Post-Game Talk: 5 and 0 on the road!

[BLONG7]

So let me get this straight. You where a fan of the Habs BEFORE he was hired and will be again AFTER he is fired. That is what you posted. Sounds like blind irrational hate to me.

No, I AM still a fan of the team, and always have been...I am 52 yrs old, and I have only ever had disdain for 1 coach the team has ever had.........and you know which coach I am talking about...

He still makes the same Bill Lindsay mistakes, game after game, and we win in spite of him.....if we can fire Al Mcneil for winning the Cup, hopefully we can fire MT for the same...

 

[Pricef*]

No, I AM still a fan of the team, and always have been...I am 52 yrs old, and I have only ever had disdain for 1 coach the team has ever had.........and you know which coach I am talking about...

He still makes the same Bill Lindsay mistakes, game after game, and we win in spite of him.....if we can fire Al Mcneil for winning the Cup, hopefully we can fire MT for the same...

Then there is no point in debating with you. Like the other MT haters itès all about getting rid of the guy whether he deserves such a fate or not. The guy is far from perfect but he just doesn't deserve the crap posted on here and the name calling. He's done a very good job. He may not have been a sexy pick like Babcock for you guys but the stuff on here is just hilarious. Glad none of you are the GM or the days of Houle would be back.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Read the other quote in my post and then answer me: Aren't you tired of being consistently wrong?

If you want to criticize me for being wrong on something then pick something that I've actually been wrong about.

 

[BLONG7]

Then there is no point in debating with you. Like the other MT haters itès all about getting rid of the guy whether he deserves such a fate or not. The guy is far from perfect but he just doesn't deserve the crap posted on here and the name calling. He's done a very good job. He may not have been a sexy pick like Babcock for you guys but the stuff on here is just hilarious. Glad none of you are the GM or the days of Houle would be back.

So, we will agree to disagree...you think Mt is a good coach, and I don't...

 

[Cole Caulifield]

It's not Price guys, it's the coach...MT makes the tough decisions, and when he goes with Carey...well you know...

It's hilarious how you guys defend the MT hate by turning it around and accusing those who caution a more rational approach of blind love. No one is actually crediting MT for all of our success.

The truth is that 90% of the game is about the players pulling together and playing as a team. The remaining 10% is matchups, tactics and system. Of course those are figures I pulled out of my ass, I'm really just trying to illustrate that the players are doing the heavy lifting here. It's always been that way. The coach has a fairly minimal impact on the success of the team all things considered. What's important is that the players feel comfortable playing for the montreal canadiens with Therrien as coach. Therrien is building up team chemistry and discipline. While you guys focus on the 10%, Therrien is focusing on the 90% which, in the long haul, is going to provide more results. Wanting Therrien replaced at any cost is silly because overall Therrien is likely doing a solid job. If there's a better candidate somewhere fine. But that better candidate is likely employed right now. There might be a better coach out there who has yet to be given his chance but for every Cooper, you'll find 9 Noel, Eakins, etc. Replacing Therrien with a rookie would be a super high risk low chance for a low reward type move. For that reason I'm perfectly content with Therrien. When it stops working like it almost inevitably always does, then I reserve the right to revisit my opinion. But right now, the MT criticism is just misplaced, and that's an euphemism. And no amount of twisting our position around is going to make yours look any better.

 

[Pricef*]

So, we will agree to disagree...you think Mt is a good coach, and I don't...

Fair enough

 

[Pricef*]

It's hilarious how you guys defend the MT hate by turning it around and accusing those who caution a more rational approach of blind love. No one is actually crediting MT for all of our success.

The truth is that 90% of the game is about the players pulling together and playing as a team. The remaining 10% is matchups, tactics and system. Of course those are figures I pulled out of my ass, I'm really just trying to illustrate that the players are doing the heavy lifting here. It's always been that way. The coach has a fairly minimal impact on the success of the team all things considered. What's important is that the players feel comfortable playing for the montreal canadiens with Therrien as coach. Therrien is building up team chemistry and discipline. While you guys focus on the 10%, Therrien is focusing on the 90% which, in the long haul, is going to provide more results. Wanting Therrien replaced at any cost is silly because overall Therrien is likely doing a solid job. If there's a better candidate somewhere fine. But that better candidate is likely employed right now. There might be a better coach out there who has yet to be given his chance but for every Cooper, you'll find 9 Noel, Eakins, etc. Replacing Therrien with a rookie would be a super high risk low chance for a low reward type move. For that reason I'm perfectly content with Therrien. When it stops working like it almost inevitably always does, then I reserve the right to revisit my opinion. But right now, the MT criticism is just misplaced, and that's an euphemism. And no amount of twisting our position around is going to make yours look any better.

