Post-Game Talk: 5.5.13| Penguins Topple Islanders in Overtime

[MtlPenFan]

Pretty much what I expected without him being challenged to actually break his game down compared to Vitale.



You are a sick human being and fate has a heavy price tag with your name on it.

You probably even liked Danger Mouse and Count Duckula.... Creepy dude you are...

You deserve nothing good in your life.

TK needs to be in there too, as long as the talk with him is "Stop playing for a contract. Be the guy that got you in the League to start with"

 

[hiptanaka]

Letang's play isn't the reason for Fleury's struggles. Our system isn't the reason for Fleury's struggles. Fleury is the reason for Fleury's struggles. You can win playing run-and-gun hockey if your goaltender makes timely saves. Like, for instance, when you have a 4-2 lead in the third period and you get a breakaway against you while on the PP, and the shooter scores by putting it right in the middle of the net. OR, when you have a 4-3 lead and a sniper shoots a wrister far side. There are timely saves to be made here and Fleury's not making it. And this is while he's playing well, unlike Game 2.

If he continues to play like this, win or lose, we need to make a change. I assume there was a reason why we signed Vokoun for more than the average backup salary. Sure, to push Fleury. But when Fleury still doesn't play up to snuff, then what?

There is a reason why All-Star games are high-scoring, and that is because of the run-and-gun play-style adopted that favors high-octane offense for sound, foundational defense. That is the style the Penguins seem to resort to in the playoffs, and it exposes the goalie to an increased proportion of high-quality scoring opportunities. The goalies playing in All-Star games are not scrubs, they are All-Stars, and there is a reason why they give up 6, 7, 8 goals during the game.

Expecting Fleury to give 2 or fewer goals a game with the barrage of prime scoring opportunities he's exposed to, night in and night out, is not realistic. The defense needs to tighten up; scratch that, it needs to tighten up a lot.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

I wanted him gone long time ago, but he's been his best ever this year. For the first time I don't think any of these goalies will outplayed him to make the difference.

Yeah, even if he's outplayed what we should get from him is what he did in '08 against Lundqvist and the rags.

Someone said (might be you) go back and check the video after the 3:2 score he made quite a few excellent saves enough to keep a great team in the game and not deflate them. But if you let 100 fricking shots each game you could put cement block wall there it would eventually fall down.
No, Flower is not our problem, he is fine, he is what he has always been a notch above average goalie which considering all the pay raise for the goalies in the league is exactly where he falls in.

That made me remember, Fleury earlier in his NHL career was drawing comparison with Fuhr(and rightfully so) : the type of goalie who would let in some goals but would make the saves when it mattered and help you win the game.
Goalies, when all was said and done, who had not so great save % but had a great W/L column. I wonder what happened to that goalie the last few years in playoffs, we really could use that kind of goalie going forward.

 

[MDIsles]

I apologize for my post last week! Just want to give props to your Pens! Your team is really, really, really good. I flew up from DC yesterday to attend game 3, great game eventhough the results were not ideal for the Isles. Flew back last night, long day but fun. My heart still wants to #BeLIeve in the Isles but my head knows my playoff beardathon beard is coming off by the weekend. I don't want this series to end. Anyways, what a series. I know you guys think the Pens aren't playing well, I think the Isles are just a pretty solid team. I just hope that the hockey world sees the Isles in a better light after this series... Good Luck to you guys! Here's to a great rest of the series. Stressful as BLEEP!!!

 

[radapex]

Agree, the question of playing Vokoun has yet to be asked (no reason to play him so far) but, if Fleury is average next game and the Pens lose game 4. Who will Bylsma dress for game 5 ? He will have a difficult choice to make that's for sure.

Of course, I hope we never have to find out.

If the Pens lost game 4 and I was calling the shots, I'd be going with Vokoun in game 5 and going back with Fleury in game 6 regardless of the outcome. It'd be an opportunity to send a message to Fleury by playing Vokoun in game 5 and allowing him to respond in game 6.

Obviously if Fleury stands on his head in game 4, a 1-0 loss or something like that, then it's a different story.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

TK needs to be in there too, as long as the talk with him is "Stop playing for a contract. Be the guy that got you in the League to start with"

Take out Adams and Glass, put in TK and Vitale. More speed and shots on goal. Throw in JJ and that line would buzz. Just dreaming a little dream.

But no one can get hemmed in their own end quite like the fourth line can. Take a muscle bound man, put his face in 'dah sand.

Ahhhhhhh their BAAAD.

