Post-Game Talk: #60| Capitals at FLYERS | Wednesday, February 22, 2017

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,858
86,252
Nova Scotia
My goal here is to eliminate this fog of propaganda that surrounds this player. He is playing absolutely marginal hockey and has been for well over a year.

Here's what I think happened: we all (myself included) fell in love with the guy in that Pittsburgh series. We decided "here's what he already is - elite defensively and capable of a hat trick on the road in the playoffs - and here's what he will be: 60 points and Selkes".

None of that has materialized, and in fact he has regressed. Nobody even refutes these basic points: he is not a great skater (or at least, his speed and burst are average to below average). He can't shoot. He can't pass. He doesn't create.

I am also not sure whether he's elite defensively, or merely responsible and high-IQ.

I just want real critical discussion about him Jojo, that's all. He's not what we hoped he'd be.

The bolded is simply not true though.

He was on a 60 point pace last March and April combined
He was on a 60+ point pace from Nov 28th to the end of last season.

Christ....now he isn't elite defensively. Apparently team North America and Team Canada think so because you know, he wasn't there for his offense right?

No you don't, because when people show you facts like 5 v 5 play, you ignore them. The WHOLE team has declined this year. Fluke? Or coaching has caused this?

Konecny was playing well getting points with Couts....Couts gets hurt...his points plummet.

People have shown that other player produce more when they play with Couts, but you ignore that. Maybe Couts covering for them defensively allows them to cheat offensively.

It's just funny when you see certain poster only focus on one guy in a critical way when things are going bad. Look at JTown....disappeared all last year because he was "busy", now he is back to his all out critique of Couts as well.

And fwiw, if we get a scoring C, and Couts becomes the shutdown C, that's fine with me. But if we got a defensive C and he could have the shackles taken off, I am fine with that too.
 

Delete99991

Registered User
May 9, 2013
1,173
278
This discussion is only just now becoming a discussion on this forum.

Up until now, anyone daring to question the player got half a dozen doses of that obnoxious snark the Coots gang specializes in. Discussion over.

I'll tell you this - when he plays well, I'll come into a PGT and say so. Haven't had many chances to do that lately.
 

Delete99991

Registered User
May 9, 2013
1,173
278
Tripod, let's eliminate superlatives and eliminate assumptions about this metric being more important than that one.

Do you refute the following:

"he is not a great skater (or at least, his speed and burst are average to below average). He can't shoot. He can't pass. He doesn't create."
 

Striiker

Earthquake Survivor
Jun 2, 2013
89,739
155,842
Pennsylvania
This discussion is only just now becoming a discussion on this forum.

Up until now, anyone daring to question the player got half a dozen doses of that obnoxious snark the Coots gang specializes in. Discussion over.

I'll tell you this - when he plays well, I'll come into a PGT and say so. Haven't had many chances to do that lately.

You already proved that last paragraph to be a lie. :laugh:
 

Delete99991

Registered User
May 9, 2013
1,173
278
That's legitimate. I understand that others see more in 14 than I do, but I have been stunned by his consistent mediocrity this season.

I love the franchise and watch every game from halfway around the world because I want em to do well. He's a vital player with a 6 year deal. I am, above all, disappointed.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
128,087
166,007
Armored Train
Tripod, let's eliminate superlatives and eliminate assumptions about this metric being more important than that one.

Do you refute the following:

"he is not a great skater (or at least, his speed and burst are average to below average). He can't shoot. He can't pass. He doesn't create."

If all of your last sentence were true, then he would be dragging his teammates down. That is the opposite of what actually has happened for years.
 

JojoTheWhale

CORN BOY
May 22, 2008
33,781
105,370
My goal here is to eliminate this fog of propaganda that surrounds this player. He is playing absolutely marginal hockey and has been for well over a year.

Here's what I think happened: we all (myself included) fell in love with the guy in that Pittsburgh series. We decided "here's what he already is - elite defensively and capable of a hat trick on the road in the playoffs - and here's what he will be: 60 points and Selkes".

None of that has materialized, and in fact he has regressed. Nobody even refutes these basic points: he is not a great skater (or at least, his speed and burst are average to below average). He can't shoot. He can't pass. He doesn't create.

I am also not sure whether he's elite defensively, or merely responsible and high-IQ.

I just want real critical discussion about him Jojo, that's all. He's not what we hoped he'd be.

Got it. Thank you.

I get why he's so controversial. He sort of exists at a crossroads between stats and the eye test. I would almost call him a forward version of Muzzin in that both elicit the, "He's definitely good, but not as good as those numbers say," from those that don't see value in shot metrics.

With that being said, is it possible that he may only be an average skater, and he may not have a particuarly good shot, and he may only be an average passer, but he still puts the sum of it all together with some fantastic board work and the cliched hockey intelligence and makes it all work for more than the sum of his parts?

For the record, I think it's vital to not throw out any source of good information. I get my dander up when either side of the tired debate says the other is worthless. With that being said, I do believe that shot metrics help us understand so many of the things our eyes see, but our brains filter out. I'm trying to avoid using a statistical argument, but I do just want to point out that he shows quite well in ES primary shot assists in relation to his teammates (2nd to Giroux in many aspects), so he can't be THAT poor of a passer.

