Post-Game Talk: 5.5.13| Penguins Topple Islanders in Overtime

[psu711]

What are you expecting from 58?

He's one of the few D in the league, and the only D we have that can pinch and makes it back to break up the play defensively. Again, remember he was recently injured (as I said before).

Now what you are saying about not-pinching...etc....
DB has to run the show correctly (as you said).

All i have is my opinion... and that is that:

The more he pinches, the more it turns the play to run and gun, the closer it becomes to the philly series last year, it also seems to be the hardest type of play for Fleury to deal with.

In my opinion our offensive firepower should be more than enough to need nothing from our D other than breakout passes and PP help... Anything else is gravy..

I feel like we are capable of playing lock-down suffocating D, we've shown that. Now i want to see it on somewhat of a regular basis.

The good news IMHO is... i dont think the Isles can maintain this pace for 6 or 7 games, so hopefully our half-ass, mailed in, relying on talent as opposed to effort strategy will prevail.

 

[steveg]

Less likely, sure. Much less likely? If he was out a little further on his angle it doesn't go in, imo. But agree to disagree. It was a nice shot and it definitely wasn't a soft goal.

First off, I apologize if I was a bit harsh the other day when we were debating Fleury; I was frustrated at the time, and I felt you were being too negative.

Today, your thoughts about Fleury seem more balanced to me, but this one I have to take issue with.

Part of the reason Fleury let up goals 3 and 4 in game 2 were because he was out toward the top of his crease, being high/aggressive and trying to cut down the angle (appropriate IMO -- but got victimized by a hard/perfect bounce right to the edge of the net). On the Tavares breakaway goal, however, a shot between the legs of a defenseman screening Fleury, Tavares with so little room that he had to bank it off the post, you are saying he could have been more aggressive/higher in the crease to cut the angle off a bit more.

Isn't that asking too much? On one hand, he gets heat from some here for being too far out, and having to struggle to get back quickly for a hard bounce off the boards that caroms out to the goal post/edge of the crease. On the other hand, if he is a bit less high (possibly an adjustment due to the two goals the other day that burned him), and leaves a sliver of net (while also being screened to the shot), then he "could have played it better?"

Here's the problem as I see it. There is virtually no goal given up where -- if you really want to hone in on the goalie -- that you can't say "he could have done this" or "he could have done that." It seems like we EXPECT our snipers to pick corners and score on good goalies, but we also EXPECT our goalie to cut down all angles and stop all the shots coming from ANOTHER team's snipers...

Again, it's opinions. We all have them, and that's why the forum is here. My only point is that once someone becomes "the whipping boy," it's easy to put that person under the microscope and focus on every mistake they make, while ignoring the good plays. I saw someone here earlier griping about Fleury's goals, and someone said "yes, but what about all the great saves he made when we went up 3-2 and then 4-2 in the second," and that person replied "those saves weren't important saves..." What???

 

[vodeni]

Exactly what I expect him to be on those playoffs : your average starting goaltender. More precisely, I expect him to outplay opposite goalies of good offensive teams and give us a chance to win against great defensive teams.
Looking at the series so far, he's outplayed Nabokov, if it continues, it should be enough to win that series. (I mean if we lose the series, there would be much more to blame than goaltending)

Funny how it works, Fleury is this year what Bryzgalov was for the Flyers last year while Nabokov has been for the Isles what Fleury was for us last year : for as bad as Fleury as been at times, somehow Nabokov has been worse.

That said, for once, we don't have to rely entirely on Fleury's shoulders. There's always the possibility of dressing Vokoun, provided that Bylsma doesn't use this card too late..

I wanted him gone long time ago, but he's been his best ever this year. For the first time I don't think any of these goalies will outplayed him to make the difference. Someone said (might be you) go back and check the video after the 3:2 score he made quite a few excellent saves enough to keep a great team in the game and not deflate them. But if you let 100 fricking shots each game you could put cement block wall there it would eventually fall down.
No, Flower is not our problem, he is fine, he is what he has always been a notch above average goalie which considering all the pay raise for the goalies in the league is exactly where he falls in.

 

[psu711]

Do you chuckle when they mention Subban too? Or any other defensemen not named Chara?

I do. Maybe that is on me as IMHO the Norris was more about he Bourque's, Chelios's, Blake's, Pronger's, Lidstrom's, Chara's than it has been about the Leetch' Coffey's, Kieth's and Karlsson's.

Times are a-changin' though...

Good luck on the cylce.

What cycle? I feel like the last time i saw a cycle Cooke, Staal and TK were on the ice????