Nice post

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

It's hilarious how you guys defend the MT hate by turning it around and accusing those who caution a more rational approach of blind love. No one is actually crediting MT for all of our success.

The truth is that 90% of the game is about the players pulling together and playing as a team. The remaining 10% is matchups, tactics and system. Of course those are figures I pulled out of my ass, I'm really just trying to illustrate that the players are doing the heavy lifting here. It's always been that way. The coach has a fairly minimal impact on the success of the team all things considered. What's important is that the players feel comfortable playing for the montreal canadiens with Therrien as coach. Therrien is building up team chemistry and discipline. While you guys focus on the 10%, Therrien is focusing on the 90% which, in the long haul, is going to provide more results. Wanting Therrien replaced at any cost is silly because overall Therrien is likely doing a solid job. If there's a better candidate somewhere fine. But that better candidate is likely employed right now. There might be a better coach out there who has yet to be given his chance but for every Cooper, you'll find 9 Noel, Eakins, etc. Replacing Therrien with a rookie would be a super high risk low chance for a low reward type move. For that reason I'm perfectly content with Therrien. When it stops working like it almost inevitably always does, then I reserve the right to revisit my opinion. But right now, the MT criticism is just misplaced, and that's an euphemism. And no amount of twisting our position around is going to make yours look any better.

As someone who has been critical of MT, I can see your point. Part of his success is certainly the maturity of Price and the competence of Tokarski, but MT's recent success and line-up changes suggest that I temper my criticism. To me, this coach's main weakness is that he plays favorites, in a manner that is in sharp contrast with a more meritocratic approach, however it is apparent that he is open to roster suggestions by MB. The latter trait can negate over time the worst of MT's weaknesses; moreover, let's face it, this is a strong roster to work with. If he at least can get the roster right, the strength of this team and its farm club will limit any collateral damage from suboptimal coaching.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

As someone who has been critical of MT, I can see your point. Part of his success is certainly the maturity of Price and the competence of Tokarski, but MT's recent success and line-up changes suggest that I temper my criticism. To me, this coach's main weakness is that he plays favorites, in a manner that is in sharp contrast with a more meritocratic approach, however it is apparent that he is open to roster suggestions by MB. The latter trait can negate over time the worst of MT's weaknesses; moreover, let's face it, this is a strong roster to work with.

Agreed.

And since making the changes that folks advocated for this team's play has improved. You will see less criticism of him going forward as long as he doesn't go back to the nonsense of having DD on the first line, benching Sekac and sending Beaulieu back to Hamilton. The roster he's icing now actually makes sense and that will go a long way towards helping us.

The system still isn't great and we could be doing better but last night was arguably our best game of the year. I don't see any sense in criticizing the coach if the roster makes sense and the team actually plays well.

 

[BLONG7]

It's hilarious how you guys defend the MT hate by turning it around and accusing those who caution a more rational approach of blind love. No one is actually crediting MT for all of our success.

The truth is that 90% of the game is about the players pulling together and playing as a team. The remaining 10% is matchups, tactics and system. Of course those are figures I pulled out of my ass, I'm really just trying to illustrate that the players are doing the heavy lifting here. It's always been that way. The coach has a fairly minimal impact on the success of the team all things considered. What's important is that the players feel comfortable playing for the montreal canadiens with Therrien as coach. Therrien is building up team chemistry and discipline. While you guys focus on the 10%, Therrien is focusing on the 90% which, in the long haul, is going to provide more results. Wanting Therrien replaced at any cost is silly because overall Therrien is likely doing a solid job. If there's a better candidate somewhere fine. But that better candidate is likely employed right now. There might be a better coach out there who has yet to be given his chance but for every Cooper, you'll find 9 Noel, Eakins, etc. Replacing Therrien with a rookie would be a super high risk low chance for a low reward type move. For that reason I'm perfectly content with Therrien. When it stops working like it almost inevitably always does, then I reserve the right to revisit my opinion. But right now, the MT criticism is just misplaced, and that's an euphemism. And no amount of twisting our position around is going to make yours look any better.

The 90-10 analogy is pretty fair...once the game starts, the coach's only real responsibility is to make sure the right people, are on the ice at the right time........something our guy has alot of trouble with...being stubborn, and playing favorites, and having double standards during a game are more trouble...
Bottom line, it's a results orientated business, and we are winning...so that's a good thing...it's MY opinion, we quite often win in spite of someone's decisions...

