GDT: #49: Jets at FLYERS, Monday, Jan. 28, 2019, 7:00 pm ET

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BiggE

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Yea plus Provy and Ghost to a degree continue to struggle. The coach’s system is not great and allows for 0 possession. And they continue to play slow. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lost their next 5-6. Not easy games.
I don't think they'll lose 5 or 6 in a row now that they are getting better goaltending and have some depth at center, but I can easily see them going something like 4-5-1 in their next 10 which would leave them with 53 points in 58 games.
 
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TheKingPin

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I don't think they'll lose 5 or 6 in a row now that they are getting better goaltending and have some depth at center, but I can easily see them going something like 4-5-1 in their next 10 which would leave them with 53 points in 58 games.
Yea that’s prob more realistic and will likely keep them at the bottom of the standings. They easily could have lost the last three games though. They aren’t playing very well.
 

deadhead

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There was a temporal gap between the high draft picks who arrived quickly (Provorov, TK, Patrick) and most of the draft picks which, like most teams, don't arrive until they're 21-23.
Hart just got promoted at 20, Vorobyev got a shot at 21, Myers will be up this spring at 21.
Vorobyev will get another shot if he's not beat out by Bunnaman, NAK will be up, Friedman may get a promotion.

The real problem was a lack of prospects in the AHL the last few years, the best were Cousins (3rd rd), Weal and Leier, Goul (3rd rd), Alt, Hagg (2nd rd).
Next year LHV will finally have a team full of legitimate prospects, with more arriving in 2020-21.
 

TheKingPin

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Eh I’m not buying that. I know you don’t like the Boston comparison but they have a lot of prospects that are good not great and they are filling Boston’s lineup and doing well. They have a good coach which helps but there is no reason to play weal over Misha, amac over Myers, Lehtera over NAK and now Bailey. Even G should not be at center on a lost season. Let him play wing and get easier minutes. Bring up Misha as the centerman. Couts Patrick Laughton Voro to end the year is fine.
 

deadhead

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Boston doesn't rush their young players, that's an "urban myth" - like most teams, some start early, some need time:

Pastrnak #25, playing at 18, full-time at 20
Carlo D #37, starter at 20
MacAvoy D #14, starter at 20
DeBrusk #14, starter at 21, at 22 [40g, ES 9-3 12]
Krug D, UDFA out of college, starter at 22
Grzelcyk D #85, starter at 24
Kuraly, #133 (SJ), acquired in Martin Jones trade, starter at 25

These guys are starting, but aren't playing better than Weal [28g 3-4 7] or Weise [42g 4-6 10]
They reflect Boston's lack of depth at forward.
Heinen #116, starter at 22, at 23 [47g 5-5 10]
Donato #56, starting at 22, [34g 3-3 6]
JFK #45, starting at 22 [28g 3-5 8]

Flyers:
Patrick #2, starter at 19
Provorov D, #7, starter at 19
TK, #24, starter at 19
Hart G, #48, starter at 20
Sanheim #17, starter at 21/22
Ghost D, #78 starter at 22
Hagg D, #41, starter at 22
Laughton #20, starter at 21, 23
Lindblom #138, starter at 22

Next year (this spring) we will add some of the following:
Farabee 19
Frost 20
Bunnaman 21
Myers 22
NAK 23
Vorobyev 23
Morin 23
Friedman 23
 
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KrazyKat

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Eh I’m not buying that. I know you don’t like the Boston comparison but they have a lot of prospects that are good not great and they are filling Boston’s lineup and doing well. They have a good coach which helps but there is no reason to play weal over Misha, amac over Myers, Lehtera over NAK and now Bailey. Even G should not be at center on a lost season. Let him play wing and get easier minutes. Bring up Misha as the centerman. Couts Patrick Laughton Voro to end the year is fine.

Im really liking Laughton as a LW. Him and Patrick have good chemistry. Putting a goal scorer on there RW would be huge. Simmonds is there for now, and that line has been playing very well. If you get a guy like Stone or something. We got a good line. Giroux at center is fine for now till Frost comes. This team is lacking center depth. Look what happened against the Penguins last year.