 

[radapex]

I'm sorry it hurts your feelings, Fleury fans, but after last spring (and the spring of 2010), he deserves no passes whatsoever. Make a save when we need it, that's it that's all.

I'm so tired of all the excuses we here keep making for this first overall prodigy, who has had everything handed to him and hasn't had to work his way out of anything. If we wanna know what his problem ultimately is, Fleury's adversity-challenged. He's never had to fight for his job. He's been coddled like few other players in this league. And he's the opposite of being mentally tough.

And at the end of the day, he's just a goaltender in the National Hockey League. Like Jaroslav Halak. Or Semyon Varlamov. Or Kari Lehtonen. You can win with him just like you can lose with him. He isn't anywhere near franchise goaltender level, and never has been.

But I'm sure things will get easier from hereon out, so we shouldn't have anything to worry about right?

But he's not being paid like a franchise goaltender either. As I posted earlier in the thread, he's got the 11th highest cap him among goalies this year and will drop to the 14-16 range next season. So, the fact of the matter is, he is being paid like an average to above average NHL starter and it's entire possible his salary (cap hit) will be lower on his next contract.

And, just like the guys you mentioned and all but maybe 2 or 3 goalies in the NHL, Fleury's play is highly reflective of the team in front of him. That's just how it is in the NHL today - goaltenders really have minimal impact compared to the players in front of them and the systems that are in place. Good systems can make mediocre goalies (ex: Smith, Elliott) look good and bad systems can make good goalies look mediocre.

 

[Dying Alive]

I apologize for my post last week! Just want to give props to your Pens! Your team is really, really, really good. I flew up from DC yesterday to attend game 3, great game eventhough the results were not ideal for the Isles. Flew back last night, long day but fun. My heart still wants to #BeLIeve in the Isles but my head knows my playoff beardathon beard is coming off by the weekend. I don't want this series to end. Anyways, what a series. I know you guys think the Pens aren't playing well, I think the Isles are just a pretty solid team. I just hope that the hockey world sees the Isles in a better light after this series... Good Luck to you guys! Here's to a great rest of the series. Stressful as BLEEP!!!

I think it's a combination of the two.

 

[psu711]

That's because you, and several like you, want to believe that Fleury is an elite goalie and its everyone else's fault but his. Not true.

He has struggled in the post season every year. Deal with it. 3 of the 4 goals should NOT have gone in. He does not put the team in a position to win. Cup winning goalies do.

I have made no mention of Fleury being an 'elite'.

I agree with most arguments against fleury.

It all falls apart when people tell me Thomas Vokoun is the answer.
I shutter to think what Vokoun gives up against the 80 shots fleury saw in the last 2 games.

Fleury is currently the best Goalie on the roster, Im very open to listening to ideas to change that, until then, perhaps you should take your own advice?

Deal with it.

 

[Shady Machine]

But he's not being paid like a franchise goaltender either. As I posted earlier in the thread, he's got the 11th highest cap him among goalies this year and will drop to the 14-16 range next season. So, the fact of the matter is, he is being paid like an average to above average NHL starter and it's entire possible his salary (cap hit) will be lower on his next contract.

And, just like the guys you mentioned and all but maybe 2 or 3 goalies in the NHL, Fleury's play is highly reflective of the team in front of him. That's just how it is in the NHL today - goaltenders really have minimal impact compared to the players in front of them and the systems that are in place. Good systems can make mediocre goalies (ex: Smith, Elliott) look good and bad systems can make good goalies look mediocre.

Okay but he was certainly paid like a franchise goalie at the time of his deal. It's just that inflation is starting to make his cap hit seem more reasonable for an average/above average starter.

 

[Shockmaster]

That's because you, and several like you, want to believe that Fleury is an elite goalie and its everyone else's fault but his. Not true.

He has struggled in the post season every year. Deal with it. 3 of the 4 goals should NOT have gone in. He does not put the team in a position to win. Cup winning goalies do.

Maybe some of us actually understand what we are watching instead of blaming the most visible player as typical knee-jerk fans do.

On the first goal, is Fleury supposed to clear his own crease?

On the second, is he supposed to leave his crease and cover the guy with the puck after Niskanen turned it over?

How about the third? Maybe he should skated the puck himself up into the Islanders zone and chip it in deep since on one else wanted to.

The fourth goal was a result of Kunitz trying to make a high-risk play at the Islanders blueline that went the other way. Tavares used Eaton as screen.

