Post-Game Talk: #60| Capitals at FLYERS | Wednesday, February 22, 2017

[Johnk0728]

So AGAIN, if he is outscoring everyone else at 5 vs 5, does that mean our entire forwards are 3rd and 4th liners?

No it means he is not good enough to get alot of PP time. And he is a mediocre forward playing on a mediocre team. The Flyers have not been good in a while. They have won one playoff series since Couturier had been a Flyer.

 

[Magua]

I think we're all saying the same things just not agreeing on the total package

We're not though

 

[TCTC]

Would be interesting to see how many points Couturier has without Voracek. Because it feels like Couturier needs Voracek to be productive as 2C. They complement each other quite well. Voracek isn't a great d-zone player and Coots isn't a great o-zone player.

 

[Magua]

Voracek the last 2 seasons has spent 30% of his ice time with Couturier, in which he has scored 41% of his points. Couturier has spent 39% of his ice time with Voracek and has scored 46% of his points with him.

They have a goals for/60 together of 2.93 goals. Voracek apart from Couturier has been on ice for 1.80 GF/60......Couturier apart from Jake has been on ice for 2.14 GF/60. Couturier's usage is irrelevant, because it's probably harder. And Jake's linemates are as good or better. Couturier's possession metrics are also better.

And the notion that Couturier isn't a good o-zone player and Jake isn't a good d-zone player is questionable. You don't become top possession players by being weak in any zone. Voracek is an elite transition player and solid enough in his own end. I wouldn't call him great in coverage, but he's above average and he barely has to play in his own end. Couturier is a terrific cycle player. He just isn't dynamic enough to create it all himself. They work well because it's just adding 2 good things together. It's not magic.

 

[Johnk0728]

Would be interesting to see how many points Couturier has without Voracek. Because it feels like Couturier needs Voracek to be productive as 2C. They complement each other quite well. Voracek isn't a great d-zone player and Coots isn't a great o-zone player.

Both Voracek and Couturier are having down seasons. Couturier has 17 points in 44 games. That sucks....He is not productive. And this board is the only place where that production output doesnt get criticized.

 

[Johnk0728]

Voracek the last 2 seasons has spent 30% of his ice time with Couturier, in which he has scored 41% of his points. Couturier has spent 39% of his ice time with Voracek and has scored 46% of his points with him.

They have a goals for/60 together of 2.93 goals. Voracek apart from Couturier has been on ice for 1.80 GF/60......Couturier apart from Jake has been on ice for 2.14 GF/60. Couturier's usage is irrelevant, because it's probably harder. And Jake's linemates are as good or better. Couturier's possession metrics are also better.

And the notion that Couturier isn't a good o-zone player and Jake isn't a good d-zone player is false. You don't become top possession players by being weak in any zone. Voracek is an elite transition player and solid in his own end. Couturier is a terrific cycle player. He just isn't dynamic enough to create it all himself.

Elite transition player???? He has never scored more than 40 points in a season and his PPG this year is putrid. You guys rely on analytics too much. He is not skilled enough to ever be productive offensively in the NHL.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

"This board" is just hopelessly blinded and "it" can't see the truth.
Only the iconoclasts have 20-20 vision when it comes to this team.

lol

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

"You guys" only look at the numbers.
The iconoclasts watch the games.
They haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.

lol

 

[kelmitchell]

"You guys" only look at the numbers.
The iconoclasts watch the games.
They haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.

lol

 

[Crescent Street]

Sean Couturier isn't a 2nd line center on about 25 NHL teams. He would be a slight upgrade at 2nd line center for:

AZ: Dvorak
CAR: Rask
MTL: Danault
NYI: Nelson
VAN: Sutter, although pretty equal here

I'll add COL: Soderberg

 

[Beef Invictus]

Elite transition player???? He has never scored more than 40 points in a season and his PPG this year is putrid. You guys rely on analytics too much. He is not skilled enough to ever be productive offensively in the NHL.

I'm positive you read that wrong. Voracek has surpassed the 40 point mark a few times.

 

[deadhead]

Got to be a little careful with stats, Couts is on the 2nd PP, which until recently didn't play a lot of minutes. He also is on the PK, which reduces his ES minutes.
2016-17 1.51 pp60 5x5
2015-16 1.96
2014-15 1.36
2013-14 1.52

His ES scoring is 2nd/3rd line level, but he's a two way center, so you'd sacrifice some scoring relative to 2nd line centers who only score.

 

[BillDineen]

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...ters&minutes=200&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

Go look....3rd on our team at 5 vs 5 points/60. So if he is 3rd liner, what is everyone else?

... which would be good enough for 10th on the Flames among forwards. Relatively good isn't necessarily good. I am a Couturier fan, but he has been horrible this year.

 

[Lindberg]

How did this team get worse from last year with better players? The coaching staff.

 

[cymbalizm]

I don't think giroux-couturier-cousins-laughton is a bad look down the middle in the immediate future. Couturier can't create off the rush but he is competent in the offensive zone and really disruptive/effective around the net, which should become a pretty key factor when that defensive talent rolls in. It's a real bad year. Everybody looks bad, not everybody is bad

 

[Flyerfan4life]

How did this team get worse from last year with better players? The coaching staff.

exactly.... college coachs dont coach pro level players for a reason

 

[Delete99991]

I don't think giroux-couturier-cousins-laughton is a bad look down the middle in the immediate future.