The fact Hakstol never once put G at center, even when Couts was hurt. Should have gotten him fired right there. That and the fact Sanheim was scratched, and the fact you played an injured Elliott/Nuevirth instead of a healthy mrazec. All blew my mind.
 

baudib1

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Boston doesn't rush their young players, that's an "urban myth" - like most teams, some start early, some need time:

Pastrnak #25, playing at 18, full-time at 20
Carlo D #37, starter at 20
MacAvoy D #14, starter at 20
DeBrusk #14, starter at 21, at 22 [40g, ES 9-3 12]
Krug D, UDFA out of college, starter at 22
Grzelcyk D #85, starter at 24
Kuraly, #133 (SJ), acquired in Martin Jones trade, starter at 25

These guys are starting, but aren't playing better than Weal [28g 3-4 7] or Weise [42g 4-6 10]
They reflect Boston's lack of depth at forward.
Heinen #116, starter at 22, at 23 [47g 5-5 10]
Donato #56, starting at 22, [34g 3-3 6]
JFK #45, starting at 22 [28g 3-5 8]

Flyers:
Patrick #2, starter at 19
Provorov D, #7, starter at 19
TK, #24, starter at 19
Hart G, #48, starter at 20
Sanheim #17, starter at 21/22
Ghost D, #78 starter at 22
Hagg D, #41, starter at 22
Laughton #20, starter at 21, 23
Lindblom #138, starter at 22

Next year (this spring) we will add some of the following:
Farabee 19
Frost 20
Bunnaman 21
Myers 22
NAK 23
Vorobyev 23
Morin 23
Friedman 23

These lists pretty clearly illustrate that Boston pushes their young players harder/faster than the Flyers and it's pretty indisputable. Of course everyone knew that anyway. To use just one example, Ghost is arguably the best college player in the country at age 20 and it took him a year and a half to crack the starting lineup, and then only due to injuries. Carlo scored 27 points in his D+1 season in juniors and 1 point in 7 AHL games before getting put into the lineup for 82 games as a 20-year-old. His timeline is extremely accelerated compared to any Flyers prospect of the past 10 years.

The Bruins are playing 2-3 rookies every night in a season they're trying to compete instead of playing their $6M veteran David Backes. The Flyers are playing 2 Backes a night.
 

deadhead

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Huh, look at those lists.
Boston is playing 7 young starters, and 3 marginal forwards who should probably be in the AHL.
The only reason those marginal players are in the lineup is because Boston is competing for a playoff and they need depth.

We playing 9 young starters, and will probably bring up 3-5 players in the next month or so.
If Morin wasn't injured we'd have 10 on the roster.

Boston had 3 players who were 20 or younger when they became starters, one which was 21.
The rest of the Boston players were 22 or older, i.e., the age that our AHL players will be when they come up.

We had 3 players who were 19, one who was 20.

Far from being different, both teams follow almost an identical promotion pattern, a few players reach the NHL at a young age, most at age 22-23.
 

Here4ThaLids

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Thanks for that clip, MSE, I hadn't seen it since it happened. :thumbu:

Amazing to see LeClair move like that on the second goal; his back had taken a pretty big toll on him after ... 2000 (right? I might be off by a year or two) and there really aren't many clips of him from this century on youtube (and in those he's usually lumbering and broken-down). That aspect always sticks out to me on re-watches of 90s games -- he didn't skate like Gartner or Bure but he was decently fast for a man of his size and surprisingly agile.
 

Curufinwe

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These lists pretty clearly illustrate that Boston pushes their young players harder/faster than the Flyers and it's pretty indisputable. Of course everyone knew that anyway. To use just one example, Ghost is arguably the best college player in the country at age 20 and it took him a year and a half to crack the starting lineup, and then only due to injuries.

