Proposal: 4th pick plus Mantha ➕? For Werenski?

[jkutswings]

Agreed Lindros was nothing special

Apples to oranges:

Anthony Mantha Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Eric Lindros Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Mantha has never reached 50 points, let alone a PPG season. (Extending this last year, he was on pace for 72 points.) Lindros had seasons of 115 points, 97 points, and 93 points. With a career +215 rating, in contrast to Mantha's -12.

Do I think Mantha is a very good player, perhaps with his best hockey yet to come? Yes. But talented or not, he hasn't churned out anything close to the best that Lindros did (even if I agree that #88 was a tad overrated in some aspects).

 

[lilidk]

Apples to oranges:

Anthony Mantha Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Eric Lindros Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Mantha has never reached 50 points, let alone a PPG season. (Extending this last year, he was on pace for 72 points.) Lindros had seasons of 115 points, 97 points, and 93 points. With a career +215 rating, in contrast to Mantha's -12.

Do I think Mantha is a very good player, perhaps with his best hockey yet to come? Yes. But talented or not, he hasn't churned out anything close to the best that Lindros did (even if I agree that #88 was a tad overrated in some aspects).

I should not compare Mantha to Lindros,but he's special player. I always thought he is Bertuzzi like late blossom. We can't afford to trade Mantha and he is capable to get 100 points season

 

[RedWingzz]

Mantha and the 4th? No way, that's an overpayment.

I'd seriously consider Mantha and a prospect, but I'm not interested in moving the 4th.

 

[Hen Kolland]

No, no he isn't. Not even close. He isn't even a top 10 RW in the league. How can that possibly be elite?

I mean among right wingers as listed on Hockey-Reference, setting the bar at 35 games (50%), he was 11th in goals per game and points per game. Of the players ahead of him, only 6 names were ahead in both categories, which is a testament to the fact that he's become a more well rounded offensive player. He might not be an elite RW right now, but he's putting his name on the short list for the promotion.

I feel this discussion is completely different if he swaps spots with one of the 6 names ahead of him: Pasta, Kucherov, Rantanen, Laine, or Rust. Imagine Mantha with Bergeron/Marchand, Stamkos/Point, MacKinnon/Landeskog, Scheifele/Wheeler, or Crosby/Malkin...and not Larkin/Bertuzzi. The only one without elite support is probably Patty Kane.

 

[19 for president]

Mantha +4th would be too much but Mantha+ a prospect or Mantha + other picks for Werenski would be great. I'd also be game to deal the 4th + (not Mantha) for Werenski as well. I don't see why Columbus does it, but that'd solve our #1 issue. Also a 23 year old dman absolutely fits our timeline. Picking at dman at 4 does not fit our timeline. Dmen typically mature slower while forwards peak earlier. Peak for dman usually hits somewhere around 25-27 and goes until around 32.

My interest in Raymond goes up significantly at 4 if we can land a top 2 youngish dman via trading Mantha.

 

[SirloinUB]

I really think Mantha has more to give. He battled a lot of Injuries in his career, including a broken bones in his leg and wrists. As far as injuries go, those both would impact his physical development. I also look at a guy like Marchand who was what, 28/29 the first time he broke 80 points? Shit with our rebuild timeline that kind of late bloomer would be ideal really.


That said I love Werenski. Throw me in the camp that would do it for an add that isn’t Seider or 4th overall. Then we don’t have to feel guilty about not addressing our D when we draft Raymond.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I feel like an unofficial UFA deal should be easy enough to work out if Larkin and Werenski are on casual speaking terms. "Wanna play in Det in 3 years? Boss told me to tell you he's definitely going to give you a fair offer if you're free by then." "Yea sure tell him I'll let the contract run out."

I'm aware that this is almost definitely illegal, but I can't imagine how the league could possibly enforce/punish it unless Larkin says it in an email and cc's [email protected].

I'm also aware this wouldn't be a real contract so Yzerman could back out and screw him, but if he's that good a player he'll get as good or better an offer somewhere else anyway, so I don't think there's much risk to anyone involved.

Even though it sounds like a conspiracy theory it's hard to imagine casual deals like this NOT happening. It would be way too easy.

Of course this all relies on the assumption that Werenski actually does want to play in Det with Larkin.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Fwiw yeah I probably would do that trade, but I don't see Columbus moving Werenski.

As mentioned above, our best bet at getting Werenski is hoping he goes to UFA in his prime years (his current deal expires in two years, but he'll still be an RFA).