 

[Nedved]

Then there is no point in debating with you. Like the other MT haters itès all about getting rid of the guy whether he deserves such a fate or not. The guy is far from perfect but he just doesn't deserve the crap posted on here and the name calling. He's done a very good job. He may not have been a sexy pick like Babcock for you guys but the stuff on here is just hilarious. Glad none of you are the GM or the days of Houle would be back.

things habs fans have been shouting all season (galchenyuk #1 c, dd on the wing, eller with sekac, weaver out, bourque out) seem to have taken forever.

the only thing left is fixing that pp.

with subban, markov, gonchar, galchenyuk, pacioretty, etc. there's no reason for our awful pp, and he seems unwilling to try something new.

he's a slow learner...because the depth and talent on this team is impressive. we arguably have the world's best goalie, a norris d man, vets with olympic experience, young, high energy players. frankly, we should be at the top. there was a lot of question marks going into the season, and guys are proving their worth and value to
the team.

this team was pulling wins out of their ass, had some terrible hockey, and are playing good since galchenyuk was moved with pacioretty. therrien is lucky to have some of the best players in the world on this team, because this is the most talented habs team in god knows how long.

if therrien takes us to the conference finals again, win or lose, and are competitive, i'm willing to deal with our struggles if we try new personnel (pp, for instance, which simply isn't getting it done)

if anything, MB doesn't get enough credit. this guy makes a lot of good decisions and has this team wheeling.

 

[Markov4Captain]

The analytics debate on Twitter is becoming a bit too much for me

I mean, I'm one of Therrien's biggest doubters when it comes to his 'system' and his distribution of ice time. The Habs do rely on Price way too much and defend way too often. But on the other hand, we're fans of a team. We won last night, on a second half of a back to back, with difficult travel, the last game of the road trip. While we may not have had the most shot attempts or controlled zone entries, we played a pretty decent game. As fans, are we supposed to be pissed after the game because "OMG THE CORSI WASNT HIGH ENOUGH!!1!!". At the end of the day, our style of play isn't really sustainable and we rely on goaltending way too much. But I'm also cognizant of the fact that as a fan, I want my team to win. Therrien deserves credit for the way he's handled the roster and the players deserve credit for the way they've played. It doesn't always have to be doom and gloom. Appreciate the win, don't let analytics control your experience as a fan.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The analytics debate on Twitter is becoming a bit too much for me

I mean, I'm one of Therrien's biggest doubters when it comes to his 'system' and his distribution of ice time. The Habs do rely on Price way too much and defend way too often. But on the other hand, we're fans of a team. We won last night, on a second half of a back to back, with difficult travel, the last game of the road trip. While we may not have had the most shot attempts or controlled zone entries, we played a pretty decent game. As fans, are we supposed to be pissed after the game because "OMG THE CORSI WASNT HIGH ENOUGH!!1!!". At the end of the day, our style of play isn't really sustainable and we rely on goaltending way too much. But I'm also cognizant of the fact that as a fan, I want my team to win. Therrien deserves credit for the way he's handled the roster and the players deserve credit for the way they've played. It doesn't always have to be doom and gloom. Appreciate the win, don't let analytics control your experience as a fan.

I don't even understand why you'd post this. Have you actually read through this thread? Everyone's happy with the game we played.

 

[Markov4Captain]

I don't even understand why you'd post this. Have you actually read through this thread? Everyone's happy with the game we played.

Oh no, you misunderstood my point. I wasn't posting about people in this thread, I was referring to Habs commentators on Twitter. I've read through this thread and welcomed the positivity. I know a lot of people here follow the same people I do on Twitter so I wanted to share my 2 cents about analytics when it comes to this game and the Habs in general.

 

[Lebowski]

Oh no, you misunderstood my point. I wasn't posting about people in this thread, I was referring to Habs commentators on Twitter. I've read through this thread and welcomed the positivity. I know a lot of people here follow the same people I do on Twitter so I wanted to share my 2 cents about analytics when it comes to this game and the Habs in general.

Analytics are the new plague.

There's already far too many people basing 100% of their opinion on boxscores, but with the new fancy stats trend, it got even worse. It should be used as a complement to the first-hand observations, not as the single source of information.

 

[Markov4Captain]

Analytics are the new plague.

There's already far too many people basing 100% of their opinion on boxscores, but with the new fancy stats trend, it got even worse. It should be used as a complement to the first-hand observations, not as the single source of information.

Exactly. Corsi and Fenwick are useful but to me, having played on different sports teams, things like team chemistry and leadership do have a role to play. A team isn't just about skill; you need so many things to go right to win a championship and I don't think those things can simply be quantified by numbers.

