A case for firing Doug Wilson

[210]

Joe thornton stats in the 97-98 season. 55 games, 7 points, and 8:05 TOI per game.

Thornton was not thrown to the wolves. He was gradually introduced to the nhl so be could learn the finer points of the game (defensive play).

The bruins rookie that was thrown to the wolves was the winner of the rookie of the year in samsonov. That worked out so well didn't it? Lol

Samsonov is entirely different case from Thornton. He was a second year pro (he played a season for the Detroit Vipers of the IHL before being drafted) and played very well for Boston until breaking his wrist in 02-03. He had a couple of "OK" seasons for the Bruins after that but was never the same player because he had issues stick handling and shooting.

 

[Barrie22]

Samsonov is entirely different case from Thornton. He was a second year pro (he played a season for the Detroit Vipers of the IHL before being drafted) and played very well for Boston until breaking his wrist in 02-03. He had a couple of "OK" seasons for the Bruins after that but was never the same player because he had issues stick handling and shooting.

Good thing most rookies that would be getting a shot on the 4th lines would be 2nd and 3rd year pros then.

And samonov could stck handle just fine. For the most part he would skate and deke defenders all day long on the ice. But unfortunately that was all he would do. Once he got an open lane to shoot or pass the puck he never seemed to know what to do with the puck. (This was a running joke on the bruins message board after his rookie season)

 

[210]

Good thing most rookies that would be getting a shot on the 4th lines would be 2nd and 3rd year pros then.

With a skill set to play on the 4th line, hopefully. Playing a top six skill set on the 4th line does no one any good, ask Benn Ferriero.

And samonov could stck handle just fine. For the most part he would skate and deke defenders all day long on the ice. But unfortunately that was all he would do. Once he got an open lane to shoot or pass the puck he never seemed to know what to do with the puck. (This was a running joke on the bruins message board after his rookie season)

And after be broke his wrist he couldn't stick handle, which is what killed his career. Samsonov had NHL top six abilities when he was drafted, Thornton didn't. Putting Samsonov on a 4th line would have gotten him killed because he didn't have the game to play there.

 

[Barrie22]

With a skill set to play on the 4th line, hopefully. Playing a top six skill set on the 4th line does no one any good, ask Benn Ferriero.



And after be broke his wrist he couldn't stick handle, which is what killed his career. Samsonov had NHL top six abilities when he was drafted, Thornton didn't. Putting Samsonov on a 4th line would have gotten him killed because he didn't have the game to play there.

and yet even up until his trade from boston in 2005-06 he was still using his stick handling to get around defenders. he was just useless after gaining the space.

 

[Matsi]

Lately I've been thinking that the steadfast refusal to play at the upper-mid to upper end of the FA market is part of why we havent gone further. Looking at recent winners, most of them have at least one big FA playing a significant role.

Those are exactly my feelings. Year in, year out DW signs a bunch of bottom-six castoffs and forces the koala to ice a team with only four or five capable NHL blueliners. C'mon DW, do you honestly expect to win the cup that way?

He throws money at the Kennedys and Burishs out there, carries along a Havlat, and seems comfortable watching Irwin play 20 mins. a night.

To me it seems he never does anything to significantly improve this team. He fills one hole and, by doing so, creates a new one somewhere else in the lineup.

Since DW has been GM it's always been the same old song - utterly boring offseason, extremely frustrating postseason...

 

[SHAR KS]

Those are exactly my feelings. Year in, year out DW signs a bunch of bottom-six castoffs and forces the koala to ice a team with only four or five capable NHL blueliners. C'mon DW, do you honestly expect to win the cup that way?

He throws money at the Kennedys and Burishs out there, carries along a Havlat, and seems comfortable watching Irwin play 20 mins. a night.

To me it seems he never does anything to significantly improve this team. He fills one hole and, by doing so, creates a new one somewhere else in the lineup.

Since DW has been GM it's always been the same old song - utterly boring offseason, extremely frustrating postseason...

