50mil vs. 69mil

[jbeck5]

If Greening plays like he did last season, he should be around 1, if he plays like he did in the lockout year, and the playoffs, he's got a decent contract. One bad year does not make a career.

Why? is it a production issue? He produced more pts and as many goals as any of Lewis, Clifford or Nolan on LA, similar numbers to Boyle and Moore on NYR, as well as Handzus and Bickell on Chicago, Prust, Moen, and Bournival on Mtl. He was an Even player despite only really playing on an awful team with the spare parts. The guy pushes the puck in the right direction, not a bad cap hit for what he does.

Agreed that Neil is past his prime. Not really worried about overpaying him 900k because we don't have any great options to replace him, and I still think he's better than what we could find UFA at 1m.

I think we'll see him bounce back a bit. His skating was steadily improving as the season went on imo. He can be a 40-50 pts guy, and chip in ~20 goals if all goes well, and if he does that he's well worth the money. If he puts up 30is (he got 39 last year and paced at 50 the year before) I'll agree 4 mil is overpayment, but I don't think you get a veteran who be a threat for 20 goals at 2 mil.

Phillips certainly isn't what he used to be, but I think he was exposed on our team last year, being asked to play beyond what his role should be. In a 5-6 role where he belongs with PK duties, I think he'd look a lot better. He's being paid as much for what he provides off the ice, you won't get that at 1 mil, or as a 7th D.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying but IMO you can fulfill these guys' roles fairly easily internally or on a ufa who gets passed over and will take less. I feel like you can take the crappiest 5-6 players, replace them with cheaper contracts and use the millions in savings to sign an actual top 4D or top 6 forward. I would go this route considering our budget is the cap floor.

 

[Micklebot]

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying but IMO you can fulfill these guys' roles fairly easily internally or on a ufa who gets passed over and will take less. I feel like you can take the crappiest 5-6 players, replace them with cheaper contracts and use the millions in savings to sign an actual top 4D or top 6 forward. I would go this route considering our budget is the cap floor.

We could probably sign 2 D at league minimum and get ourselves a solid top 4 playing them 50 mins a night like NYI did in 2003. In the end, they broke down because that 3rd pair had to play mins every now and then, and the top 4 couldn't all manage >25 mins a night.

We could run with 3 lines and barely play our 4th, but again, the same thing will happen. There is value to having depth when you play 82 games plus a postseason (we hope).

I think the secret to performing on a budget is developing your young players before getting them in the line-up; no learning on the job.

There's no questioning we could have gotten better value for some of our contracts though. But you can't always sign sweetheart deals.

 

[Sensinitis]

Something tells me you're the kind of person that is never satisfied with anything. Be careful, this is a double-edged sword

Personally, I don't dislike any player since they are wearing my favorite team jersey. I'll dislike them later when they play for other teams. Also, Melnyk money is not my money so I could care about how much they earn. Anyone has the right to make money, this is not a crime.

Meh, I dislike Condra.

I used to like Neil and Phillips, but I can't say I dislike them. I just don't like them anymore cuz they suck now.

That's pretty much it. Greening I can live with.

 

[jbeck5]

We could probably sign 2 D at league minimum and get ourselves a solid top 4 playing them 50 mins a night like NYI did in 2003. In the end, they broke down because that 3rd pair had to play mins every now and then, and the top 4 couldn't all manage >25 mins a night.

We could run with 3 lines and barely play our 4th, but again, the same thing will happen. There is value to having depth when you play 82 games plus a postseason (we hope).

I think the secret to performing on a budget is developing your young players before getting them in the line-up; no learning on the job.

There's no questioning we could have gotten better value for some of our contracts though. But you can't always sign sweetheart deals.

We have enough depth to not overpay those guys like we said, get a good top 2 pairings and top 3 lines and fill the last line with guys like smith,pageau, veteran 1 million dollar pick up we often see, and guys like gryba/weircioch/borowiecki on our bottom pair.