 

[ArmChairGM89]

No, no he isn't. Not even close. He isn't even a top 10 RW in the league. How can that possibly be elite?

he is fifth or sixth.

 

[HisNoodliness]

I think the trouble with this trade is that Mantha hasn't had the raw production due to his injuries. If he manages to stay healthy for a full season and maintain his pace of the last few years, then his value will be much higher. So I'm inclined to wait until he does that to move him if we do. As is, it would take adding a significant piece (4 OA) to pry Werenski away from Columbus, and I really don't want to do that as we're taking 2 steps forward, 3 steps back. We really need to get a significant piece with 4 OA this year and build around that player. We're in no rush to compete so losing out on total value for the already performing defenseman isn't worthwhile. I'd rather have Drysdale and Mantha than Werenski as I think ultimately it's more total value. There's more risk, and the value is delayed, but we're going to be bad regardless so we have to take bets like that.

If we could trade Mantha + Rasmussen + Lindstrom for Werenski, then I'd definitely do that, but I don't see Columbus taking that deal until Mantha shows he can produce over 82 games (not to mention the value gains Ras and Lindstrom could make). Unfortunately, I think that our rebuild is coming along sufficiently slowly that there's a good chance we have to move Mantha eventually, but I don't think we should do so yet. I'm willing to bet his value will climb some more and I want him around so that Larkin, Zadina, Seider and 4 OA can play with some talent and suffer a little less.

 

[NotLeddy]

Columbus isn't trading Werenski

 

[TCNorthstars]

he is fifth or sixth.

Pastrnak, Kucherov, Kane, Marner, Wheeler, Stone, Laine, Svechnikov, Rantanen, Tarasenko. How are you ranking these guys and putting Mantha at 5 or 6?

 

[ArmChairGM89]

Pastrnak, Kucherov, Kane, Marner, Wheeler, Stone, Laine, Svechnikov, Rantanen, Tarasenko. How are you ranking these guys and putting Mantha at 5 or 6?

I’d take Mantha over Tarasenko and he’s on par with laine rantanen and stone (might give stone an edge for his defense) and wheeler will be 35 next year.

honestly just being in the top 10 makes you elite and he’s firmly there. That means he’s the best RW all but 9 teams. Out of what will be 32 teams.

 

[TCNorthstars]

I’d take Mantha over Tarasenko and he’s on par with laine rantanen and stone (might give stone an edge for his defense) and wheeler will be 35 next year.

honestly just being in the top 10 makes you elite and he’s firmly there. That means he’s the best RW all but 9 teams. Out of what will be 32 teams.

I would give you Wheeler for future due to age, but at this moment in time, Wheeler is the superior player. The rest I think you have homer glasses on. Plus I might be a little more discerning in thought of what an elite player is.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

I would give you Wheeler for future due to age, but at this moment in time, Wheeler is the superior player. The rest I think you have homer glasses on. Plus I might be a little more discerning in thought of what an elite player is.

I think Mantha is a ppg player. Outside of the top 4, all those guys are basically ppg players. I don’t think a lot separates them. I think he’s in that class. You can say that he hasn’t done it yet and you’d be right. I think if he doesn’t get hurt last year he hits that mark. So sure if you just go to stat pages maybe he’s a step behind them. But there is more to it than that imo

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Why would Werenski want this? Like, yeah, maybe he would like to be a Wing. But does he want to lose for years to do it? Does he want to miss the playoffs for years to do it? Absolutely not. He might not even re-sign in this situation.

And this team is not one Zach Werenski away from contention. Not even close.

It's frustrating how delusional Detroit fans are about the strength of this team. We treat it like going from historically bad to contention is going to be an instant, completely seamless process. I guess because we haven't rebuilt in so long, we have no actual idea how rebuilding goes. We talk about rebuilding this team like how Lucille Bluth talks about buying bananas, just in reverse. "It's a rebuild, Michael. How long can it take? 1 year? 2 years?"

 

[Ezekial]

Why would Werenski want this? Like, yeah, maybe he would like to be a Wing. But does he want to lose for years to do it? Does he want to miss the playoffs for years to do it? Absolutely not. He might not even re-sign in this situation.