Could Fleury be better? Sure. But he is the main problem? Not even close. I'd just like to know why the Fleury bashers absolutely REFUSE to acknowledge the bigger problems with this team right now.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I love the whole "he needs to make the save when we need them" argument, as it's so full of ****, I have a hard time to know where to start with it. It's basically a way for his haters to yell at him even when the goal is completely not on him. I know it was a great shot, I know it was a huge defensive breakdown, I know the goal was an extremely hard one to stop and you can't expect a goalie to make them all the tiime, but that save would have mattered@!

Apparently, the save on the 29th, 30th, 32nd, 33rd shots weren't needed, they weren't important. But that 31st shot?! That was when we needed it! Why can't he make it when we need it.

Uh, you're missing the point of my example. Hint: Anderson not only made that breakaway save, but he made every other save as well.

My point wasn't about Anderson JUST making that breakaway save but not concentrating on the other saves he made. My point was about that one being a key one because it could have turned the tide. He also had to make other ones that obviously could have changed the score, but that one in particular is one that was similar to Fleury not stopping Okposo on a breakaway and his defenders saying, "you can't expect a goalie to stop a breakaway!"

At this point, I honestly don't know what those defending Fleury actually expect a starting goalie to do. Is it just the routine saves, then everything else is the team's fault? Or are even routine saves not expected from him? If the defense even allows a shot on net, is that the team's fault and the goalie isn't expected to save it?

I'm honestly confused because it seems even when Fleury outright plays bad, folks are quick to say, "it's not his fault they scored 5 goals on 20 shots! Why are people only focused on the 5 goals he allowed and not the 15 shots he saved?!".

 

[Shady Machine]

Maybe some of us actually understand what we are watching instead of blaming the most visible player as typical knee-jerk fans do.

On the first goal, is Fleury supposed to clear his own crease?

On the second, is he supposed to leave his crease and cover the guy with the puck after Niskanen turned it over?

How about the third? Maybe he should skated the puck himself up into the Islanders zone and chip it in deep since on one else wanted to.

The fourth goal was a result of Kunitz trying to make a high-risk play at the Islanders blueline that went the other way. Tavares used Eaton as screen.

Could Fleury be better? Sure. But he is the main problem? Not even close. I'd just like to know why the Fleury bashers absolutely REFUSE to acknowledge the bigger problems with this team right now.

Fleury was not a problem in games 1 or 3. Game 2 he let in some fluky, back breaking goals. He didn't lose the game for the team, but he certainly didn't help. Overall he's been decent in this series.

 

[Shockmaster]

Uh, you're missing the point of my example. Hint: Anderson not only made that breakaway save, but he made every other save as well.

My point wasn't about Anderson JUST making that breakaway save but not concentrating on the other saves he made. My point was about that one being a key one because it could have turned the tide. He also had to make other ones that obviously could have changed the score, but that one in particular is one that was similar to Fleury not stopping Okposo on a breakaway and his defenders saying, "you can't expect a goalie to stop a breakaway!"

At this point, I honestly don't know what those defending Fleury actually expect a starting goalie to do. Is it just the routine saves, then everything else is the team's fault? Or are even routine saves not expected from him? If the defense even allows a shot on net, is that the team's fault and the goalie isn't expected to save it?

I'm honestly confused because it seems even when Fleury outright plays bad, folks are quick to say, "it's not his fault they scored 5 goals on 20 shots! Why are people only focused on the 5 goals he allowed and not the 15 shots he saved?!".

We're expecting the team not to turn the puck over at the Islanders' blueline and not give up 35 to 50 shots a game.

 

[KIRK]

I just hope to Christ that Tanner Glass is not in tomorrow's lineup. He's like a more bumbling, slower, and less agile version of Inspector Gadget.

Your wishes might be more likely to come to fruition if you hoped for a Red Ryder BB Gun.

 

[KIRK]

We're expecting the team not to turn the puck over at the Islanders' blueline and not give up 35 to 50 shots a game.

And I'm expecting the coach to deploy line combos that make sense and to make adjustments designed to exploit rather than play into what the Isles are doing defensively.

I expect both of us will be as pleased as we were yesterday and on Friday in these regards.

 

[wgknestrick]

I have made no mention of Fleury being an 'elite'.

I agree with most arguments against fleury.

It all falls apart when people tell me Thomas Vokoun is the answer.
I shutter to think what Vokoun gives up against the 80 shots fleury saw in the last 2 games.

Fleury is currently the best Goalie on the roster, Im very open to listening to ideas to change that, until then, perhaps you should take your own advice?

Why does Vokoun have a higher career SV% then? Why did Vokoun have an even strength SV% of .939 compared to MAF's .929 playing behind the same team? How many years has MAF had a higher SV% than Vokoun?