 

[Xspyrit]

Right now it looks like the sens won't make the playoffs but won't be a lottery team. They won't spend money to improve the roster. Why should we be satisfied with finishing...say...22nd in the league and not have a real plan and not want to spend more then 25th in payroll?

Yeah, I'm satisfied...

Spending is another subject... I would want the team to be a big market and spend to the cap every year too, but I have realized long ago that it is not possible unless the owner wants to throw his own cash for fun. I would want to be young forever too but I don't know yet if it's possible. I would like a personal helicopter too.

Only hope we have is to open a windows to contend and then go all in for a few years (as long as the team is a perennial playoffs contender and win rounds almost every year)

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying but IMO you can fulfill these guys' roles fairly easily internally or on a ufa who gets passed over and will take less. I feel like you can take the crappiest 5-6 players, replace them with cheaper contracts and use the millions in savings to sign an actual top 4D or top 6 forward. I would go this route considering our budget is the cap floor.

I don't know if you people realize it but every year, for every team, the same thing could be said. There's always a few players that you wish you could replace by cheaper, faster, younger, better etc players. It's called wishful thinking because players sign contracts. They don't all live up to their contracts, like normal people in society

We just let go Matt Kassian, Stephane Da Costa, Joe Corvo, Cory Conacher, Ales Hemsky and Jason Spezza. Most (or maybe all who knows?) of these were identified by Sens brass to not be part of the future plans. Notice that they are all considered a combination of slow/soft players (except Kassian but way too slow). Still wish we kept Da Costa though. Sucks that we let him go because we didn't want to risk a few K$ if we had to pay him to play in the AHL

Meh, I dislike Condra.

I used to like Neil and Phillips, but I can't say I dislike them. I just don't like them anymore cuz they suck now.

That's pretty much it. Greening I can live with.

Maybe you don't like his face... lol I'm not a fan as well, Greening too. Never really liked Gryba but now that I know him more, seems like a great simple guy.

Neil and Phillips, I used to be a big fan of them and still am but of course I don't view their actual game the same as before. They did well enough to deserve my respect though. Who the **** I am that would give me the right to bash them?

 

[Caeldan]

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying but IMO you can fulfill these guys' roles fairly easily internally or on a ufa who gets passed over and will take less. I feel like you can take the crappiest 5-6 players, replace them with cheaper contracts and use the millions in savings to sign an actual top 4D or top 6 forward. I would go this route considering our budget is the cap floor.

Alright, so who are your easy replacements for?
Michalek (29yo) - 4M AAV, 3y, 4M salary this year. 20-30g/40-60p.
Greening (24yo) - 2.65M AAV, 3y, 2M salary this year. Potential 0.5ppg player in a grinding forward role. Has size if he can learn to use it.
Phillips (36yo) - 2.5M AAV, 2y, 2.5M salary this year. Heart and soul guy, solid 5/6 veteran presence on D. Community guy.
Neil (35yo) - 1.9M AAV, 3y, 2.1M salary this year. Enforcer, successfully toes the line towards intimidating hits, veteran leader.
Condra (27yo) - 1.25M AAV, 2y, 1.2M salary this year. Strong corsi numbers, solid PK role player on forward.

 

[Sensinitis]

How is Greening a potential 0.5PPG player if he's never hit 0.5PPG?

 

[Six Assets]

How is Greening a potential 0.5PPG player if he's never hit 0.5PPG?

potential is the key word.

I highly doubt greening get even close to 40 points ever.

 

[Sensinitis]

I don't think potential is a key word when the player is 28 yrs old and couldn't even hit 0.5PPG playing alongside Spezza.

 

[Micklebot]

How is Greening a potential 0.5PPG player if he's never hit 0.5PPG?

would you be happier if he said potential .45 PPPG player?

