Post-Game Talk: #3 | Flyers at Lightning | October 18, 2022 | 7pm | Win 3-2

[Jersey Fan 12]

Because in order for the team to compete for a Stanley Cup they need Super high quality players or generational players through the draft. This is how 90% of teams ended up winning the Stanley cup over the last 15 years.

Torts will make the team finish tenth worst instead of 4th worst. It is just delaying the inevitable. The team needs to rebuild, not limp along with an aging roster of bad contracts. Chicago and Montreal get it.

We'll end up being on the outside of the playoffs at the trade deadline and trade our first round pick for Jonathan Toews to try to get us over the top. Even if the team were to make the playoffs, so what? They are not Cup contenders and they don't have the players to BE Cup contenders. I want them to actually do what it takes to be Cup contenders, but for this managment, as long as the team seems to be trying to win now, they believe they can trick the fans into thinking the team is actually a contender; and it will work. That's the sad part.

I'm an old man. I get people wanting to be able to cheer for the Flyers again. I get the desire to think the team will somehow compete for a Cup. But I have lived through this for the past 40 years - a team that is good, but not good enough to win the Cup. I want a complete rebuild like what Chicago and Detroit are doing. I want a team that can compete for the Cup for an 8 year window, not a hope to get lucky.

Tortorella is the type of coach you bring in when you are a team like the Florida Panthers - a guy you hope can put it all together (before the inevitable implosion that he leads to) to get you over the top. All he will do for us is make us look better than we really are. And then after 3 years of missing the playoffs, or maybe getting lucky and making it once, what then? We will have no players of any real significance to build around, and the team will slump back to how we were this past season.

With the track record of this team in its poor drafting and development, it is not like they are going to find a diamond in the rough. Then it takes any shine on the players and makes them worse. The only hope is to have a player that is so good, this team can't ruin him. I don't know if that is even possible.

I suppose if every player on the team was used so incorrectly and poorly the last three years, that it is possible for Torts to have each person play up to their potential - Provorov as a true #1 d-man, Hart as a Vezina trophy candidate, Frost as a 60-70 point player, Konecny as a 70 point player, Farabee scoring 35 goals, Sanheim as a consistent solid top 4, York coming out as a good #2, etc., but do we really think this is going to happen? That's a big gamble. And even then, how does this team compete with the Avalanche?

So anyway, I am concerned about the long game and I think that what is happening now is making the long game have to wait that much longer. I'd rather stink now and burn it down to rebuild than try to somehow make something out of this cracked foundation.

That hasn't worked very well for New Jersey nor Edmonton.

And to the Flyers' credit, they already appear to have the goalie in place.

 

[Tripod]

Because they’ve spent so long complaining about how absolutely awful are the team, coach, & management, that these “fans’” identities are tied to the Flyers being terrible.

But the team is still awful and is being dominated. It's Hart and his .940+ SV% and the crazy PDO that is giving the team wins, not good play.


But you keep believing in that good GM Fletch.

 

[landsbergfan]

 

[Beef Invictus]

Because they’ve spent so long complaining about how absolutely awful are the team, coach, & management, that these “fans’” identities are tied to the Flyers being terrible.

The Flyers are being outplayed nightly. Again.

They are still terrible.

 

[renberg]

After the last few seasons of watching bad hockey, having the club look like it’s on the path to being at least respectable is satisfying. Are the SC contenders or threats to make the POs? No. However they don’t look like the dogs that they’ve been recently.
The turn around starts with the guy behind the bench. Can he be a jerk? Sure and he’ll admit that. He also knows what he wants to see going on out on the ice and that it makes for competitive play. One can see that he is pushing accountability. The players know that and most of them have upped their effort accordingly.
They’re not going to be a good team for a while. It’s going to take some time to get away from what they’ve been for the last several seasons. They not only need to learn what Torts wants them to do but also unlearn what they’ve been allowed to get away with. It’ll take time but their are a few glimmers going on right now that offer hope.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, guys like Lecavalier and St. Louis rarely left the bench when he coached them.

Some posts are just silly.

Am I the only one noticing that JVR looks like a new player with Tortorella?

Yes. JVR has always played well. He's not looking different.

TB was a long, long time ago. Nowadays Tortorella punishes skilled players for missing on a 2on1 decision while gushing over someone like MacEwen. And complaining bitterly about how much offens McDavid produces.

 

[tucson83]

Will you stop being a fan if the team ever wins two Cups in a row?

are you if we make the playoffs or if we win a cup next year without bedard? is he that important to you that you would rather jump off the bridge for him when you know the odds of getting him are slim?

 

[Beef Invictus]

are you if we make the playoffs or if we win a cup next year without bedard? is he that important to you that you would rather jump off the bridge for him when you know the odds of getting him are slim?