If he were traded he wouldn't have to "want" it
He just turned 23, he's got a long career left. I don't know why you would follow the Wings if you don't think they'll have a chance to be good by the time he's 30.
He's an RFA, under control for the next 3 years at minimum. Check out the 3 top lottery teams from the 2017 NHL draft: Colorado, Vancouver, Arizona (Vegas as well for Expansion), all playoff teams today


Now, I don't do this trade because of what you said in the part I deleted: This team minus 4th overall and Anthony Mantha but plus Werenski is still a terrible team, one that would probably still be terrible the minimum 3 years of Werenski after this season.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

If he were traded he wouldn't have to "want" it
He just turned 23, he's got a long career left. I don't know why you would follow the Wings if you don't think they'll have a chance to be good by the time he's 30.
He's an RFA, under control for the next 3 years at minimum. Check out the 3 lottery teams from the 2017 NHL draft: Colorado, Vancouver, Arizona (Vegas as well for Expansion)


Now, I don't do this trade because of what you said in the part I deleted: This team minus 4th overall and Anthony Mantha but plus Werenski is still a terrible team, one that would probably still be terrible the minimum 3 years of Werenski after this season.

People like to motivate this trade by talking about how Werenski is a hometown guy, and how he'd like to play with Larkin, and they talk about how he doesn't want to stay in Columbus. It seems like they're saying that Werenski would be happy to play in Detroit, which is part of why it would be a good move. But I don't think he would be.

 

[Ezekial]

People like to motivate this trade by talking about how Werenski is a hometown guy, and how he'd like to play with Larkin, and they talk about how he doesn't want to stay in Columbus. It seems like they're saying that Werenski would be happy to play in Detroit, which is part of why it would be a good move. But I don't think he would be.

Werenski just needs to tell Larkin to migrate a couple hundred miles south, boom Columbus dynasty

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

The Mantha-Lindros comparison is absolutely crazy.

If you're looking for a direct comparable in terms of potential impact and potential career then look at Corey Perry. Goalscoring winger with good size, good speed, not afraid to get his hands dirty. Mantha's less of a punk ass than Corey Perry was, but I think they could have similar career trajectories. Mantha was on pace for 70ish points this year and I could see him consistently hitting 30+ goals, 75+ points for a few seasons with maybe one or two explosive years before tailing off from age/injuries.

Trading Mantha for Werenski straight up? Maybe. He'd be a hell of a partner for Seider, and it gives Columbus a very talented winger up front. This only works if Detroit is able to pick up a goalscoring winger in free agency because when Mantha wasn't in the lineup this year we were unwatchable.

Adding the 4th overall pick? You're out of your mind.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Trading Mantha for Werenski straight up? Maybe.

Adding the 4th overall pick? You're out of your mind.

Do you think Columbus would disassemble one of the best defensive pairings in hockey by trading a 23 year old, top-pairing blueliner for an older, possibly injury-prone winger who has never scored 30 goals in a season? Because that's how Jarmo would size up this deal.

The Werenski/Jones pairing is the lynchpin of that team, if we offer Mantha for Werenski straight up Columbus laughs us off the phone.

Edit:

Who plays the more valuable position? Werenski

Who is younger? Werenski.

Who is the better player today? I'd wager that most neutral parties say Werenski.

 

[Retire91]

I feel that is an over payment but you probably gotta overpay for defense. I also feel Columbus doesn't do it. Its too risky for us. The 4th overall could turn into a huge player. If you were to go all in on this trade why not draft Drysdale and then you still have Mantha. Mantha will also retain his value even if he poop the bed people will still trade for him thinking he needs a change. But he could also have a monster season making his trade value skyrocket. It's a no for me.

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

but what about 4th and mantha for #1

 

[lilidk]

If we trade on the top Warenski , Larkin + Hronek for Erik Karlsson we will be set for...…..

 

[Hen Kolland]

The Mantha-Lindros comparison is absolutely crazy.

If you're looking for a direct comparable in terms of potential impact and potential career then look at Corey Perry. Goalscoring winger with good size, good speed, not afraid to get his hands dirty. Mantha's less of a punk ass than Corey Perry was, but I think they could have similar career trajectories. Mantha was on pace for 70ish points this year and I could see him consistently hitting 30+ goals, 75+ points for a few seasons with maybe one or two explosive years before tailing off from age/injuries.

Trading Mantha for Werenski straight up? Maybe. He'd be a hell of a partner for Seider, and it gives Columbus a very talented winger up front. This only works if Detroit is able to pick up a goalscoring winger in free agency because when Mantha wasn't in the lineup this year we were unwatchable.

Adding the 4th overall pick? You're out of your mind.

Maybe from a pure production standpoint on Perry? But Perry was never as good of a skater as Mantha, and Mantha has 2 inches and 30 pounds on Perry. Mantha has a lot more dazzle to his game, someone like Rick Nash comes to mind, and when at his best he can be among the very best.