50mil vs. 69mil

[jbeck5]

The point made a while back when you first made the argument is that we don't have the guys in Bingo to adequately replace the guys you hate. When you named who can come up as replacements you mostly named guys who are already going to be a part of the big club, and therefore will not be replacing anyone.

If you want to argue that certain players should not have been re-signed to begin with then that is your right. But there is a world of difference between complaining about who we have and figuring out who would have been a better signing at the time of the respective deals.

If you are wishing for mythical top 2 line talent to burst down our door, come to our club, and agree to play in our budget then all the best to you with that. I would suggest at least considering that getting such talent means giving up a pile of assets in a trade (e.g. Ryan), or overpaying through the nose with cash we do not have to land one as an aging UFA.

So were in agreement that our budget is killing us. I just think a simple not resign Phillips/Neil and have their spot replaced by the young guys coming in, and using that cap space to sign another MacArthur type player would make a lot more sense. I don't see how you think spending a quarter of your budget on Neil,condra,greening,michalek, and Phillips is a recipe for success.

 

[StefanW]

So were in agreement that our budget is killing us. I just think a simple not resign Phillips/Neil and have their spot replaced by the young guys coming in, and using that cap space to sign another MacArthur type player would make a lot more sense. I don't see how you think spending a quarter of your budget on Neil,condra,greening,michalek, and Phillips is a recipe for success.

That is what you hope for, but not the standard. A MacArthur type signing pans out for a team as well as it did for the Sens maybe once or twice a year. Most of the guys that seem great either play up to expectations without exceeding them, or they don't live up to their contract.

Saying we should get a UFA like MacArthur every time we have free cash is like saying we should draft a guy like Karlsson every time we have a first round pick. Yeah that would be great, but not going to happen.

 

[jbeck5]

A quarter of our budget is spent on michalek,greening,condra,Neil, and Phillips and I would rather we put that money to better use and that's wishful thinking?

We shouldn't overpay for bottom 6 guys when we have them in abundance. If were to overpay, do it for top 6/top4 talent.

 

[We Want the Cup 2010]

A quarter of our budget is spent on michalek,greening,condra,Neil, and Phillips and I would rather we put that money to better use and that's wishful thinking?

We shouldn't overpay for bottom 6 guys when we have them in abundance. If were to overpay, do it for top 6/top4 talent.

A quarter of the roster(UFA's/veterans) is taken up by a quarter of the payroll. I think you're nitpicking. You can't have an entire team on entry level contracts.

 

[WhiteLight*]

A quarter of the roster(UFA's/veterans) is taken up by a quarter of the payroll. I think you're nitpicking. You can't have an entire team on entry level contracts.

So the worst quarter of the roster takes 1/4 of the payroll. Does that mean the top quarter gets only 1/4 of the payroll too? Karlsson, Turris, Ryan, MacArthur and Methot don't make 1/4 of the payroll

More money is given at the top, therefore you have to be cheap at the bottom, not generous, which the Sens have been

 

[Sensinitis]

would you be happier if he said potential .45 PPPG player?

You should read my other posts too.

 

[aragorn]

I think the result of the internal budget is that we had to trade Spezza & couldn't re-sign both Hemsky & Michalek. If it was not for the internal budget we could have had two good experienced top lines & an emerging good young 3rd line in Zibanejad, Stone & Hoffman. Melnyk's money problems are affecting who re-signs in Ottawa, who walks & who won't come here. On the other hand they could still have a decent team but I think they need another top 6 forward & they need all their players including the young guys to play to their potential.

 

[Xspyrit]

A quarter of our budget is spent on michalek,greening,condra,Neil, and Phillips and I would rather we put that money to better use and that's wishful thinking?

We shouldn't overpay for bottom 6 guys when we have them in abundance. If were to overpay, do it for top 6/top4 talent.

