Post-Game Talk: #46 | FLYERS (A) vs. Rangers (H) | Thursday, Apr. 22, 2021 | Flyers win 3-2

[flyershockey]

They have been extremely soft. Perhaps its magnified more because of the losses as well but the aversion to engaging in any real “after the whistle stuff”, or playing in an aggressive manner has been firmly around since Hakstol.

There are many examples of Konecny, Farabee, and other youngsters taking absolute punishment with little push back from the rest of the squad. I was somewhat surprised to see it bleed further with Couturier and Giroux being targets and no retaliation either.

Physicality isn’t where it used to be in this league, that’s clear. Teams that willingly get abused however are taken advantage of.

There is a saying, of initiate and don’t retaliate - that hasn’t consistently really been seen since the days of Laviolette.

A multitude of issues overall is obvious, but they are far too easy to play against - especially for a club that isn’t going to overwhelm teams with star power. I refuse to believe they all lost their balls as soon as being drafted here. It’s a message to play this way, that’s clear.

I think we're really talking about two separate things here.

AV coached teams have always carried the stigma that they're easy to play against. Those Vancouver teams would routinely get slapped around by Chicago, Boston, etc. It's clearly a message that AV puts out there not to engage in those situations. Hakstol was really no different in that regard. We've seen guys like Giroux, Couturier, and Voracek mix it up plenty in the past. And we've seen a noticeable neutering of guys like Konecny, Myers, Laughton in the last 12 months.

But I don't think that lack of physicality is why they're suddenly getting dominated by Boston and Washington. As Striker said, they got great results against both those teams just last year. This year they're not getting getting the goaltending needed to bail out horrific penalty killing. They're also entirely too turnover prone at even strength, which teams like Boston and Washington are going to shred you on in transition. You could argue that the turnovers are individual mistakes or a larger system problem, but I think the latter is more likely. Again, it's not new that AV teams rely on Vezina level goaltending performances to be successful.

 

[FlyerNutter]

I think we're really talking about two separate things here.

AV coached teams have always carried the stigma that they're easy to play against. Those Vancouver teams would routinely get slapped around by Chicago, Boston, etc. It's clearly a message that AV puts out there not to engage in those situations. Hakstol was really no different in that regard. We've seen guys like Giroux, Couturier, and Voracek mix it up plenty in the past. And we've seen a noticeable neutering of guys like Konecny, Myers, Laughton is the last 12 months.

But I don't think that lack of physicality is why they're suddenly getting dominated by Boston and Washington. As Striker said, they got great results against both those teams just last year. This year they're not getting getting the goaltending needed to bail out horrific penalty killing. They're also entirely too turnover prone at even strength, which teams like Boston and Washington are going to shred you on in transition. You could argue that the turnovers are individual mistakes or a larger system problem, but I think the latter is more likely. Again, it's not new that AV teams rely on Vezina level goaltending performances to be successful.

I don’t think it’s the main issue. For a club that can’t come close to even sniffing the cup in 10 years it’s a lot of things.

I do however think they are easy to play against, and the “soft” label does kind of apply to them as a group. I don’t think we’ve gathered a bunch of eunuchs, it’s a message that’s being sent of how to play.

If they were prime time Chicago, Pittsburgh or those Buffalo clubs lead by Briere and Drury they could get by more on just talent - but this team isn’t close to one of those clubs. You’d like to see them address being so willingly punished and simply talking it on the chin, but I’m not sure under AV that’s a change that will be made.

 

[flyershockey]

Mix it up isn't the issue, winning board battles, going to the net, etc.

JVR is a good example, great at going to the net on the PP when it's 5 on 4 and the defense can't punish him as much, but is often MIA 5x5.
Now some players aren't strong enough for that role, but I've seen teams rotate forwards through the crease instead of having them stand there, that's a good move for TK and Farabee. Too often the Flyers cycle around the perimeter, never attack the trapezoid or set screens.

Now some of this may be COVID, Lindblom showed flashes earlier in the season of being his old self, but has really faded.

I'm going to agree with you here. The Flyers are a mess on the in-zone cycle and puck support is a real problem. Guys are standing around too often looking at the puck carrier and waiting for something to happen, and defensemen are not engaging nearly enough to create breakdowns.

I just don't think it's a physicality issue. Board battles can be won just as easily with speed and support as they can with strength (Tampa Bay being the best example). Neutral zone play in transition is also pretty atrocious, but that's a point that has been argued to death around here in coaching discussions.

 

[deadhead]

I'm going to agree with you here. The Flyers are a mess on the in-zone cycle and puck support is a real problem. Guys are standing around too often looking at the puck carrier and waiting for something to happen, and defensemen are not engaging nearly enough to create breakdowns.

