course of a few years is a great way to build depth, and you might actually get a Kuznetsov or a Pasternak or Kopitar in that area. If not, free agency is a viable option (thinking Panarin here, or a guy like Tavares if ever available), though I know why our fanbase is pretty weary of big-name FAs.

I totally get why people want to tank and want to get an Eichel, or a Seguin, or a Hedman...I'm just not convinced that will happen and even if it does, that does not guarantee success unless you have a foundation.

Every single team you just named are amongst the perennially poorly managed teams. Mess and Gretz wouldn’t win those guys a championship.