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Letang's play isn't the reason for Fleury's struggles. Our system isn't the reason for Fleury's struggles. Fleury is the reason for Fleury's struggles. You can win playing run-and-gun hockey if your goaltender makes timely saves. Like, for instance, when you have a 4-2 lead in the third period and you get a breakaway against you while on the PP, and the shooter scores by putting it right in the middle of the net. OR, when you have a 4-3 lead and a sniper shoots a wrister far side. There are timely saves to be made here and Fleury's not making it. And this is while he's playing well, unlike Game 2.

If he continues to play like this, win or lose, we need to make a change. I assume there was a reason why we signed Vokoun for more than the average backup salary. Sure, to push Fleury. But when Fleury still doesn't play up to snuff, then what?

 

[Led Boots]

+ They won
- They looked like **** doing it

+++ Sid
++ Kunitz
+ Murray

Everyone else gets an = or -

Agree with this. The Pens better get their hearts/heads into this series or the Isles are going to take it from them.

+Nice to be up in the series
- If nothing changes, that will be short-lived joy

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Letang's play isn't the reason for Fleury's struggles. Our system isn't the reason for Fleury's struggles. Fleury is the reason for Fleury's struggles. You can win playing run-and-gun hockey if your goaltender makes timely saves. Like, for instance, when you have a 4-2 lead in the third period and you get a breakaway against you while on the PP, and the shooter scores by putting it right in the middle of the net. OR, when you have a 4-3 lead and a sniper shoots a wrister far side. There are timely saves to be made here and Fleury's not making it. And this is while he's playing well, unlike Game 2.

If he continues to play like this, win or lose, we need to make a change. I assume there was a reason why we signed Vokoun for more than the average backup salary. Sure, to push Fleury. But when Fleury still doesn't play up to snuff, then what?

I'm curious how long Fleury's leash is. I think starting him in Game 3 was the right decision, because it gives him an opportunity to make up for his Game 2 gaffes. So it's not about that. But I'm just wondering how many games of being average to below average he's got with Bylsma before a change is made.

So far in this series, I'd say the only game Fleury was "good" was Game 1. He's been average to below average for 2 of the 3 games in this series. Teams don't win Stanley Cups when their goalie only plays like an elite goalie 1 every 3 games.

With regards to the Okposo SHG, that wasn't necessarily a "bad goal". But it was at a time in a game where you need your goalie to make a big save. In the Ottawa/Montreal game last night, the Sens had a 3-1 lead with about 16 minutes left in the third. Gionta was sprung on a breakaway, but Anderson stoned him and kept the game at 3-1. If Gionta had scored, it's suddenly a 1-goal game with over 15 minutes left to play. Instead, it remains 3-1 and Montreal eventually fades.

 

[psu711]

Letang's play isn't the reason for Fleury's struggles. Our system isn't the reason for Fleury's struggles. Fleury is the reason for Fleury's struggles. You can win playing run-and-gun hockey if your goaltender makes timely saves. Like, for instance, when you have a 4-2 lead in the third period and you get a breakaway against you while on the PP, and the shooter scores by putting it right in the middle of the net. OR, when you have a 4-3 lead and a sniper shoots a wrister far side. There are timely saves to be made here and Fleury's not making it. And this is while he's playing well, unlike Game 2.

If he continues to play like this, win or lose, we need to make a change. I assume there was a reason why we signed Vokoun for more than the average backup salary. Sure, to push Fleury. But when Fleury still doesn't play up to snuff, then what?

I really couldnt disagree more.... Putting a short handed breakaway from one of the worst PP efforts i've seen this year on Fleury?

Look at the freaking shot totals for game 2 & 3? Its been a shooting gallery and without some really odd bounces in G2 we are talking about Brooms.

Im no fleury homer by any means, but Id take Fleury vs the 80 shots he's seen in the past 2 games over Vokoun any day of the week.

 

[steveg]

I thought there was a period of time in the action where we slowed the game down, possessed the puck, penetrated their zone, and limit their chances, namely in the second. The pens need to stick with that simplified game plan. The immediate "going north" philosophy seems to fall right into the Isles hands and they play "track-meet" better than any team in the league.

Agreed...there was definitely a time there in the second where the Pens seemed to tighten up and slow down the Isles...

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

Right now, Bylsma is making the right decision to continue going with Fleury. I have no doubt Vokoun could get the team to the ECF, but they'll need Fleury at the top of his game if they're going to compete for and win the Stanley Cup. That makes this series an important stepping stone. It gives them the opportunity to let Fleury try to settle in because he hasn't been a negative factor for the team and he's outplaying Nabokov.

If the team find themselves in real trouble we should see Vokoun, but until then stick with Fleury and let him try to get it together before the going gets truly tough.

Agree, the question of playing Vokoun has yet to be asked (no reason to play him so far) but, if Fleury is average next game and the Pens lose game 4. Who will Bylsma dress for game 5 ? He will have a difficult choice to make that's for sure.