 

[Paddyjack]

I'm sorry, but this is nothing short of a lie.

Subban had all but a very few *bad* games at the beginning of the season. People complained mostly for the same reason they complain now, he's less noticeable and doesn't carry the puck as much as before.

But I can tell you one thing, I've watched his game very closely since the beginning of the season, and the way he's playing right now has been the norm for the most part. Markov isn't the one carrying that pairing. He's more prone to mistakes than Subban, believe it or not.

Before you ask, I specifically paid careful attention to Subban's overall game since the beginning of the season for one very good reason, he gets unfairly criticized by many, even Habs fans.

I'll reiterate what I said earlier, and been saying at the end of most games this season: he's our best defensive defenseman, and our most consistent to boot. Saying he was "bad" when he wasn't playing with Markov isn't true. At all.

Sorry bud, but no. People were not complaining because of his lack of flashyness or whatnot, it was his stupid decisions making in his zone that if Beaulieu had done the same he would have been benched right away. You should have paid more attention in the first ten games it was very obvious

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Exactly. Corsi and Fenwick are useful but to me, having played on different sports teams, things like team chemistry and leadership do have a role to play. A team isn't just about skill; you need so many things to go right to win a championship and I don't think those things can simply be quantified by numbers.

They're designed to be looked at over time not on a game to game basis. It is interesting to see it on a game by game basis though.

 

[Habs13]

Next game is huge! We play Tampa, who are two points behind and we have a game in hand. Win that, and we put them four back with that game still in hand! I really hope they can continue to play this way - looking good all around!

 

[Cole Caulifield]

things habs fans have been shouting all season (galchenyuk #1 c, dd on the wing, eller with sekac, weaver out, bourque out) seem to have taken forever.

Forever = 25 games.

That's such a long time. Whole empires have been built and destroyed over such mind bogglingly long time frames.

the only thing left is fixing that pp.

PP go hot and cold all the time and are typically an ass-coach job.

Having a terrible PP is not preventing us from being successful.

Having a good PP is very reliant on having elite PP forwards like Ovechkin, Stamkos, Crosby, Getzalf, Perry, etc. We fall short in that regard, but then we have some elite PP quarterbacks which somewhat offset this. Problem is that teams have figured out that all of our PP offense comes from there and have adapted their strategies. If offense could come from the forwards it would open up lanes for our great QBs but we don't have elite PP forwards.

Not everything is MT's fault. Not everything requires someone to be blamed.

with subban, markov, gonchar, galchenyuk, pacioretty, etc. there's no reason for our awful pp, and he seems unwilling to try something new.

Galchenyuk, Pacioretty are alright but not dominant PP forwards. Pacioretty has trouble handling the puck at times and his goal on the PP where he cut into the slot and pulled a Kovalev against the devils is such a rare occurrence I can't remember the last time I saw that. Not sure if that's on the coaches..

he's a slow learner...because the depth and talent on this team is impressive. we arguably have the world's best goalie, a norris d man, vets with olympic experience, young, high energy players. frankly, we should be at the top. there was a lot of question marks going into the season, and guys are proving their worth and value to
the team.

And we are...

But keep in mind that Subban was struggling earlier in the season and not playing like a Norris winner.

this team was pulling wins out of their ass, had some terrible hockey, and are playing good since galchenyuk was moved with pacioretty. therrien is lucky to have some of the best players in the world on this team, because this is the most talented habs team in god knows how long.

I agree this is one of the best habs team in a while, but every coach is lucky to have good players and unlucky to have bad players. That type of argument is another way of saying MT deserves all the blame for everything that's wrong, and zero credit for everything that's right. It's not a balanced viewpoint.

If you were not being dishonest you'd say this is one of the best roster in a while, but it's also doing great things that no other rosters have done for the habs in a long time (hottest start since late 70ies habs dynasty, first time since 88-89 that we go on such a crazy road trip, best goals against in the eastern conference).

I prefer to use logic. Things are going well, people are doing their jobs. If MT was so terrible, MB wouldn't have extended him for so long. He's doing something right. You won't know what it is by watching 24CH and post game interviews. Coaches aren't going to reveal all of their inner secrets on cameras. They are a naturally guarded bunch. Everything you see on TV is just for show, prepared as to cause the fewest ripples and give the least actual real information possible. This my long winded way of saying that we have no way as fans to know the inner workings of the team and it's asinine to have a grief against the coach when results are there.

if therrien takes us to the conference finals again, win or lose, and are competitive, i'm willing to deal with our struggles if we try new personnel (pp, for instance, which simply isn't getting it done)

I noticed that MT doesn't like to use different lines for the PP. He always talks about how it's important to build momentum on the PP. It seems to me that, for him, the PP is a platform to put the other team in trouble and a way for us to install our game for the rest of the period. Something we shouldn't rely on. Something that shouldn't break up our pace and rhythm. He wants players to always go together. If you break your regular lines for the PP, you end up having guys with different levels of energy for the rest of the period.

if anything, MB doesn't get enough credit. this guy makes a lot of good decisions and has this team wheeling.