This brings me around to the question of being a disappointment. He's such a damn weird player in regard to how he was developed. I absolutely do believe they stunted his offensive growth, much as they're now doing to Morin to a lesser degree.

I remember draft day. The talk was "We may have gotten a future 1C!" If you were of that opinion, then you would feel he's a disappointment. It's tough for me to put much stock in what my opinion was at the time because I didn't watch Juniors in 2011. My opinion was mostly formed based upon the opinions of the media, so my expectations don't mean a damn thing.

So instead, I prefer to say that we have ways to proxy possession, those measures are more reliable than point production, and he shows quite well in them against quite tough competition. That's enough for me to call him an effective player. Give me enough effective players and I'm going to win a lot of games, no matter what each can and can't do.
 

Delete99991

Registered User
May 9, 2013
1,173
278
Now Jojo, that's what I'm talking about. Great post.

That crossroads point is correct, and perhaps the heart of the matter. I watch the team with a certain expectation of Flyers-style entertainment. Couturier just isn't the kind of player I grew up loving in O&B.

Of course this doesn't mean he's not a good player, or a valuable player. But I've now watched enough of Sean over the years to have a feel for what he is and what he isn't. His intelligence out there is why he's an NHL player, but it's perhaps a burden to him offensively. He plays safe hockey, and at this level his talent isn't enough for that to generate consistent offense.

I have tried (and failed, evidently) to contract the discussion of Couturier to the bare essentials. Skating, shooting, passing, creating. In these four areas I see little upside. At this point, those on the other side of the argument break out the numbers that suit them (all of which include last season, statistically his best). That's where we'll have an impasse. I care about wins and losses, and who contributes to which outcome. I am not convinced he will drive wins for this hockey team.

He may help avoid a few losses as they improve, but that's not good enough relative to what we expect of the player.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,858
86,252
Nova Scotia
Now Jojo, that's what I'm talking about. Great post.

That crossroads point is correct, and perhaps the heart of the matter. I watch the team with a certain expectation of Flyers-style entertainment. Couturier just isn't the kind of player I grew up loving in O&B.

Of course this doesn't mean he's not a good player, or a valuable player. But I've now watched enough of Sean over the years to have a feel for what he is and what he isn't. His intelligence out there is why he's an NHL player, but it's perhaps a burden to him offensively. He plays safe hockey, and at this level his talent isn't enough for that to generate consistent offense.

I have tried (and failed, evidently) to contract the discussion of Couturier to the bare essentials. Skating, shooting, passing, creating. In these four areas I see little upside. At this point, those on the other side of the argument break out the numbers that suit them (all of which include last season, statistically his best). That's where we'll have an impasse. I care about wins and losses, and who contributes to which outcome. I am not convinced he will drive wins for this hockey team.

He may help avoid a few losses as they improve, but that's not good enough relative to what we expect of the player.

So did you watch any Flyers games last year from Dec until the end of the season? Because despite being slow, can't shoot, can't pass, and can't create, he was on a 60+ point pace spanning 5 months.

Or were you with JTown and were busy too?
 

Crescent Street

Saturday Nite Hockey
Sep 19, 2004
3,171
1,027
Long Island
Ok, so no attitude at all. This is so all over the place I can't keep track of it anymore. What do you guys want Couturier to do that he doesn't? Please don't say points.

I want what is out of Sean's control. I want him in a 3rd line checking role where his hockey skills are utilized best.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,619
16,426
I really like Couturier.

But his offensive game simply hasn't developed like I hoped it would.

As a 3rd line center, he's about as good as it gets in the NHL and one who can log a lot more minutes than most 3rd line centers.

As a scoring line center, he's not ideal, IMO. You can get by with him there, because he does a lot of things well, like drive possession, and he's not an anchor to his linemates. He just doesn't add the type of offensive threat you would ideally like for your 2nd scoring line pivot on a good team.

I also think he plays hurt a lot. The guy puts in a ton of hard minutes against top notch competition; is always positionally sound; and quietly takes a beating.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,858
86,252
Nova Scotia
I look forward to when the team is producing again, and Couturier is a clear 2C again.

Last year in the poll section the question was asked if Couts could be a #2C in a playoff team. We answered that one.

I have no issue saying he is having a poor year points wise. Who isn't? Regardless, we still need a C for the next few years to bridge the gap to the kids. It doesn't need to be a 50-60 point guy like some suggest. It just needs to be either a point getting C, or a defensively strong one. Just give our top 2 C some help.

But certainly if we somehow added the 50-60 point C, like a RNH, we should become a harder team to play against.
 

Crescent Street

Saturday Nite Hockey
Sep 19, 2004
3,171
1,027
Long Island
I really like Couturier.

But his offensive game simply hasn't developed like I hoped it would.

As a 3rd line center, he's about as good as it gets in the NHL and one who can log a lot more minutes than most 3rd line centers.

As a scoring line center, he's not ideal, IMO. You can get by with him there, because he does a lot of things well, like drive possession, and he's not an anchor to his linemates. He just doesn't add the type of offensive threat you would ideally like for your 2nd scoring line pivot on a good team.

I also think he plays hurt a lot. The guy puts in a ton of hard minutes against top notch competition; is always positionally sound; and quietly takes a beating.

10000% spot on and should really close out this discussion.
 

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