50 goals, 40 assists = 30 goals and how many assists?

[Filthy Dangles]

I consider primary assists roughly equal to goals assuming both players are stars in similar situations.

If you equate value to how repeatable they are, then they are almost literally equal. @Hockey Outsider crunched the numbers and goals and primary assists had the same year-to-year correlation over a decade, to 4 decimal places.

 

[Stamkos4life]

Disagree, and it would appear GMs do as well.

You mean dubas.

 

[Craig Button]

60 there is no difference in value of assists and goals 0+51 is better than 50+0.

Nope

 

[Trocity]

I would take Crosby over Ovechkin.

 

[majormajor]

I voted 65, but it really depends on the context.

Ovechkin can rip pucks whether the pass is to his front foot, his back foot, behind him, you name it. That's a case where the goal frequently generates the assist.

When James Neal scored 40-40-80 playing next to Malkin, it was more often the assist generating the goal.

 

[ScaredStreit]

As a fan would you rather have your player score 40 goals and 40 assists or 25 goals and 60 assists? The answer is 25 goals and 60 assists because it means that your team scored 5 more goals with that player's involvement.

 

[Albatros]

Goal > assist, there's no conversion rate.

 

[Muffin]

Goals are more valuable than assists. There's a reason goal scorers get paid, look at Skinner.

 

[Ms Maggie]

This is so Ovi fan-boy, geez.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

It's a massively flawed question. Secondary assists aren't remotely as valuable or indicative as primary assists.

It's like equating home runs with outs that advance a runner. Or touchdowns with 5 yard receptions.

Secondary assists can be better then primary assists, not always or even often but sometimes so I don’t think it’s fair to generalize that way.

So while I agree it’s a flawed question, it’s not right to just assume secondary assists are inferior.

For instance player x gets a secondary assist by skating the puck all the way up the ice, makes head fakes and goes around both defenders makes an amazing move and passed to player Y at the side of the net for the one timer he shoots, it’s stopped but then player Z Taps in the rebound.

That play was all created by the secondary assist not only that but so many where it’s set up and a deflection or whatever else, puck goes off someone’s body and again the secondary assist was more important. Watch Crosby for this.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

70. Not all points should be considered equal even if they are actually *ahem* equal. Goals > Assists.

 

[Midnight Judges]

For instance player x gets a secondary assist by skating the puck all the way up the ice, makes head fakes and goes around both defenders makes an amazing move and passed to player Y at the side of the net for the one timer he shoots, it’s stopped but then player Z Taps in the rebound.

That play was all created by the secondary assist not only that but so many where it’s set up and a deflection or whatever else, puck goes off someone’s body and again the secondary assist was more important. Watch Crosby for this.

Crosby gets assists he doesn't deserve:

Some NHL Stars Get More Assists At Home Than They Deserve

There is a mountain of evidence to suggest that you don't have a point:

What is the objective value of an assist?

Simplify scoring: drop the pointless secondary assist

The Second Assist: Statistic or Gift?

https://www.tsn.ca/the-noise-surrounding-secondary-assists-1.1134501

 

[DL44]

There are about 1.7a given for each g.
So mathematically a g holds more value... its rarer.

(1.7 was the ratio a few yrs ago.. maybe slightly different now)

70-73.

 

[RSPens]

The real question would be, both player A and player B are free agents. Your team can afford one or the other no matter what the cost. Your team is a middle of the pack playoff team every year. Who are you signing?

Imo the 50 goal scorer (more rare) player gets signed for more money and more quickly

It actually depends on the makeup of the team and what type of player your team needs. If you have a room full of shooters, than getting another shooter doesn't really help. If you have a team with no finish but boy can they make nice plays, then yeah go for the shooter.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Crosby gets assists he doesn't deserve:

Some NHL Stars Get More Assists At Home Than They Deserve

There is a mountain of evidence to suggest that you don't have a point:

What is the objective value of an assist?

Simplify scoring: drop the pointless secondary assist

The Second Assist: Statistic or Gift?

https://www.tsn.ca/the-noise-surrounding-secondary-assists-1.1134501

We know why you keep regurgitating these articles that no one is going to read through on command, because you have an agenda that's as clear as day. And you're operating under the false premise that just because 2nd assists aren't very predicitive of future 2nd assists (this is true) that they aren't valuable, which is false. Your whole premise is off.

In fact, Total Points are actually more predictive year to year than just your beloved Primary Points, which add the purportedly completely random and worthless 2nd assists to Primary Points.