But you as a fan has no way of knowing how to distribute that credit when things are going so well. How can you really know ?

What about the way MB handled Subban ? Were you a fan of that ?
What about the acquisition of Murray, Parros, Briere?
What about signing Moen to a long term deal ?
Resigning Bouillon ?
Were you a fan of all of these moves ?

I think MB has done a great job of fixing the mess he made that one summer. It all started at the deadline of that same season with Weise, Weaver and Vanek. And it continued this summer and at the beginning of the season. He had a lot of deadwood, some of it his own doing.

Overall he's done a great job but he's also made mistakes. I'm sure the same can be said for Therrien. But how can so much blame be put on MT when we've been top 5 in the east since the start, more often top 3 than not. We're a good team, everyone thinks we're amazing now, but at the start of the season, last season, and 2 seasons ago no one saw us there in the medias and amongst most fans.

 

[Habsawce]

Next game is huge! We play Tampa, who are two points behind and we have a game in hand. Win that, and we put them four back with that game still in hand! I really hope they can continue to play this way - looking good all around!

They play tonight so we'll either be tied with 2 games in hand or up 2 with 2 games in hand going into Tuesday. Still way too early to worrying about finishing first in the division but it could be a good confidence boost for the team, especially after getting trounced 7-1 by that team.

 

[Habs Icing]

Over that span, the coach will be taking so many decisions and doing so on a daily basis. It's completely normal that a coach will regularly get criticized.

Is this what you call "getting criticized": every fourth or fifth post about him demanding he be fired, or calling him a moron or wondering how he still has a job.

Criticizing I can understand. I did it myself a couple of weeks back when Ghetto was placed on the 4th line so he could be shuffled back to the A. To be honest I wish there wasn't this irrational hatred for Therrien so I could complain on this forum about some moves I don't agree with. But when I see the constant insults to a coach that has his team 2nd overall in the league I figure my complaints can wait.

 

[Kriss E]

Is this what you call "getting criticized": every fourth or fifth post about him demanding he be fired, or calling him a moron or wondering how he still has a job.

Criticizing I can understand. I did it myself a couple of weeks back when Ghetto was placed on the 4th line so he could be shuffled back to the A. To be honest I wish there wasn't this irrational hatred for Therrien so I could complain on this forum about some moves I don't agree with. But when I see the constant insults to a coach that has his team 2nd overall in the league I figure my complaints can wait.

Maybe I haven't followed the boards as much these past few weeks, but I just don't see what you did. Might be a handful of irrational posters, as there always is regardless of the topic, but I never noticed this overwhelming hate.

 

[Kimota]

I really don't know what games you're watching. Struggling? For real?

I guess we've been all wrong, all the commentators, all the fans in these boards in the GDTs of all the GDT all year so far I've been part of, all the specialists? PK has been struggling all year, making mistakes left and right defensively, making bad decisions and that by being not as productive offensively and not helping on the PP. The guy is lost. And that is why it's been easy for Max to get away with the captaincy race. It has been maddening watching Subban this year.

 

[Lebowski]

I guess we've been all wrong, all the commentators, all the fans in these boards in the GDTs of all the GDT all year so far I've been part of, all the specialists? PK has been struggling all year, making mistakes left and right defensively, making bad decisions and that by being not as productive offensively and not helping on the PP. The guy is lost. And that is why it's been easy for Max to get away with the captaincy race. It has been maddening watching Subban this year.

He's producing as much as last year. He's producing at twice the rate at ES than he did in his Norris season, ranking 2nd for defensemen in that regard. He has more ES points than Ovechkin, Tavares and Toews. Not bad for someone that has been struggling all year. He's also the leader in +/- on the team for defensemen, for what its worth.

The PP woes aren't just on him like you pretend. There's 5 guys out there, and there's a coaching staff. The PP has been crap for 2 years now, whoever is on the ice.

Making mistakes left and right defensively . Not bothering with that.

As for the analysts and commentators part, I take it you watch a lot of RDS. Fans around here have been praising his overall game for the most part. Some notable posters hate for the sake of hating on him. The hockey news had him 4th for the Norris barely 2 weeks ago.