Ghost is not a great example because he only played seven games in his first year then tore his ACL.
 

deadhead

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Same with Morin, who would have gotten at least 10 games last fall to show if he belonged if he hadn't gotten hurt, so absent injuries, Ghost makes the Flyers by the end of his 21 year old season and Morin at 22.

I think this myth is driven by fans wanting to see one or two "favorite" prospects, last year Sanheim, this year Myers, and ignoring the whole group of young players and the rate at which they arrive. Vorobyev and NAK got looks already, neither did anything to stick. Nor have they gone back and dominated the AHL like Sanheim and Lindblom last season. Rubtsov was easily the best player on the Phantoms before he got hurt, right now Bunnaman is the best player, but SSS, if he continues to play like this through the Calder Cup playoffs he'll have an inside track for a NHL spot next year.

It's not about the players on the roster (unless a team is desperate, like Boston at forward right now), it's about the development of the prospects - first thing Fletcher did was go to a few LHV games and watch the young Phantoms. But there is no one on that team who is a slam dunk promotion right now, even Myers could use more polish. Once they move a few veterans before the TDL, there will be some callups, but there is no urgency right now from the FO's perspective.
 
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BiggE

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Same with Morin, who would have gotten at least 10 games last fall to show if he belonged if he hadn't gotten hurt, so absent injuries, Ghost makes the Flyers by the end of his 21 year old season and Morin at 22.

I think this myth is driven by fans wanting to see one or two "favorite" prospects, last year Sanheim, this year Myers, and ignoring the whole group of young players and the rate at which they arrive. Vorobyev and NAK got looks already, neither did anything to stick. Nor have they gone back and dominated the AHL like Sanheim and Lindblom last season. Rubtsov was easily the best player on the Phantoms before he got hurt, right now Bunnaman is the best player, but SSS, if he continues to play like this through the Calder Cup playoffs he'll have an inside track for a NHL spot next year.

It's not about the players on the roster (unless a team is desperate, like Boston at forward right now), it's about the development of the prospects - first thing Fletcher did was go to a few LHV games and watch the young Phantoms. But there is no one on that team who is a slam dunk promotion right now, even Myers could use more polish. Once they move a few veterans before the TDL, there will be some callups, but there is no urgency right now from the FO's perspective.

This is spot on, but I do understand most folks frustration. It's hard having to watch guys like Lehtera and Varone on a nightly basis.
 

baudib1

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Some teams get the fact that the AHL is not a place to make perfect players.

The Flyers think that if a player has flaws, they need to work on them until they're not flaws. I.E. Sam Morin is better than Hagg, but let's send him down so he can work on keeping his head up and his imperfect grammar.

Teams like Tampa and Boston and a few others just say, "This guy helps his, who cares if he's below average at these other things, he'll get better." and put in B prospects having C+ seasons over a David Backes who is actively worthless.

I don't even know what NAK's flaw is, but it must be something that Jorald is competent at.
 

landsbergfan

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This is spot on, but I do understand most folks frustration. It's hard having to watch guys like Lehtera and Varone on a nightly basis.
What have they done to you BiggE? It couldn't be less spot on. Yes, there are instances where it is mostly just frustration of not seeing a favorite prospect or two or understanding why a guy isn't called up. However, there are plenty of instances where a guy plays well enough to deserve a call up or does not get a fair treatment while they are here. Yeah, I guess NAK should've done more in that entire 6 minutes a night he got on the 4th line *rolls eyes*

Regardless of your stance on prospects over/under cooking, it is never guaranteed that players get called up when they actually deserve it. THAT is the most frustrating part. Did Hart deserve to be called up? He shows what can happen when you allow your most talented prospects a proper chance in the NHL. Ghost is another example of a young guy thriving when given a prime opportunity.

There are contract/waivers implications, and this year showed the importance of giving young players a chance to transition to the NHL before they are relied on to make an impact. Odd how it took around a season's worth of games for Sanheim to play top 4 minutes (okay fine that was because of Hakstol lol). Overcooking doesn't hurt their long term impact, but it absolutely can have a negative effect on a team and there is realistically nothing that proves overcooking leads to a more seamless transition to the NHL.
 