If only there was data on this.

Vokoun would give up 4.88 goals on 80 shots compared to MAF's 5.68 on average. It doesn't make me shutter

 

[Rocket of Russia]

With regards to the Okposo SHG, that wasn't necessarily a "bad goal". But it was at a time in a game where you need your goalie to make a big save. In the Ottawa/Montreal game last night, the Sens had a 3-1 lead with about 16 minutes left in the third. Gionta was sprung on a breakaway, but Anderson stoned him and kept the game at 3-1. If Gionta had scored, it's suddenly a 1-goal game with over 15 minutes left to play. Instead, it remains 3-1 and Montreal eventually fades.

Bravo. This is exactly it in a nutshell. I don't care if Fleury lets in 7 goals a game, if he makes the save when we need it most, we'll win more than we'll lose.

Go to NHL.com and watch the highlights. Literally 4 different replays occur while the score is 3-2, all of them huge save after huge save from MAF. Maintaining the lead was less important than a short-handed breakaway to make the game 4-3?

 

[Shockmaster]

Why does Vokoun have a higher career SV% then? Why did Vokoun have an even strength SV% of .939 compared to MAF's .929 playing behind the same team? How many years has MAF had a higher SV% than Vokoun?

If only there was data on this.

Vokoun would give up 4.88 goals on 80 shots compared to MAF's 5.68 on average. Shutter that.

Dude, no one cares about your fantasy league.

 

[Abashaw]

DB should read this...not that it would matter if he did

http://thehockeywriters.com/jarome-iginla-sidney-crosby-linemates/

 

[KIRK]

DB should read this...not that it would matter if he did

http://thehockeywriters.com/jarome-iginla-sidney-crosby-linemates/

That is really good stuff from Colligan. Explains stylistically why Iginla doesn't work with Malkin but would, for the same reasons, work with Sid and one of Kunitz/Dupuis.

There's also some really good stuff in there about the type of linemate Malkin needs and routinely doesn't get.

 

[psu711]

DB should read this...not that it would matter if he did

http://thehockeywriters.com/jarome-iginla-sidney-crosby-linemates/

Good read, but other than the PP and Doug Murray closing his eyes and letting a wrister go the highlights of the game were... Crosby to Dupers and Crosby to Kunnnnnnnnnniittttzz.


Thats what is so great about hockey... You cant just put a NYY lineup in and forsake Chemistry.

Could Iggy / Crosby work? Yeah, probably, but work better than 14/87/9? I dunno???

 

[Ogrezilla]

With regards to the Okposo SHG, that wasn't necessarily a "bad goal". But it was at a time in a game where you need your goalie to make a big save. In the Ottawa/Montreal game last night, the Sens had a 3-1 lead with about 16 minutes left in the third. Gionta was sprung on a breakaway, but Anderson stoned him and kept the game at 3-1. If Gionta had scored, it's suddenly a 1-goal game with over 15 minutes left to play. Instead, it remains 3-1 and Montreal eventually fades.

The exact same thing can be said about a shooter. He needs to score the goal in that situation. Someone will always end up disappointed.

 

[rmartin65]

Good read, but other than the PP and Doug Murray closing his eyes and letting a wrister go the highlights of the game were... Crosby to Dupers and Crosby to Kunnnnnnnnnniittttzz.


Thats what is so great about hockey... You cant just put a NYY lineup in and forsake Chemistry.

Could Iggy / Crosby work? Yeah, probably, but work better than 14/87/9? I dunno???

The question is not whether or not Dupers-Crosby-Iggy is better than Kunitz-Crosby-Dupers, but whether or not Dupers-Crosby-Iggy and Kunitz-Malkin-Neal is better than Kunitz-Crosby-Dupers and Iggy-Malkin-Neal.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Good read, but other than the PP and Doug Murray closing his eyes and letting a wrister go the highlights of the game were... Crosby to Dupers and Crosby to Kunnnnnnnnnniittttzz.


Thats what is so great about hockey... You cant just put a NYY lineup in and forsake Chemistry.

Could Iggy / Crosby work? Yeah, probably, but work better than 14/87/9? I dunno???

What did Sid and Kunitz do even strength?

And I am not positive switching Kunitz and Iginla makes Crosby's line better. But it sure as hell will make Geno's line better. Whatever Sid's line may lose (which may be nothing) we will make up for by having Geno and Kunitz rolling on the 2nd line.

I don't care if it makes Sid's line better. I care if it makes the team better.