Yeah, but maybe if he keeps the same loser core then next year will be different.

 

[SC2008]

Joe thornton stats in the 97-98 season. 55 games, 7 points, and 8:05 TOI per game.

Thornton was not thrown to the wolves. He was gradually introduced to the nhl so be could learn the finer points of the game (defensive play).

The bruins rookie that was thrown to the wolves was the winner of the rookie of the year in samsonov. That worked out so well didn't it? Lol

Lol, nice revisionist history. Come up with that story by just looking at the stats?

Bruins pretty much botched developing Thornton the way Melrose almost screwed Stamkos--by not playing him. Wasn't until Mike Keenan came onto the scene did Joe take off.

Hear it straight from Joe himself: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?id=2188600

 

[19sharks19]

Those are exactly my feelings. Year in, year out DW signs a bunch of bottom-six castoffs and forces the koala to ice a team with only four or five capable NHL blueliners. C'mon DW, do you honestly expect to win the cup that way?

He throws money at the Kennedys and Burishs out there, carries along a Havlat, and seems comfortable watching Irwin play 20 mins. a night.

To me it seems he never does anything to significantly improve this team. He fills one hole and, by doing so, creates a new one somewhere else in the lineup.

Since DW has been GM it's always been the same old song - utterly boring offseason, extremely frustrating postseason...

So true. And to add again, I know I keep harping on this, but haven't we and others been harping on the fact that this team is 2-3 players extremely short on the D and in dire need of help on the D? And now, the 2013/2014 season is well behind us and yes our D failed miserably; now summer is here and he has still not addressed this. Only to go sign a bunch of fighters whom will assist us in zero ways and some D in which whom knows whom this guy is (at least he is pretty young) and simply take away playing opportunities for the young guys from the A in which we are supposed to be focusing on and see if they bring anything to the team for us in the future (if we are moving into the rebuild). question; does this mean we will be using at the least two D from the minors then? If so and we are in rebuild, DW should get the heck out. Any rebuild should be via a new GM and we go into rebuild and go with the youth and start moving all the vets, including the beloved Burish and Brown and this Scott guy (if we need one scrapper, then keep McGinn, at least he has youth and could have some hidden potential). But most of these stupid signings along with the inactivity of moving wasted roster spots (other than Stuart whom is now gone) are just that, stupid.

If we aren't going into rebuild, and Jumbo and Patty are to stick around (and add Torres to this as lets not forget that he is a vet as well // and Pav's also), then so be it but the likes of Brown and Burish and Scott are still useless. Our D is still in need of major help (at the least, two bodies missing to be competitive). Moving Burns to the back is great but opens a huge hole up front / this has to be addressed (oh man, I hope Scott is not that addressee ! I joke of course). Then, what the heck is DW doing to address all this? Yes early but, all that could have helped has signed elsewhere.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Lol, nice revisionist history. Come up with that story by just looking at the stats?

Bruins pretty much botched developing Thornton the way Melrose almost screwed Stamkos--by not playing him. Wasn't until Mike Keenan came onto the scene did Joe take off.

Hear it straight from Joe himself: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?id=2188600

There is nothing about that article that says Thornton believed they botched his development at all.

 

[sharski]

DW has gone crazy

one of his weaknesses is that he overreacts to what he perceives to be the difference-making quality between us and the team that beats us in the playoff... he just throws quantity instead of quality at it... but i think he's going way overboard now

struggling on the PK? clog our bottom-6 with forwards who don't fit at all except that they were pretty decent in another team's PK system... too bad it's our system that was broken

struggle to score against a team with an extremely deep top-6 D? acquire a few old bottom-pair D with cup rings that we don't have roster spots for and are ineffective when they do play

thinks our team is gutless and lacks grit? acquire the worst hockey players possible and send them headhunting around the rink in order to force Jumbo + Marleau out

das not it mane

 

[Barrie22]

Lol, nice revisionist history. Come up with that story by just looking at the stats?