Of course, I hope we never have to find out.

 

[chuppa chupp]

I just hope to Christ that Tanner Glass is not in tomorrow's lineup. He's like a more bumbling, slower, and less agile version of Inspector Gadget.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

With regards to the Okposo SHG, that wasn't necessarily a "bad goal". But it was at a time in a game where you need your goalie to make a big save. In the Ottawa/Montreal game last night, the Sens had a 3-1 lead with about 16 minutes left in the third. Gionta was sprung on a breakaway, but Anderson stoned him and kept the game at 3-1. If Gionta had scored, it's suddenly a 1-goal game with over 15 minutes left to play. Instead, it remains 3-1 and Montreal eventually fades.

Bravo. This is exactly it in a nutshell. I don't care if Fleury lets in 7 goals a game, if he makes the save when we need it most, we'll win more than we'll lose.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

Bravo. This is exactly it in a nutshell. I don't care if Fleury lets in 7 goals a game, if he makes the save when we need it most, we'll win more than we'll lose.

I love the whole "he needs to make the save when we need them" argument, as it's so full of ****, I have a hard time to know where to start with it. It's basically a way for his haters to yell at him even when the goal is completely not on him. I know it was a great shot, I know it was a huge defensive breakdown, I know the goal was an extremely hard one to stop and you can't expect a goalie to make them all the tiime, but that save would have mattered@!

Apparently, the save on the 29th, 30th, 32nd, 33rd shots weren't needed, they weren't important. But that 31st shot?! That was when we needed it! Why can't he make it when we need it.

 

[psu711]

Bravo. This is exactly it in a nutshell. I don't care if Fleury lets in 7 goals a game, if he makes the save when we need it most, we'll win more than we'll lose.

Sorry, i dont even see a shred of logic in this.

 

[djt153]

"big saves" are the nhl equivalent of hitting with runners in scoring position in baseball. sometimes your goalie bails you out, sometimes he doesnt. if you have an incredible goalie they will bail you out more often than a lesser one.

 

[vodeni]

I'm curious how long Fleury's leash is. I think starting him in Game 3 was the right decision, because it gives him an opportunity to make up for his Game 2 gaffes. So it's not about that. But I'm just wondering how many games of being average to below average he's got with Bylsma before a change is made.

So far in this series, I'd say the only game Fleury was "good" was Game 1. He's been average to below average for 2 of the 3 games in this series. Teams don't win Stanley Cups when their goalie only plays like an elite goalie 1 every 3 games.

With regards to the Okposo SHG, that wasn't necessarily a "bad goal". But it was at a time in a game where you need your goalie to make a big save. In the Ottawa/Montreal game last night, the Sens had a 3-1 lead with about 16 minutes left in the third. Gionta was sprung on a breakaway, but Anderson stoned him and kept the game at 3-1. If Gionta had scored, it's suddenly a 1-goal game with over 15 minutes left to play. Instead, it remains 3-1 and Montreal eventually fades.

again I posted earlier that Flower is just fine. His saves percentage is 924, if he carries that and he will he is our least problem. I hated argument about his timely saves before when he was awful and somehow came up with big saves, now that he developed into a good reliable goalie please do not pull the same argument against him

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

And this is why the media frustrates me.

Obviously they can't be like us message board a-holes and start calling players useless at a presser, but why hasn't ONE ****ing reporter brought up a simple question like "Dan, don't you think Vitale's speed and energy would provide a boost against a team like the Islanders?"

I haven't disliked a player on this team the way I dislike Glass in a long time.

Ya I was just thinking of that earlier. I'd love for someone to call him on that and listen to him stutter his way through it.

I've said many times its easy to criticize DB because we don't have to be held responsible when we are wrong. But there are certain cases that are just obvious,, Neal at point... Iggy at LW going into the playoffs... But this **** with Glass over Vitale is so absurd I can't even find one ounce of common sense behind it.

Glass scoring that meaningless goal, as many of us said, was one of the worst things to happen in game one. It just gives DB some oddball excuse to keep him in.

I think Ian Moran was the last guy I disliked so much.... But he was a utility guy and at least had some value.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm sorry it hurts your feelings, Fleury fans, but after last spring (and the spring of 2010), he deserves no passes whatsoever. Make a save when we need it, that's it that's all.

I'm so tired of all the excuses we here keep making for this first overall prodigy, who has had everything handed to him and hasn't had to work his way out of anything. If we wanna know what his problem ultimately is, Fleury's adversity-challenged. He's never had to fight for his job. He's been coddled like few other players in this league. And he's the opposite of being mentally tough.