I just don't think it's a physicality issue. Board battles can be won just as easily with speed and support as they can with strength (Tampa Bay being the best example). Neutral zone play in transition is also pretty atrocious, but that's a point that has been argued to death around here in coaching discussions.

TB is one of the most physical teams in the NHL, with a huge defense and lots of guys who play physical, Cirelli, Goodrow, Coleman, Killorn, Palat, Maroon, Joseph. It's infectious as well, Tyler Johnson has 55 hits and Guorde has 45 hits and those guys are smurfs. Only "soft" forwards are Stamkos and Point.

This is not an accident, people still think of them as the team 2-3 years ago when they dominated the regular season with skill and folded like a pack of cards in the playoffs. That was their wake-up call.

 

[flyershockey]

TB is one of the most physical teams in the NHL, with a huge defense and lots of guys who play physical, Cirelli, Goodrow, Coleman, Killorn, Palat, Maroon, Joseph. It's infectious as well, Tyler Johnson has 55 hits and Guorde has 45 hits and those guys are smurfs. Only "soft" forwards are Stamkos and Point.

This is not an accident, people still think of them as the team 2-3 years ago when they dominated the regular season with skill and folded like a pack of cards in the playoffs. That was their wake-up call.

Are we really going to use hits as our metric here? It's arguably the most subjective stat currently being tracked. I'd venture to guess being a quick team with great puck support is probably more of a driving factor to their success.

I could be wrong, but I think their elite players dominating for 2 months was the determining factor to them getting over the hump. Who knew all along it was the heaviness of Barcley Goodrow? It certainly wasn't the two goals that he and Maroon combined for in 25 playoff games.

 

[deadhead]

Are we really going to use hits as our metric here? It's arguably the most subjective stat currently being tracked. I'd venture to guess being a quick team with great puck support is probably more of a driving factor to their success.

I could be wrong, but I think their elite players dominating for 2 months was the determining factor to them getting over the hump. Who knew all along it was the heaviness of Barcley Goodrow? It certainly wasn't the two goals that he and Maroon combined for in 25 playoff games.

Hits are a crude proxy, but for forwards, it does indicate who avoids contact.
Point is TB comes in waves, and it's not just quickness, they had that 3-4 years ago, it's getting to the puck with attitude.
Guorde was 5-7 12 at ES, Coleman 5-8 13 playing on the same line with Goodrow, his dirty work helped lead to their scoring.
Guorde, Coleman, Goodrow were 5-7th in PO ES minutes, Cirelli was 4th.

 

[Striiker]

You know who doesn’t get a lot of hits? Good players who have a puck a lot. You don’t rack up many hits in the offensive zone with the puck on your stick.

Unless people guys think Couturier and Giroux are soft? That would be quite the hot take.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think we're really talking about two separate things here.

AV coached teams have always carried the stigma that they're easy to play against. Those Vancouver teams would routinely get slapped around by Chicago, Boston, etc. It's clearly a message that AV puts out there not to engage in those situations. Hakstol was really no different in that regard. We've seen guys like Giroux, Couturier, and Voracek mix it up plenty in the past. And we've seen a noticeable neutering of guys like Konecny, Myers, Laughton in the last 12 months.

But I don't think that lack of physicality is why they're suddenly getting dominated by Boston and Washington. As Striker said, they got great results against both those teams just last year. This year they're not getting getting the goaltending needed to bail out horrific penalty killing. They're also entirely too turnover prone at even strength, which teams like Boston and Washington are going to shred you on in transition. You could argue that the turnovers are individual mistakes or a larger system problem, but I think the latter is more likely. Again, it's not new that AV teams rely on Vezina level goaltending performances to be successful.

Lavi's system that gets the least-occupied forward back on D ASAFP in transition also ensures dump and chase is fruitless, and stretch passing will just meet resistance instead of beating the other team before they can organize.

Honestly the only hockey system that I can easily see AV's plan dominating is another system just like his.

 

[BernieParent]

Teams with a bottom-2 PK can't afford to be overly physical. And the refs have shown a particular zeal for handing out penalties to Flyers players. That being said, it is embarrassing to have been dominated physically by multiple teams when the game was out of reach.

 

[deadhead]

When you see players standing in front of your goalie for extended periods, ordering a cup of coffee, discussing their kids with Elliott, something is wrong.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

When you see players standing in front of your goalie for extended periods, ordering a cup of coffee, discussing their kids with Elliott, something is wrong.

When you see [literally anything that has happened this season], something is wrong.

 

[Rebels57]

• Turns game on
• Watches Ghost let Buchnevich just walk in front and score because he thought Giroux was a Ranger for some bizarre reason
• Turns game off

 

[Lindberg]

• Turns game on
• Watches Ghost let Buchnevich just walk in front and score because he thought Giroux was a Ranger for some bizarre reason
• Turns game off

Possibly coaching in that regard, seems like some coaches don't want a d man to just leave the net wide open.