Bruins pretty much botched developing Thornton the way Melrose almost screwed Stamkos--by not playing him. Wasn't until Mike Keenan came onto the scene did Joe take off.

Hear it straight from Joe himself: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?id=2188600

Nope i came up with that by watching 82 games a season for the bruins. And well being one of thorntons biggest fans does not hurt much either.

Thorntons career was basically a gradual climb up the depth chart year by year. And oddly enough, year by year his point totals bear out his ranking on the depth charts.

Year 1, 4th line center. 7 points in 55 games.

Year 2, 3rd line center. 40 points in 81 games.

Year 3, 2nd line center. 60 points in 82 games.

Year 4, 1st line center. 71 points in 72 games.

I find it hard that thorntons career was almost botched by pat burns. One of the greatest coaches to ever coach. Burns had a plan for thornton to earn his spots on the roster. And every year thornton did earn it.

 

[19sharks19]

There is nothing about that article that says Thornton believed they botched his development at all.

Yeah agreed. I don't get it,,,,I didn't read anything negative there???? Actually complimentary to some people, including JR.

 

[Irbes Mask]

History is a good indicator of what will happen. With someone of DW's track record, he doesn't sign a UFA to a one-way contract to throw them into the AHL. Your possibility is a very, very remote one. It would certainly be unreasonable to believe that Scott wouldn't make the team.

As for your development time, I wholeheartedly disagree especially with our organization's setup. There is a very large contrast in development quality between San Jose and Worcester. Your idea that it will go a lot farther is based on what exactly? Do you think someone like Desjardins was a finished product in his 4th line role? Like he is exactly what he was when he started here? No, he developed in that time there and refined his game a lot from what he was in the AHL.

There are plenty of teams that utilize their 4th line as a development tool across the league so obviously in certain situations players do get put there to develop in a manner that is acceptable to their organization.

You've yet to give a legitimate reason why Scott wouldn't make this team nor why the 4th line is not a development tool like they couldn't learn anything in that spot like you originally said...and subsequently back-tracked on.

I don't need to give a reason as that's not the point I've made that you've missed again. 69 days til camp, 97 til the season. Too much can happen between now and then to act irrationally about some guy who will have to work his ass off to stay on the nightly roster. And before you cite DW's signing comments those are things that have to be said when signing a guy of Scott's ilk.

You don't know who is or who is not 'ready' to 'develop' in San Jose. You think you have an idea but once again your premise falls apart when one looks at exactly how much information you don't have at your disposal, just like everyone else. Can you tell me precisely what the differences are in 'development quality' between the two levels?

69/97.

I will give you a name of a player that developed in the nhl getting 5 minutes a night as the tough guy.

He is by the way a future 1st ballet hall of famer. Could be argued that he was the best player in his generation of players. And one of the best playmakers to ever play the game.

His name is joe thornton, i think we have heard of him right?

1st nhl season he was on the 4th line getting 5 minutes a night. 2nd season he was the 3rd line center. 3rd season he was the 2nd line center. 4th to present he has been 1st line center.

I am also pretty sure marleau had the same kind of developement.

Bergeron had that kind of developement also.

Discounting that you may be wrong, this doesn't matter one whit. The Sharks don't have anyone with Joe's pedigree sitting in the AHL. So the comparison is pointless.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

Based on this offseason I think I'm ready for Wilson to go. I wasn't that frustrated over the Brown signing becuase I saw it as a bit (Albiet overpriced) reward for his success in the playoffs, but the John Scott signing has me going "what?" You say you're rebuilding for the future so you sign a guy who is only known for knocking players out? At least with the Torres signing, Torres was kind of like Matt Cooke in that he did have skills and was an agitator. With Scott, he's not a good player at all and if the team is rebuilding, than why?