11.3 is a quarter of our budget? I think you meant 1/5... 5 players who represent close to 1/4 of the spots available

And if you take out the 4.0 of the guy who has scored at a 25 goals pace in his 5 years with the team, it's 7.3 for 4 players. That's not a ton of money for role players... Now argue that they're a lot worse than other teams role players all you want but we are giving you the facts

 

[jbeck5]

11.3 is a quarter of our budget? I think you meant 1/5... 5 players who represent close to 1/4 of the spots available

And if you take out the 4.0 of the guy who has scored at a 25 goals pace in his 5 years with the team, it's 7.3 for 4 players. That's not a ton of money for role players... Now argue that they're a lot worse than other teams role players all you want but we are giving you the facts

2.65+1.9+1.25+2.5+4=12.3


Our payroll is 52 million.

12.3x4=49.2

12.3x5=61.5

Its a lot closer to a1/4 of our budget then 1/5. In fact its 1/4.2

Were likely to have a 23 man roster.

That means 1/4.2 of the cap going to 1/4.6 of the roster. Which means those players make more then the average player on our team despite them being the worst on the team(except michalek).

 

[Cosmix]

I think the result of the internal budget is that we had to trade Spezza & couldn't re-sign both Hemsky & Michalek. If it was not for the internal budget we could have had two good experienced top lines & an emerging good young 3rd line in Zibanejad, Stone & Hoffman. Melnyk's money problems are affecting who re-signs in Ottawa, who walks & who won't come here. On the other hand they could still have a decent team but I think they need another top 6 forward & they need all their players including the young guys to play to their potential.

I agree with this but also believe we need to improve our defencemen. I hope the young ones we have can improve ( Cowen, Wiercioch, Ceci and Gryba).

 

[Xspyrit]

2.65+1.9+1.25+2.5+4=12.3


Our payroll is 52 million.

12.3x4=49.2

12.3x5=61.5

Its a lot closer to a1/4 of our budget then 1/5. In fact its 1/4.2

Were likely to have a 23 man roster.

That means 1/4.2 of the cap going to 1/4.6 of the roster. Which means those players make more then the average player on our team despite them being the worst on the team(except michalek).

It's much easier to do maths with the real numbers though... and we are both working with wrong numbers... I had 11.3 instead of 12.3 (well I was chilling in Playa Del Carmen with my IPhone so it was an half-assed effort lol)

Salary payroll is at $52,845,000 right now + Lehner to come. So it will be around 55 millions in fact. 12.3/55 = 22.36% (or 1/4.5)

Not counting Lehner is like saying Montreal will be among the lowest spenders too (PK?)

5/23 = 21.7% of the spots on the team

So this group of 5 players well represent the average salary on the team (2.46). What you are not taking in consideration though is the number of contracts on ELCs (Stone, Chiasson, Hoffman, Zibanejad, Ceci and RFAs years (Ryan, Turris, Smith, Cowen, Wiercioch, Karlsson, Lehner)... The group of 5 players you were talking about are all on UFA years, which is why they earn more money that you would like. Sorry but that's just the way this market/business go. If you can't acknowledge that, then I don't know if I should follow up in this conversation.

Now if you take out Michalek who shouldn't be part of this group (even if you dislike him as a player), since he is a guy that scored 96 goals in 314 games for the Sens (25 goals pace per 82 games), that's 8.3 for 4 veteran players.

8.3/55 = 15.09% (or 1/6.5) of the payroll for 4 players who occupy 17.39% of the spots (4/23 = 17.39%)

Now if you take into account all the ELCs and RFA years... those 4 guys you dislike that much make a lot less than the probable projected "average salary" on the team. Reality is those 4 guys will surely be gone when younger guys get raises. They are stop gaps at this point, veteran depth, which is never too useless for a young rebuilding team.

But whatever floats your boat I guess. People see what they want to see.

 

[OttawaSenators11]

12M+ is a fantastic chunk of payroll when it comes to our franchise.

Quality or quantity.

Much rather have the 12M over the players Jbeck mentioned.

It's sad that we have to nit pick contracts that aren't a lot of money, but that's the reality with our franchise right now.

 

[HavlatMach9]

what would a competitive team even look like if we trim the depth players that take up about 10m?

 

[WhiteLight*]

what would a competitive team even look like if we trim the depth players that take up about 10m?