And at the end of the day, he's just a goaltender in the National Hockey League. Like Jaroslav Halak. Or Semyon Varlamov. Or Kari Lehtonen. You can win with him just like you can lose with him. He isn't anywhere near franchise goaltender level, and never has been.

But I'm sure things will get easier from hereon out, so we shouldn't have anything to worry about right?

 

[SEALBound]

Sorry, i dont even see a shred of logic in this.

That's because you, and several like you, want to believe that Fleury is an elite goalie and its everyone else's fault but his. Not true.

He has struggled in the post season every year. Deal with it. 3 of the 4 goals should NOT have gone in. He does not put the team in a position to win. Cup winning goalies do.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

nevermind

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I just hope to Christ that Tanner Glass is not in tomorrow's lineup. He's like a more bumbling, slower, and less agile version of Inspector Gadget.

I'm usually a laid back cat and nothing on a msg board gets to me...

... but if you EVER make me think about Inspector Gadget again I'll **** you up somehow. I don't know how, but I will.

That show was creepy as hell. It made Liquid Televison on MTV look like the Jetsons.

 

[vodeni]

I'm sorry it hurts your feelings, Fleury fans, but after last spring (and the spring of 2010), he deserves no passes whatsoever. Make a save when we need it, that's it that's all.

I'm so tired of all the excuses we here keep making for this first overall prodigy, who has had everything handed to him and hasn't had to work his way out of anything. If we wanna know what his problem ultimately is, Fleury's adversity-challenged. He's never had to fight for his job. He's been coddled like few other players in this league. And he's the opposite of being mentally tough.

And at the end of the day, he's just a goaltender in the National Hockey League. Like Jaroslav Halak. Or Semyon Varlamov. Or Kari Lehtonen. You can win with him just like you can lose with him. He isn't anywhere near franchise goaltender level, and never has been.

But I'm sure things will get easier from hereon out, so we shouldn't have anything to worry about right?

No fleury fan here whatsoever, more of a hater, drove me nuts because I looked at the stats I looked at his demeanor, i looked at the game and he was below average goalie with a lot of potential. Finally he developed his game his status his positioning and the save percentage goes up, his overall impact has become more than tangible, I hated his contract before his legend was developed by the lazy Pittsburgh hockey media who repeats each other mantra that originally comes from Penguins organization. Now we have middle of the pack goalie (slightly above) who's paid his market value to deliver exactly that. we are not LA Kings to need a goali to carry you to the SC, that's why you have superstars and jack adams, we have a goalie with 924 svae percentage with a shooting gallery opened and that's plenty good for us to win

But now he is not the problem, he exudes confidence, I got scared just of thoughts having TV for the extended series in here....

 

[MtlPenFan]

Ya I was just thinking of that earlier. I'd love for someone to call him on that and listen to him stutter his way through it.

I've said many times its easy to criticize DB because we don't have to be held responsible when we are wrong. But there are certain cases that are just obvious,, Neal at point... Iggy at LW going into the playoffs... But this **** with Glass over Vitale is so absurd I can't even find one ounce of common sense behind it.

Glass scoring that meaningless goal, as many of us said, was one of the worst things to happen in game one. It just gives DB some oddball excuse to keep him in.

I think Ian Moran was the last guy I disliked so much.... But he was a utility guy and at least had some value.

And no sooner do I say that Jiggy...

Mike Colligan ‏@MikeColligan 22m
that said, I think Glass has been fine in a 4th line role the first three games, he's played physical, and he's done well on PK

I mean, how are we supposed to react to that? Apparently "playing physical" simply means finishing your hits...even though the hits have no effect other than becoming a statistic.

Insane to me how dismissive so many are to how much better a team can become by putting the right people on a 4th line.

 

[Crafton]

I'm usually a laid back cat and nothing on a msg board gets to me...

... but if you EVER make me think about Inspector Gadget again I'll **** you up somehow. I don't know how, but I will.

That show was creepy as hell. It made Liquid Televison on MTV look like the Jetsons.

speaking of laid back cats...

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

And no sooner do I say that Jiggy...

Mike Colligan ‏@MikeColligan 22m
that said, I think Glass has been fine in a 4th line role the first three games, he's played physical, and he's done well on PK

I mean, how are we supposed to react to that? Apparently "playing physical" simply means finishing your hits...even though the hits have no effect other than becoming a statistic.

Insane to me how dismissive so many are to how much better a team can become by putting the right people on a 4th line.

Pretty much what I expected without him being challenged to actually break his game down compared to Vitale.

speaking of laid back cats...

You are a sick human being and fate has a heavy price tag with your name on it.

You probably even liked Danger Mouse and Count Duckula.... Creepy dude you are...

You deserve nothing good in your life.