We aren't getting Bedard. I'm not jumping off the bridge for him. Luckily, there's always more than one player in a draft.

The Flyers are awful. They might as well maximize the benefits of being awful so that they can become good.

You oppose the team getting better for some reason. You also oppose success for some reason.

 

[FLYguy3911]

All da burners.

 

[Pantokrator]

That hasn't worked very well for New Jersey nor Edmonton.

And to the Flyers' credit, they already appear to have the goalie in place.

True - it hasn't worked for those teams. You could even add Toronto to that list, but to be fair, Edmonton and Toronto are real threats and NJ is still on the rise.

But it did work for Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA, Tampa, the Caps, and The Avs.

Also, the floundering around model hasn't worked for teams like Dallas, Calgary, Minnesota, Columbus, Islanders, Nashville, and San Jose to name a few.

 

[tucson83]

We aren't getting Bedard. I'm not jumping off the bridge for him. Luckily, there's always more than one player in a draft.

The Flyers are awful. They might as well maximize the benefits of being awful so that they can become good.

You oppose the team getting better for some reason. You also oppose success for some reason.

there's fa, there's trades, what's so bad about buying talent if there's there? you might pry mcdavid, matthews, pasta like why does it have to be from the draft when the odds are against you?

 

[Striiker]

Yeah, @Beef Invictus . Why draft elite talent when you can instead overpay for the talent that teams are willing to let go?

That's how smart GMs build teams.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Posters who took the under in "The Poll" are shaking rn.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Every time I think he couldn't possibly get any more stupid ...

 

[Pantokrator]

im sick of this notion that we need talented players, look at the blues what stars did they have when they won their cup? kings won two cups, they didnt have a crosby or ovi type of player. tampa lost stamkos in bubble 2020 and still won a cup.

pens had injuries in 2016 with a concussed crosby and no letang and still won the cup. it's a team sport, if you keep harping on the fact that you need a crosby type of player to win championships and no one else playing hard from all the lines and goaltending then you are never going to win a cup. only thing star players give is more boost to goal scoring but it doesnt change the fact that you need effort from everyone and not just a star.

i mean what happens when you lose stars to injury, you want them to just quit competing? such a loser mentality.

I appreciate the comments. This is a necessary discussion.

The Kings had Drew Doughty taken #2 in 2008. He was a monster on defense. They developed Kopitar, who would have gone higher in the draft but he was from Slovenia playing in Sweden, so he fell to 11th.

Pens still had Malkin (#2 in 2004) and Crosby, even though he was hurt.

Blues and Boston are the anomoly - they built their teams with good drafting, trading and development.

So let me ask you this - how would you plan to win the Cup with the team as it is?

With our salary cap maxed out, we can't add any players like O'Reilly like the Blues did. And our cap is maxed out for the next few years, so we can't get any better from bringing in established talent like Gaudreau. Fletcher also does not seem to be able to pull the wool over his fellow GMS - in fact, it seems quite the opposite - we seem to get hosed in trades.

Do you trust our team to pull a Bergeron out of the draft or a Marchand? Do you see any players in our system that make you think they will become arguably the best defensive forward of this generation and an annoying top 5 point scoring player?

Do you trust our management to develop Farabee into a Pastrnak? It seems to me our management is more likely to take a Pastrnak and turn him into Patrick Brown.

I say no to all of these, which is why I do not think the team can pull off a Boston or St Louis type of Cup run.

I also see that many of our core players are at their prime or moving past it. Hayes, Couts, Ristolainen are all heading toward the downside of their careers. They are not on the rise, which means that when this team arguably could be developed, they will all be in their mid thirties.

Now, to be fair, you could see a team like the 84-85 Flyers that seemingly came out of nowhere with Keenan and a bunch of good young players, but even that team couldn't get us past Edmonton in 85 or 87.

So I want to try something the team has never done - fail continually like the Sixers did and hope that works. Granted, as you point out, that is still a crap shoot, but I think the odds are much better than trying to win with this group.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I mean, the team is awful. They have 3 fluke wins. It isn't sustainable, but you can't admit that

I can’t admit what? That they aren’t going to go undefeated? LOL.

I predicted 86 points for this team if *healthy*, & that was before the Couturier Atkinson Tippett & Risto's injuries.

But there have been a lot of positives already this season, & that’s what I want to see. I’ll let you & the haters harp on the negatives.

 

[tucson83]

I appreciate the comments. This is a necessary discussion.

The Kings had Drew Doughty taken #2 in 2008. He was a monster on defense. They developed Kopitar, who would have gone higher in the draft but he was from Slovenia playing in Sweden, so he fell to 11th.

Pens still had Malkin (#2 in 2004) and Crosby, even though he was hurt.

Blues and Boston are the anomoly - they built their teams with good drafting, trading and development.

So let me ask you this - how would you plan to win the Cup with the team as it is?