XXXXX / Mika Zibanejad ($0.894m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m)
Clarke MacArthur ($3.250m) / Kyle Turris ($3.500m) / Mark Stone ($0.603m)
Derek Roy ($1.000m) / David Legwand ($3.000m) / Alex Chiasson ($0.867m)
Mike Hoffman ($0.750m) / Zack Smith ($1.888m) / Erik Condra ($1.250m)
Jesse Winchester ($0.900m)

Jared Cowen ($3.100m) / Erik Karlsson ($6.500m)
Marc Methot ($3.000m) / Eric Gryba ($1.250m)
Patrick Wiercioch ($2.000m) / Cody Ceci ($0.894m)
Mark Borowiecki ($0.575m)

Robin Lehner ($2.500m)
Justin Peters ($0.950m)

CAP PAYROLL: $43,770,833; BONUSES: $1,628,333; CAP SPACE: $25,229,167


The fat is trimmed. Gives you about $7M to spend on a forward. Much better team, with or without said $7M forward

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

XXXXX / Mika Zibanejad ($0.894m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m)
Clarke MacArthur ($3.250m) / Kyle Turris ($3.500m) / Mark Stone ($0.603m)
Derek Roy ($1.000m) / David Legwand ($3.000m) / Alex Chiasson ($0.867m)
Mike Hoffman ($0.750m) / Zack Smith ($1.888m) / Erik Condra ($1.250m)
Jesse Winchester ($0.900m)

Jared Cowen ($3.100m) / Erik Karlsson ($6.500m)
Marc Methot ($3.000m) / Eric Gryba ($1.250m)
Patrick Wiercioch ($2.000m) / Cody Ceci ($0.894m)
Mark Borowiecki ($0.575m)

Robin Lehner ($2.500m)
Justin Peters ($0.950m)

CAP PAYROLL: $43,770,833; BONUSES: $1,628,333; CAP SPACE: $25,229,167


The fat is trimmed. Gives you about $7M to spend on a forward. Much better team, with or without said $7M forward

Michalek is on a fair deal, you honestly think this team is better off without him with no other vets to replace him?

Come on

 

[Caeldan]

DJ ZBad is not a first line centre.
At best right now he's a second third line tweener depending on how much sheltering he can have (which on that team is very little).

Also why did you suddenly drop out Anderson and put in Peters (who I think is already signed anyway?). Lehner is not a starting goalie yet - and the worst thing would be someone like Peters being the backup

 

[Cosmix]

DJ ZBad is not a first line centre.
At best right now he's a second third line tweener depending on how much sheltering he can have (which on that team is very little).

Also why did you suddenly drop out Anderson and put in Peters (who I think is already signed anyway?). Lehner is not a starting goalie yet - and the worst thing would be someone like Peters being the backup

I agree. Zibanejad is a third line centre now with potential to be a first line centre if he can start scoring at a regular pace. I suspect and hope he improves this year to a number two level (about 60 points) and break out in a year or two to become a number one (ppg level).

I believe Roy is also signed, right?

 

[Xspyrit]

12M+ is a fantastic chunk of payroll when it comes to our franchise.

Quality or quantity.

Much rather have the 12M over the players Jbeck mentioned.

It's sad that we have to nit pick contracts that aren't a lot of money, but that's the reality with our franchise right now.

12.3 for those 5 players. With who do you realistically replace them with? And only veterans on UFA years, we have enough ELCs and RFAs as it is right now.

And yes it sucks to have an internal budget, our life as fans would be much more easier if we could spend 10 millions more per year

XXXXX / Mika Zibanejad ($0.894m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m)
Clarke MacArthur ($3.250m) / Kyle Turris ($3.500m) / Mark Stone ($0.603m)
Derek Roy ($1.000m) / David Legwand ($3.000m) / Alex Chiasson ($0.867m)
Mike Hoffman ($0.750m) / Zack Smith ($1.888m) / Erik Condra ($1.250m)
Jesse Winchester ($0.900m)