 

[jbeck5]

Alright, so who are your easy replacements for?
Michalek (29yo) - 4M AAV, 3y, 4M salary this year. 20-30g/40-60p.
Greening (24yo) - 2.65M AAV, 3y, 2M salary this year. Potential 0.5ppg player in a grinding forward role. Has size if he can learn to use it.
Phillips (36yo) - 2.5M AAV, 2y, 2.5M salary this year. Heart and soul guy, solid 5/6 veteran presence on D. Community guy.
Neil (35yo) - 1.9M AAV, 3y, 2.1M salary this year. Enforcer, successfully toes the line towards intimidating hits, veteran leader.
Condra (27yo) - 1.25M AAV, 2y, 1.2M salary this year. Strong corsi numbers, solid PK role player on forward.

Way too high on all counts.

 

[Dino Tkachuk]

Way too high on all counts.

We know you think they're all overpaid. I think what he is asking though is who, within our farm system, is going to replace their production/do what they do for a much cheaper price and how much money are you saving by doing this?

 

[jbeck5]

We know you think they're all overpaid. I think what he is asking though is who, within our farm system, is going to replace their production/do what they do for a much cheaper price and how much money are you saving by doing this?

Well I'm not going to be able to replace them cheaply if you re going on the crazy assumption that michalek will produce anywhere near 30 goals and 60 points and that greening is +40 point player without spezza.

If those guys were as good as what was being described I wouldn't have a problem. By they're not. Michalek won't hit 60 points or 30 goals. Greening won't hit over 40 points. Phillips won't be a good bottom pair d.

 

[Caeldan]

Well I'm not going to be able to replace them cheaply if you re going on the crazy assumption that michalek will produce anywhere near 30 goals and 60 points and that greening is +40 point player without spezza.

If those guys were as good as what was being described I wouldn't have a problem. By they're not. Michalek won't hit 60 points or 30 goals. Greening won't hit over 40 points. Phillips won't be a good bottom pair d.

Michalek will still get over 40p with 60 obviously being a high point.

Greening as pointed out so far has been near 0.5ppg outside of the past season and seeing as how his contract is backloaded, management expects improvement from him.

Phillips looked bad because he was forced to play 20+ minutes, but still makes any rookie he plays with look very calm and collected.

I don't think I over described any of the players - just listed what they've brought in the past with a short term view to the future.

So again I ask, if it's so easy to replace them - who are your picks?

Michalek I'm on record as saying that is the one I wish we hadn't done but who knows maybe he plays well with Legwand.

 

[Benjamin]

Ill be shocked if Michalek hits 40 points or Greening gets more then 25 points.

 

[jbeck5]

Michalek will still get over 40p with 60 obviously being a high point.

Greening as pointed out so far has been near 0.5ppg outside of the past season and seeing as how his contract is backloaded, management expects improvement from him.

Phillips looked bad because he was forced to play 20+ minutes, but still makes any rookie he plays with look very calm and collected.

I don't think I over described any of the players - just listed what they've brought in the past with a short term view to the future.

So again I ask, if it's so easy to replace them - who are your picks?

Michalek I'm on record as saying that is the one I wish we hadn't done but who knows maybe he plays well with Legwand.

The problem is all guys listed are on the decline outside of greening and condra. Looking at what they've done in the past doesn't make for an accurate prediction.

 

[Caeldan]

The problem is all guys listed are on the decline outside of greening and condra. Looking at what they've done in the past doesn't make for an accurate prediction.

Then provide your prediction/description of the role they play and who you would have replaced with

 

[jbeck5]

Then provide your prediction/description of the role they play and who you would have replaced with

I'd spend to the cap by bringing in 2 first line forwards and a first pairing d to push Phillips,Neil, and condra out of the lineup. Bring in vanek. Take out condra. Bring in niskanen. Take out Phillips. Bring in vrbata. Take out Neil. Much better team that can do damage in the east. Still lots of cap space.

 

[Caeldan]

I'd spend to the cap by bringing in 2 first line forwards and a first pairing d to push Phillips,Neil, and condra out of the lineup. Bring in vanek. Take out condra. Bring in niskanen. Take out Phillips. Bring in vrbata. Take out Neil. Much better team that can do damage in the east. Still lots of cap space.