With our salary cap maxed out, we can't add any players like O'Reilly like the Blues did. And our cap is maxed out for the next few years, so we can't get any better from bringing in established talent like Gaudreau. Fletcher also does not seem to be able to pull the wool over his fellow GMS - in fact, it seems quite the opposite - we seem to get hosed in trades.

Do you trust our team to pull a Bergeron out of the draft or a Marchand? Do you see any players in our system that make you think they will become arguably the best defensive forward of this generation and an annoying top 5 point scoring player?

Do you trust our management to develop Farabee into a Pastrnak? It seems to me our management is more likely to take a Pastrnak and turn him into Patrick Brown.

I say no to all of these, which is why I do not think the team can pull off a Boston or St Louis type of Cup run.

I also see that many of our core players are at their prime or moving past it. Hayes, Couts, Ristolainen are all heading toward the downside of their careers. They are not on the rise, which means that when this team arguably could be developed, they will all be in their mid thirties.

Now, to be fair, you could see a team like the 84-85 Flyers that seemingly came out of nowhere with Keenan and a bunch of good young players, but even that team couldn't get us past Edmonton in 85 or 87.

So I want to try something the team has never done - fail continually like the Sixers did and hope that works. Granted, as you point out, that is still a crap shoot, but I think the odds are much better than trying to win with this group.

this is the problem here, everyone wants a dynasty and yet it's hard enough to win cups in this salary cap league that winning one cup is good enough for me because of how the draft system and classes are. no one understands it, they just want to go against the system and think they will get a dynasty out of it when they find out they are the phoenix coyotes of suckage because they cant accept it for what it is and work with what you can control.

 

[Beef Invictus]

there's fa, there's trades, what's so bad about buying talent if there's there? you might pry mcdavid, matthews, pasta like why does it have to be from the draft when the odds are against you?

NHL salary cap - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Fight4yourRight]

After the last few seasons of watching bad hockey, having the club look like it’s on the path to being at least respectable is satisfying. Are the SC contenders or threats to make the POs? No. However they don’t look like the dogs that they’ve been recently.
The turn around starts with the guy behind the bench. Can he be a jerk? Sure and he’ll admit that. He also knows what he wants to see going on out on the ice and that it makes for competitive play. One can see that he is pushing accountability. The players know that and most of them have upped their effort accordingly.
They’re not going to be a good team for a while. It’s going to take some time to get away from what they’ve been for the last several seasons. They not only need to learn what Torts wants them to do but also unlearn what they’ve been allowed to get away with. It’ll take time but their are a few glimmers going on right now that offer hope.

You are awfully naive if this is your true take on it. They are being horribly outplayed in almost every category imaginable. It will only take a few more games and things, including their unsustainable goaltending and SP% will level off.

Also, bolded is exactly why Torts is a terrible hiring. He’ll squeeze this team for every single point possible and we’ll finish 10th last instead of bottom 3. This would also give Cuck another year at least. Literally nightmare fuel.

 

[Striiker]

You still can't convince me that's a real person.

 

[Bob Clarke Fan Club]

It appears Frost got benched after the semi 2-on-1 where his pass was deflected. Maybe he should ave shot, but he at least was trying to make a play (and got himself in a position to do just take). But the Flyers would rather have MacNothing wildly "skating" around, bear hugging people, taking penalties a shooting wide by a country mile becasue he looks like he's trying "real" hard.....

I'm sure the flyers would rather play Frost and have him contribute offensively. They won, what's the issue with a guy being coached?

 

[Striiker]

I'm sure the flyers would rather play Frost and have him contribute offensively. They won, what's the issue with a guy being coached?

What's the issue with one of their best performing players being benched for no reason, while far worse players make constant mistakes and still play?

Good question. Can't imagine anything wrong with that. They won after all, so there's no problems.

 

[Bob Clarke Fan Club]

The Flyers are being outplayed nightly. Again.

They are still terrible.

You don't see a difference in defensive positioning or puck support? I mean, heaven forbid they get outplayed by Tampa. They're working harder and smarter, Hart has been good ...but I'll bet if you asked him, he'd tell you he's having an easier time seeing the puck. They still could be terrible, but they haven't been yet this season.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm sure the flyers would rather play Frost and have him contribute offensively. They won, what's the issue with a guy being coached?

If they'd rather play him then they could just play him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You don't see a difference in defensive positioning or puck support? I mean, heaven forbid they get outplayed by Tampa. They're working harder and smarter, Hart has been good ...but I'll bet if you asked him, he'd tell you he's having an easier time seeing the puck. They still could be terrible, but they haven't been yet this season.

Sure there's some difference. And in transition too.

It's not enough. They still suck. Hart is winning these games.

I mean, last year the Coyotes were more structured. It's not exactly a feat to gain more.