Jared Cowen ($3.100m) / Erik Karlsson ($6.500m)
Marc Methot ($3.000m) / Eric Gryba ($1.250m)
Patrick Wiercioch ($2.000m) / Cody Ceci ($0.894m)
Mark Borowiecki ($0.575m)

Robin Lehner ($2.500m)
Justin Peters ($0.950m)

CAP PAYROLL: $43,770,833; BONUSES: $1,628,333; CAP SPACE: $25,229,167


The fat is trimmed. Gives you about $7M to spend on a forward. Much better team, with or without said $7M forward

Derek Roy would have to sign here for that amount. Him on the team would mean less opportunities for guys like Lazar and Hoffman... Maybe the team has more aspirations for then than Derek Roy?

We had Winchester before, he signed with the Avalanche. More often than not, players don't play 2 times with the same team, it's kind of rare actually.

You also downgrade goaltending to Anderson/Lehner to Lehner/Peters... that's really young and unexperienced. What happens to Lehner when he was struggling last year if Andy isn't here?

Also, defensive depth took a hit, you go from Phillips/Gryba/Wiercioch/Borowiecki to Gryba/Wiercioch/Borowiecki/Claesson

Finally, who is the forward we could have realistically signed? Knowing that Michalek has scored at a 25 goals pace per 82 with the Sens, you must have really high expectations for that forward, so who exactly?

Oh, one more thing as already mentioned, Peters is under contract with the Caps for the next 2 seasons. We are talking about reality here, not armchair GMing, which some of you seem to excel at.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Michalek is on a fair deal, you honestly think this team is better off without him with no other vets to replace him?

Come on

I'd rather not have Michalek at all no matter the price. The way he plays is disgusting. Yes, relatively speaking, he's a decent finisher around the net and can shoot. But that's the only part of his game that I ''like'' (he's not even that good at it).

He's not productive when he uses his speed; rarely looks fast out there. All he does is go north-south-north-south with no creativity in his game. He's extremely soft with a non-existant board game. His puck control and vision are pathetic. He has very limited puck possession time; he rarely controls the puck in the offensive zone and the puck bounces off his stick immediately it seems. And now he's bad defensively too.

Of course I want someone to replace him. See the XXXXX in the lineup

DJ ZBad is not a first line centre.
At best right now he's a second third line tweener depending on how much sheltering he can have (which on that team is very little).

Also why did you suddenly drop out Anderson and put in Peters (who I think is already signed anyway?). Lehner is not a starting goalie yet - and the worst thing would be someone like Peters being the backup

ZBad on the first line is to spread out scoring and chemistry nothing more.

Peters was to illustrate options available if Anderson wasn't there. Montoya, Greiss, Peters, etc. are good/great backups that could have been had for cheap. The goaltending would not have missed a beat

 

[WhiteLight*]

Derek Roy would have to sign here for that amount.

I would have went as high as 2 probably. Hopefully 1.5 though

Him on the team would mean less opportunities for guys like Lazar and Hoffman...

Roy would take Greening's spot.

Maybe the team has more aspirations for then than Derek Roy?

Not sure what this means, but if Roy is taking the spot of a lesser player than him, it's all good.

We had Winchester before, he signed with the Avalanche. More often than not, players don't play 2 times with the same team, it's kind of rare actually.

Cool. I don't think I would have let him go in the first place. I would have offered him more than 900K (what he got with the Avs) to come back.

You also downgrade goaltending to Anderson/Lehner to Lehner/Peters... that's really young and unexperienced.

slight downgrade if at all to save money. worth it

What happens to Lehner when he was struggling last year if Andy isn't here?

Then Peters goes in. Peters is a solid goalie who had a solid year. There was also many good backup goalies available on the market this year, pick your favourite if you don't like Peters.

Anderson did NOT save the day whatsoever last year. He only stepped in for Lehner when Lehner was on a roll and thus killed his momentum. I don't remember Anderosn playing well for any stretch of games tbh.

Also, defensive depth took a hit, you go from Phillips/Gryba/Wiercioch/Borowiecki to Gryba/Wiercioch/Borowiecki/Claesson

Phillips becoming Boro is an upgrade imo. Claesson being an injury call up is perfect. Those 7D I had + Claesson would make me pretty happy.