That's a totally different plan than the statement you made saying that these guys can be replaced by better for cheaper.

 

[jbeck5]

That's a totally different plan than the statement you made saying that these guys can be replaced by better for cheaper.

Ok. Stone coming in full time can replace what greening has been doing. Big body that can play wing up and down your lineup.

Pageau can replace condra as a defensive smaller player.

Neils basically useless out there. Just clear him and replace him with a cheap top 6 option like Roy because we have enough bottom 6 guys. Not enough top 6 guys.

Phillips is supposed to be a rugged bottom pair defensive d. Borowiecki replaces that for cheaper.

Similar or slightly more money could have went to a much better player than michalek. Such as vrbata.

There. Then use the couple mill to get a scoring upgrade.

 

[StefanW]

Ok. Stone coming in full time can replace what greening has been doing. Big body that can play wing up and down your lineup.

Pageau can replace condra as a defensive smaller player.

Neils basically useless out there. Just clear him and replace him with a cheap top 6 option like Roy because we have enough bottom 6 guys. Not enough top 6 guys.

Phillips is supposed to be a rugged bottom pair defensive d. Borowiecki replaces that for cheaper.

Similar or slightly more money could have went to a much better player than michalek. Such as vrbata.

There. Then use the couple mill to get a scoring upgrade.

Stone is already projected to be in our lineup so he is not replacing anyone else. Pageau is a C, not a winger. When he was tried out on wing he did not do all that well, although time in Bingo could have helped that.

Borowiecki is already on a one way, so he is also counted as a part of our starting lineup for the big club. In this case you could argue that Phillips should not have been signed with Boro on a one way deal, but that is ancient history.

There are plenty of guys who spent time in Bingo on our projected roster already. I think the question is whether we can bring up even more Bingo guys to replace the players you personally dislike. At a certain point it would be tough to tell whether we are watching Binghamton or Ottawa.

 

[jbeck5]

Stone is already projected to be in our lineup so he is not replacing anyone else. Pageau is a C, not a winger. When he was tried out on wing he did not do all that well, although time in Bingo could have helped that.

Borowiecki is already on a one way, so he is also counted as a part of our starting lineup for the big club. In this case you could argue that Phillips should not have been signed with Boro on a one way deal, but that is ancient history.

There are plenty of guys who spent time in Bingo on our projected roster already. I think the question is whether we can bring up even more Bingo guys to replace the players you personally dislike. At a certain point it would be tough to tell whether we are watching Binghamton or Ottawa.

The players I dislike should have been not re-signed. Their roles replaced by who I named. Their salary and roster spot replaced by actual top 2 line talent pushing everyone down a spot into a role they can succeed in.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Pageau is a centre and Condra is a winger

 

[jbeck5]

Pageau is a centre and Condra is a winger

Cool. Having 2 centers on a line can come in handy. Lots of teams do this.

Pageau can take his pk duties. Maybe put pageau at center and smith on the wing. Smith has looked more dangerous offensively when he played wing with a center with some skill.

 

[StefanW]

The players I dislike should have been not re-signed. Their roles replaced by who I named. Their salary and roster spot replaced by actual top 2 line talent pushing everyone down a spot into a role they can succeed in.

The point made a while back when you first made the argument is that we don't have the guys in Bingo to adequately replace the guys you hate. When you named who can come up as replacements you mostly named guys who are already going to be a part of the big club, and therefore will not be replacing anyone.

If you want to argue that certain players should not have been re-signed to begin with then that is your right. But there is a world of difference between complaining about who we have and figuring out who would have been a better signing at the time of the respective deals.

If you are wishing for mythical top 2 line talent to burst down our door, come to our club, and agree to play in our budget then all the best to you with that. I would suggest at least considering that getting such talent means giving up a pile of assets in a trade (e.g. Ryan), or overpaying through the nose with cash we do not have to land one as an aging UFA.