I don't see how someone can watch this team this season and come to this conclusion.

They really need an upgrade at C. It's crystal clear at this point.

 

[Delete99991]

And the notion that Couturier isn't a good o-zone player and Jake isn't a good d-zone player is questionable.

I contend that Couturier is too conservative in the offensive zone. He is indeed a strong guy on the wall and a good cycle player. But too often he defaults to the ultra-safe wheel around the boards to the defenseman or a low-percentage shot when you'd like to see him create.

I can't recall one instance this year of a well-threaded pass through the middle of the ice to a teammate, or a strong cut to the inside of his defenseman for a successful scoring chance. He keeps it on the perimeter and generates low percentage shots.

Maybe that's what Hak wants, I don't know. But it's not working.

 

[Tripod]

I contend that Couturier is too conservative in the offensive zone. He is indeed a strong guy on the wall and a good cycle player. But too often he defaults to the ultra-safe wheel around the boards to the defenseman or a low-percentage shot when you'd like to see him create.

I can't recall one instance this year of a well-threaded pass through the middle of the ice to a teammate, or a strong cut to the inside of his defenseman for a successful scoring chance. He keeps it on the perimeter and generates low percentage shots.

Maybe that's what Hak wants, I don't know. But it's not working.

You also have to remember, he is mostly playing against top lines and scorers. So keeping the puck in the offensive zone and eating up time, is likely more the gameplan as opposed to to a riskier move that could cause a turnover and send offensive players going the other way against awful D and poor goaltending.

I do think the years of Couts being used in the defensive role has made him ultra cautious. I think it's hard to let that go. Plus, who knows what coaches are asking him to do/play. And having Couts play against top lines and come out even, is a good thing.

Personally, I am fine with him as a #2C....or #3. Either way, we need another C. We need an offensive one, and let Couts shutdown top lines, or we need a more defensive one to take that role, and let Couts be the #2C and not have him focus so much on defense.

 

[Curufinwe]

I urge you to step outside of the Flyers bubble and look league wide. He is not a 2nd line center.

You're the one looking at things in a bubble of not even 50 games, and ignoring the three previous full seasons.

He keeps it on the perimeter and generates low percentage shots.

An opinion which cannot be reconciled with the fact he has the 2nd highest shooting percentage on the team, and the 2nd most 5 on 5 goals, behind only Simmonds who has played 16 extra games.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...d=22&type=individual&sort=ishpct&sortdir=DESC

 

[Curufinwe]

... which would be good enough for 10th on the Flames among forwards. Relatively good isn't necessarily good. I am a Couturier fan, but he has been horrible this year.

By this logic, we should trade Giroux for Kris Versteeg

 

[BillDineen]

By this logic, we should trade Giroux for Kris Versteeg

No. Not saying anything other than showing how bad their p/60 is.

 

[Crescent Street]

You're the one looking at things in a bubble of not even 50 games, and ignoring the three previous full seasons.



An opinion which cannot be reconciled with the fact he has the 2nd highest shooting percentage on the team, and the 2nd most 5 on 5 goals, behind only Simmonds who has played 16 extra games.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...d=22&type=individual&sort=ishpct&sortdir=DESC

Look, I appreciate your dedication to statistics. But the fact remains, Couturier is not a dynamic player in the offensive end. I'm sure you of all people can understand the fickle nature of shooting percentage, and how much of a story it doesn't tell about the player. Are you seriously trying to tell us that Couturier should be considered a threat because he has the 2nd highest shooting percentage on the team? He has 78 shots... lol.

I want to go back to my post and understand your thoughts as to where Courturier stands as a 2nd line center against the rest of the league, and what teams would realistically take him over their current option. I listed 6 teams that would consider Coots an upgrade, leaving you 24 other better options. This is part of my reasoning into him being suited far better in a 3rd line role.

The other thing I don't understand is when people claim his unproductive season is due to being on a bad team, but then say "he's 2nd best on the team in 5on5 scoring" - how can you use these metrics and say he's a victim on one end, and then use the same poor team to compare him to and say he's doing well? It's basically saying he's bad, but not as bad as the rest of the team.

 

[1865]

I don't see how someone can watch this team this season and come to this conclusion.

They really need an upgrade at C. It's crystal clear at this point.

Well, yes. The wings, D and netminders do need an overhaul too though.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I contend that Couturier is too conservative in the offensive zone. He is indeed a strong guy on the wall and a good cycle player. But too often he defaults to the ultra-safe wheel around the boards to the defenseman or a low-percentage shot when you'd like to see him create.

I can't recall one instance this year of a well-threaded pass through the middle of the ice to a teammate, or a strong cut to the inside of his defenseman for a successful scoring chance. He keeps it on the perimeter and generates low percentage shots.

Maybe that's what Hak wants, I don't know. But it's not working.

All of our centers do that. It's literally Hakstol's system. It emphasizes point shots and active defensemen. Wingers have more of a role than centers as well. Centers spend a lot of time as glorified puck fetchers for their perimeter cycle.