Finally, who is the forward we could have realistically signed? Knowing that Michalek has scored at a 25 goals pace per 82 with the Sens, you must have really high expectations for that forward, so who exactly?

Michalek has played with Spezza his whole Sens career. He had 17 goals last year WITH Spezza. In his last 122 games with the Sens, Michalek has played at a 17 goal/82 game pace.

I don't expect more than 15-20 from Michalek this year, maybe less because Spezza is gone.

Jussi Jokinen, Vrbata, even Grabovski, Mathieu Perreault, Brad Richards,.... all better options than Michalek

Oh, one more thing as already mentioned, Peters is under contract with the Caps for the next 2 seasons. We are talking about reality here, not armchair GMing, which some of you seem to excel at.

He was a UFA earlier in the summer and easily could have signed in the event that Anderson as not here. Offer him 1.2 or so and I don't see why he wouldn't sign. Also, there were many goalie options

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

I'd rather not have Michalek at all no matter the price. The way he plays is disgusting. Yes, relatively speaking, he's a decent finisher around the net and can shoot. But that's the only part of his game that I ''like'' (he's not even that good at it).

He's not productive when he uses his speed; rarely looks fast out there. All he does is go north-south-north-south with no creativity in his game. He's extremely soft with a non-existant board game. His puck control and vision are pathetic. He has very limited puck possession time; he rarely controls the puck in the offensive zone and the puck bounces off his stick immediately it seems. And now he's bad defensively too.

Of course I want someone to replace him. See the XXXXX in the lineup



ZBad on the first line is to spread out scoring and chemistry nothing more.

Peters was to illustrate options available if Anderson wasn't there. Montoya, Greiss, Peters, etc. are good/great backups that could have been had for cheap. The goaltending would not have missed a beat

You just decide that you hate some players, and nothing at all is going to change your mind. It's kinda funny.

The bolded part is just the most ridonculous out of it all. Michalek and Anderson old, therefore they suck and a younger guy will magically sign with the team and be better. Sens save money, which they can use to to magically sign some other impact player, get younger and better because young is everything. ????? Profit.

yaaaaay

 

[WhiteLight*]

You just decide that you hate some players, and nothing at all is going to change your mind. It's kinda funny.

The bolded part is just the most ridonculous out of it all. Michalek and Anderson old, therefore they suck and a younger guy will magically sign with the team and be better. Sens save money, which they can use to to magically sign some other impact player, get younger and better because young is everything. ????? Profit.

yaaaaay

Michalke fails the eye and stats test


Anderson does not really suck, he is only worse than Lehner. No sense in having a 3.5M backup

 

[StefanW]

Craig Anderson last season: 25-16-8, Save % .911
Robin Lehner last season: 12-15-6, Save % .913

Craig Anderson with Sens: 81-52-17, Save % .920
Robin Lehner sith Sens: 21-24-10, Save % .918

Craig Anderson career: 168-135-26, Save % .915
Robin Lehner career (same as with Sens category): 21-24-10, Save % .918

Robin Lehner has the potential to be better than Andy, but he is not there yet. I do think the Sens will let Andy walk simply because they cannot afford to tie up enough budget space in goaltending to keep him. However, I think it has to be said that getting rid of Andy is a huge gamble. If Andy is out we instantly go from having solid goaltending for the first stretch in franchise history (since Andy got here, really), to pinning our hopes on a young goalie with 61 games of NHL experience and with an overall career losing record.

 

[Sensinitis]

We aren't pinning our hopes on a young goalie with 61 games of NHL experience and with an overall career losing record if we let Andy walk a year from now.

Lehner, by then, could have 100+ games and 40+ wins. Obviously still relatively inexperienced, but much better.

Also keep in mind we'll probably get an experienced backup ala Auld like we did a few years back, who could take over for about 20 games a year.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Michalke fails the eye and stats test


Anderson does not really suck, he is only worse than Lehner. No sense in having a 3.5M backup

Hard to take you seriously when u say stuff like this.