Also, Total Assists vary less year to year for players than do just Primary Assists....

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/attachments/table4-png.219077/

 

[CraigsList]

A point is a point.

Now, if you're asking me if I have to choose one I am going to choose the one that is scoring 5 goals every 8 games.

 

[Midnight Judges]

We know why you keep regurgitating these articles that no one is going to read through on command, because you have an agenda that's as clear as day. And you're operating under the false premise that just because 2nd assists aren't very predicitive of future 2nd assists (this is true) that they aren't valuable, which is false. Your whole premise is off.

In fact, Total Points are actually more predictive year to year than just your beloved Primary Points, which add the purportedly completely random and worthless 2nd assists to Primary Points.

Also, Total Assists vary less year to year for players than do just Primary Assists....

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/attachments/table4-png.219077/

You don't comprehend the data you are discussing. It's probably because you haven't read the articles but still insist on commenting.

The added predictiveness of secondary assists in addition to primary points is basically zero. I bet there are plenty of other stats you could substitute in that instance and have greater predictiveness than secondary assists - none of which anyone gets a point for. The data you cite explicitly supports my position. It's bizarre that anyone could conclude otherwise....unless they really wanted to.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

You don't comprehend the data you are discussing. It's probably because you haven't read the articles but still insist on commenting.

The added predictiveness of secondary assists in addition to primary points is basically zero. I bet there are plenty of other stats you could substitute in that instance and have greater predictiveness than secondary assists - none of which anyone gets a point for. The data you cite explicitly supports my position. It's bizarre that anyone could conclude otherwise....unless they really wanted to.

I probably did jump too quick on my first reply, so i'll admit that. There's a good chance I'm not understanding it and I'm not stats or data guy but my point is if 2nd assists were as random and crazy and meaningless as you claim, shouldn't adding them to something like Primary Points or Primary Assists weaken the correlation significantly, not marginally increase them?

 

[Sureves]

Surprised by the voting results.

Do I want:

1) 50g 40a 90p
2) 30g 75a 105p

Definitely #1, which makes the answer I pick 80a.

 

[Knave]

Oh great a bunch of amateurs who have no idea what they're doing or talking about running a bunch of regressions and pretending they're useful and valuable in an argument on whether or not we need a secondary assist.

My vote is 1 goal = 0.5 assists because it's about as analytical as that barrage of links I see up above.

 

[Dr Salt]

For math 60. In terms of fan consensus perceived value the 100 points.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

60 there is no difference in value of assists and goals 0+51 is better than 50+0.

Hypothetical scenario:

Team A has a top line where one player accomplishes all of the scoring. He gets 50 goals and 0 assists, the other two players on the top line get 0 goals and 50 assists each.

Team B has a top line where 2 players accomplish the bulk of the scoring. Both finish with 50 goals and 0 assists, and the other player on the line finishes with 50 assists as well.

The top lines of Team A and Team B both finish with 150 points, but Team B scores 50 more goals. Team B is obviously the higher scoring team. Goals >>>>>> Assists as long as secondary assists are counted.

 

[Caps8112]

It actually depends on the makeup of the team and what type of player your team needs. If you have a room full of shooters, than getting another shooter doesn't really help. If you have a team with no finish but boy can they make nice plays, then yeah go for the shooter.

When there are only maybe 2 player As in the league each season imo every team would sign them first. Goal scoring is simply harder to do

 

[moropanov]

Almost all best players of all time are more of playmakers than scorers best players make others better, so if player gets more goals than assists he can be good invidual, but not real elite like Gretzky Lemieux Crosby Jagr etc or then he plays with much lesser players so he hast to score himself but that should not be case at NHL level.

 

[1865]

So let's take a real example here.

Is Jonathan Cheechoo really more valuable than Joe Thornton in 05-06?

Cheechoo 82-56-37-93
Thornton 81-29-96-125

The difference from your example is that Cheechoo has 6 more goals and 7 more assists and Jumbo Joe has one less goal and 16 more assists.

Clearly using your example Jonathan was more impressive and valuable than Jumbo Joe right?

Cleary the Hart voters saw things really differently that year.

Also note how many 50 and 40 plus goal scorers fared that year.

Well, it's not quite what i'm saying - there's quite a gap in the total points there after all. 96 assists is incredible, moreso than 56 goals in my eyes. They're on the same line so there's some cross-pollination there of course but give me Thornton there. It's a little disingenuous to use Cheechoo too, what came after this isn't hugely relevant to the point we're discussing.