Captain Dave Poulin

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Some teams get the fact that the AHL is not a place to make perfect players.

The Flyers think that if a player has flaws, they need to work on them until they're not flaws. I.E. Sam Morin is better than Hagg, but let's send him down so he can work on keeping his head up and his imperfect grammar.

Teams like Tampa and Boston and a few others just say, "This guy helps his, who cares if he's below average at these other things, he'll get better." and put in B prospects having C+ seasons over a David Backes who is actively worthless.

I don't even know what NAK's flaw is, but it must be something that Jorald is competent at.

We have turned into an organization of cowards, and that bothers me infinitely more than anything else. Let them ****ing play.
 

Hiesenberg

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Hextall's logic about having to take a vets job was wildly annoying. He seemed to think vets were infallible to certain issues. MacDonald has been trash since day 1, but for some reason every dman had to take his job, or Mannings or whoever else was wasting time back there.
 

BiggE

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What have they done to you BiggE? It couldn't be less spot on. Yes, there are instances where it is mostly just frustration of not seeing a favorite prospect or two or understanding why a guy isn't called up. However, there are plenty of instances where a guy plays well enough to deserve a call up or does not get a fair treatment while they are here. Yeah, I guess NAK should've done more in that entire 6 minutes a night he got on the 4th line *rolls eyes*

Regardless of your stance on prospects over/under cooking, it is never guaranteed that players get called up when they actually deserve it. THAT is the most frustrating part. Did Hart deserve to be called up? He shows what can happen when you allow your most talented prospects a proper chance in the NHL. Ghost is another example of a young guy thriving when given a prime opportunity.

There are contract/waivers implications, and this year showed the importance of giving young players a chance to transition to the NHL before they are relied on to make an impact. Odd how it took around a season's worth of games for Sanheim to play top 4 minutes (okay fine that was because of Hakstol lol). Overcooking doesn't hurt their long term impact, but it absolutely can have a negative effect on a team and there is realistically nothing that proves overcooking leads to a more seamless transition to the NHL.
I guess I didn’t read it carefully enough. NAK absolutely should have gotten more of chance to show what he could do when we was here. I was just looking at it as right now, with the injuries, there really aren’t any forwards, other than Bailey who just got here as the bye was about to start, that you can bring up right now.

I do agree though that it was the right move to send Vorobyev down as his play was becoming more and more ineffective the longer he was up.
 
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BiggE

SELL THE DAMN TEAM
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We have turned into an organization of cowards, and that bothers me infinitely more than anything else. Let them ****ing play.
It’s frustrating because NAK should have been up here for months playing over Weise, Weal and Lehtera. Morin should have been with the Flyers from day one last season, it was a joke that Manning was playing over him. Now, with all the damn injuries at LHV their options are limited. I don’t know much about the kid they just got from Buffalo but if he’s healthy, get him in and Lehtera out as soon as this ****ing bye ends. I’ve had enough of that plodding coke head to last a lifetime!

All this being said, I don’t think they get it wrong with every prospect. Vorobyev was given a decent shot early and struggled during much of it. I also thought Myers starting the season in LHV was the right call in October but I would have waived AMac and brought him up at least 2 months ago.

When it comes to pro rookies like Rubtsov, Bunnamon and Twarynski, I do think LHV was the right place to start their pro careers as going from Junior right to the NHL is asking a lot of all but the very best prospects. Even Hart, as well as he’s playing right now, probably would have had a pretty rocky Oct/Nov if he had gone right to the NHL.
 

BiggE

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I agree with everything you said, except for this



... which is completely insane, no offense. He wasn't given a chance to work through jack ****, and he was obviously not supported with coaching. It will be fine in the long run, though, I am sure.
I hear ya, but with Hakstol still coaching at that point, I was glad he was sent down. Put him on a line with speedy wingers one of which who can finish and one who can win puck battles, and he’ll be a solid player for them next season.
 
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