I can't help but feel the Sharks are just good at pissing off this fanbase this offseason. Way to kick everyone while they are still reeling from the playoff choke job, team.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I don't need to give a reason as that's not the point I've made that you've missed again. 69 days til camp, 97 til the season. Too much can happen between now and then to act irrationally about some guy who will have to work his ass off to stay on the nightly roster. And before you cite DW's signing comments those are things that have to be said when signing a guy of Scott's ilk.

You don't know who is or who is not 'ready' to 'develop' in San Jose. You think you have an idea but once again your premise falls apart when one looks at exactly how much information you don't have at your disposal, just like everyone else. Can you tell me precisely what the differences are in 'development quality' between the two levels?

69/97.

Do you even know what point you're making? You've made hints that he won't even be on the roster but that has no basis in reality. GM's don't sign players to these types of contracts to not have them on the roster for the upcoming season. This isn't some borderline player we're talking about. This is a player with a specific purpose/role that has been doing it in the NHL the past five years without being in the AHL.

As for the development argument, I'm not arguing who is or isn't ready. The argument was that the 4th line is a tool that can be used for it and it is. You're the one now moving the goal posts on it because even you understand that your initial statement was blatantly false and are backpedaling on it to try and save face. I didn't even argue whether one was better than the other as it is a situational thing. I only refuted the idea that it wasn't one at all which you claimed falsely.

 

[Irbes Mask]

Do you even know what point you're making? You've made hints that he won't even be on the roster but that has no basis in reality. GM's don't sign players to these types of contracts to not have them on the roster for the upcoming season. This isn't some borderline player we're talking about. This is a player with a specific purpose/role that has been doing it in the NHL the past five years without being in the AHL.

As for the development argument, I'm not arguing who is or isn't ready. The argument was that the 4th line is a tool that can be used for it and it is. You're the one now moving the goal posts on it because even you understand that your initial statement was blatantly false and are backpedaling on it to try and save face. I didn't even argue whether one was better than the other as it is a situational thing. I only refuted the idea that it wasn't one at all which you claimed falsely.

Yes I do. If you'd read, you'd know. 97 days til the season starts, 69 til training camp. Plenty of possibilities available.

Now I'm moving the goal posts? Backpedaling? Save face? Get over yourself.

Can you tell me precisely what the differences are in 'development quality' between the two levels?

Can you?

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Yes I do. If you'd read, you'd know. 97 days til the season starts, 69 til training camp. Plenty of possibilities available.

Now I'm moving the goal posts? Backpedaling? Save face? Get over yourself.



Can you?

You proved my point sufficiently with this response. Thank you.

 

[Barrie22]

Yes I do. If you'd read, you'd know. 97 days til the season starts, 69 til training camp. Plenty of possibilities available.

Now I'm moving the goal posts? Backpedaling? Save face? Get over yourself.



Can you?

and one of those options won't be to trade or waive scott. if any thing the scott signing means we are going to lose (not the best of players) the likes of sheppard/wingels.

 

[Irbes Mask]

and one of those options won't be to trade or waive scott. if any thing the scott signing means we are going to lose (not the best of players) the likes of sheppard/wingels.

They aren't losing James Sheppard or Tommy Wingels because of John Scott, his 700k, his roster spot or any other derivation you can conjure up. That is absurd.

 

[Barrie22]

They aren't losing James Sheppard or Tommy Wingels because of John Scott, his 700k, his roster spot or any other derivation you can conjure up. That is absurd.

as it stands right now the sharks have 12 nhl forwards signed for next season. 13 if you count tye mcginn.

this is without wingels or sheppard being signed yet.

so as we have said a few times over already. wilson will not sign someone to a 1way nhl deal in free agency. just to send him down to the ahl at the start of the season.

so now we have to try and figure out which of the 15 nhl forwards the sharks will have signed (if they do sign sheppard and wingels). gets moved.

we can guess that mcginn won't make the team.

what we do know is the players that are basically guaranteed a spot on the team and those are.

hertl, thornton, pavelski
marleau, couture, nieto
desjardin, torres, kennedy

so now you have, burish, brown, scott, wingels, sheppard, and mcginn fighting for 3 spots. someone needs to go and quickly. and wilsons history of free agency signings, tells us that scott and brown are all but guaranteed a roster spot right now.

 

[Paka Ono]

The FireDW wagon is gaining momentum! I love it!

 

[SC2008]

There is nothing about that article that says Thornton believed they botched his development at all.

Oops, should've been more clear. Link was to point at which coach really helped develop Thornton. The fact he's specific to mention Keenan as the driving force behind him, also speaks of what's not said about Burns.

Even when talking about Burns after his death he dances around the issue:

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/article/20140623/Blogs/140628843

That's the type of funeral speak I'd give to certain bosses I didn't work well with.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Oops, should've been more clear. Link was to point at which coach really helped develop Thornton. The fact he's specific to mention Keenan as the driving force behind him, also speaks of what's not said about Burns.

Even when talking about Burns after his death he dances around the issue:

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/article/20140623/Blogs/140628843

That's the type of funeral speak I'd give to certain bosses I didn't work well with.

Even with Thornton's glowing review of Keenan, I'm not really inclined to agree with him when Keenan spent an entire one season with him. And it's not surprising that a player may not like his developmental path given to him when he's used to playing all the time and then he's not...as Thornton stated himself.

The reality though is that Thornton went through that development path. It's not even to say that it's always the best one because there is no one universally acceptable development path. It is case by case and there are cases where putting young developing players on the 4th line is the way to go. And whether Thornton will admit to it or not, it did help him.

 

[Irbes Mask]

as it stands right now the sharks have 12 nhl forwards signed for next season. 13 if you count tye mcginn.

this is without wingels or sheppard being signed yet.

so as we have said a few times over already. wilson will not sign someone to a 1way nhl deal in free agency. just to send him down to the ahl at the start of the season.

so now we have to try and figure out which of the 15 nhl forwards the sharks will have signed (if they do sign sheppard and wingels). gets moved.

we can guess that mcginn won't make the team.

what we do know is the players that are basically guaranteed a spot on the team and those are.

hertl, thornton, pavelski
marleau, couture, nieto
desjardin, torres, kennedy

so now you have, burish, brown, scott, wingels, sheppard, and mcginn fighting for 3 spots. someone needs to go and quickly. and wilsons history of free agency signings, tells us that scott and brown are all but guaranteed a roster spot right now.

69/97 - That's the number of days before training camp and before the season. You've already stated McGinn likely will not be with the team, so that's one less guy. Burish (I believe) has played his last game as a Shark I don't believe his body has held up to the point where he can play at a level worthy of a roster spot. That leaves 4 guys for 3 spots. Kennedy could be moved, creating a spot for Wingels/Shep. It's hard to say at this point...because it's only the third day of free agency.

 

[SC2008]

Nope i came up with that by watching 82 games a season for the bruins. And well being one of thorntons biggest fans does not hurt much either.

Thorntons career was basically a gradual climb up the depth chart year by year. And oddly enough, year by year his point totals bear out his ranking on the depth charts.

Year 1, 4th line center. 7 points in 55 games.

Year 2, 3rd line center. 40 points in 81 games.

Year 3, 2nd line center. 60 points in 82 games.

Year 4, 1st line center. 71 points in 72 games.

I find it hard that thorntons career was almost botched by pat burns. One of the greatest coaches to ever coach. Burns had a plan for thornton to earn his spots on the roster. And every year thornton did earn it.

Didn't burns get fired early in year 4? Thornton has 3+ years under burns! his best seasons in Boston under ftorek (?) yet mentions keenan as the man. Burns being a great coach doesn't mean he didn't stifled talented players. Sure management thought they weren't getting the potential/value they were expecting from Joe.

Darryl Sutter looks like a great coach now, but Selanne couldn't muster more than 28g under him.