Post-Game Talk: 3/29, Sharks 2 - Pens 3 (SO)

[Dipsy Doodle]

I honestly do not believe it was as much the lack of talent the past half decade as idiotic coaching that held the Pens back from the success that they should have had. I am not saying cups, a lot has to go right for even a great team to run that guantlet, but they should have achieved a lot more. And except for the year when they lost their top stars, they should have done more and that is almost entirely on Disco. They had the horses to legitimately win it all pretty much each year.

It was Fleury. His run from 2010 to 2013 was historically bad. Scotty Bowman couldn't have won with MAF in net those years.

 

[Gurglesons]

Another reason I want to get Babcock at any cost this summer. Maybe he'll be able to coax some of the scouts over from Detroit.

You mean the Babcock that continuously insisted on playing Dan Clearly until this year?

The list isn't pointless, you just don't like what it says. As SHOOTANDSCORE pointed out, not only are we last, but we aren't even close to moving out of that position. Teams that have had far more success than us in the lat five years are managing to get 2 or 3 times the production we are.

The only teams that have had more success than us in the last five years are Chicago, LA, and Boston.

This list looks at youth involvement per points. Most of our draft picks have been defenseman.

I completely agree with the fact that the Penguins are a horrendous team in terms of player development. I also think the Penguins have been a pretty horrible drafting team since the early '90s. Still the fact that we've been able to pull players like Morrow, Maatta, Bennett and Despres in the late rounds of the first round is impressive. The issue is our coaching staff and management staff that are complete idiots.

The next two or three years will really show what kind of team this Penguins squad is. We couldn't hold off on long term contracts, Chicago, LA, and Boston are just having to deal with that. What we do in this off season is pretty important to us being a team that is able to make small adjustments and put together a cup winning roster or a team that is going to continuously go for it like Calgary three or four years ago.

Then again, I think we have a chance to make the Cup Finals this year, so everyone on here thinks I'm crazy.

 

[JTG]

Why?

I'm filling 2 positions in my company right now. I can either get ahead at night so days aren't so bad, or I can watch hockey. I've tried really hard to make the adult decision, but that **** isn't going to last for much longer.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I'm filling 2 positions in my company right now. I can either get ahead at night so days aren't so bad, or I can watch hockey. I've tried really hard to make the adult decision, but that **** isn't going to last for much longer.

Winnik's looked great--better and better as time goes on. Hoping beyond hope we manage to re-sign him this summer. Kunitz is still a ****ing corpse on skates. Comeau's come back to Earth in a big way and is playing like the 3rd/4th liner he's been for the past few years. Pouliot's looked alright, nothing spectacular, but nothing too terrible. Cole's been decent, better than expected. Hoping he continues to improve and we can do for him what we did for Niskanen.

Oh, and it's becoming harder and harder to not believe that Johnston is just Bylsma wearing a mask.

 

[ILikeTurtles]

In regards to the list, Maatta only was able to play 20 games, so there would be a few more games added to the list.

 

[KIRK]

The unfortunate thing with Comeau is that if he wasn't hurt, I bet he'd still be where he was.

It's hard to say if he remembered that he was Comeau or if his hand injury, which he admitted wasn't 100%, is still really bothering him and affecting his play.

I don't know. What I do know is that this Comeau isn't enough.

In the playoffs, the only way the 2nd line thrives is if you get a perfect storm of Geno in god mode, Kunitz coming as close as reasonably can be expected to his A game (which honestly is a playoff third liner or maybe what a guy like Recchi gave Boston in their cup run), and Comeau being the guy he was early in the season.

The first is too much to ask (to ask Geno to be Mario every game ). The second is highly unlikely. And the third . . . as you say, be it injury or something else, it's not happening.

Johnston COULD mitigate things with more proper bench management and utilizing Malkin on other lines (like yesterday, he could've centered Perron and Bennett for a shift to limit Kunitz's minutes). But, he's every bit as incompetent a bench boss as Bylsma ever was.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

...

This list looks at youth involvement per points. Most of our draft picks have been defenseman.
...

Actually it looks to be more heavily weighted towards playing time contributions, so it isn't exactly unfriendly to defensemen.

We are still lowest in TOI and percent TOI, as well as points.

Also, Maatta may be out but Despres, Dumo, Harrington, and Pouliot all got more time because of that. That likely minimizes the impact, statistically.

 

[Ugene Magic]

It was Fleury. His run from 2010 to 2013 was historically bad. Scotty Bowman couldn't have won with MAF in net those years.

"But you got to play defense if you wanna win, Mario." - Scotty Bowman


Something tells me He knows a lot more about winning when it matters than a Shero/Bylsma combined tandem. MT new more than these two.

Fleury was a byproduct of a terrible coach and GM who left him out to dry. What makes a great goalie is a sound system and defense in front of him. He had neither.

 

[mpp9]

It was Fleury. His run from 2010 to 2013 was historically bad. Scotty Bowman couldn't have won with MAF in net those years.

So why do you think Fleury looks so much better this year?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

So why do you think Fleury looks so much better this year?

They finally addressed the problem, we can talk about other things but they finally bothered to really handle him. Quite possibly the biggest **** up, top 5 at least, was letting MAF flounder for so long, it shouldn't have taken that long to get an actual goalie coach and to stick him in a room with a sports psychologist. Last season was a step in the right direction and this one is hopefully another. I think what the team is doing in front of him isn't as destructive overall for Fleury, but it's a two part fix, minimum. Coaching was also a colossal issue and we're still in wait and see mode with Johnston no matter what people want to say. RRP might say differently about the old staff, but

Pittsburgh Penguins: taking years to realize the obvious and do something

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So why do you think Fleury looks so much better this year?

He looked better last year too. Probably in good part because he finally, literally decided to get his head examined.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Fleury was a byproduct of a terrible coach and GM who left him out to dry. What makes a great goalie is a sound system and defense in front of him. He had neither.

Fleury was a byproduct of his dysfunctional brain that fell apart when pressure mounted. Shero and Bylsma weren't making him perpetually overhandle the puck or throw the damn thing in his own net.

There's a very good reason why Fleury's got a longer blooper reel than any goalie on the planet, and it ain't the former Pens brass.

 

[Iffyiffiffer]

Sean: It's not your fault.
Marc-Andre: Yeah I know that.
Sean: It's not your fault.
Marc-Andre: I know.
Sean: It's not your fault.
Marc-Andre: I know.
Sean: It's not your fault.
Marc-Andre: *cries*
Sean: *dies*

 

[BeautiPhil]

Fleury certainly was a part of the problem those years, but let's not even pretend that we played any semblance of defense in front of him against the Flyers in '12.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Fleury certainly was a part of the problem those years, but let's not even pretend that we played any semblance of defense in front of him against the Flyers in '12.

Fleury didn't once have a SV% in the .900s between '10 and '13, and his SV% vs. the Flyers in '12 was .834.

.834

 

[Human]

Fleury didn't once have a SV% in the .900s between '10 and '13, and his SV% vs. the Flyers in '12 was .834.

.834

shhh, the Pens had the worst D since the 80's obviously... and MAF's equipment was 80's size too...

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

shhh, the Pens had the worst D since the 80's obviously... and MAF's equipment was 80's size too...

Yep. Pretty rich.

 

[Human]

So why do you think Fleury looks so much better this year?

2008-2009 PENGUINS 62 35 18 - 7 4 162 1,850 .912 2.67 3,641
2009-2010 PENGUINS 67 37 21 - 6 1 168 1,772 .905 2.65 3,798
2010-2011 PENGUINS 65 36 20 - 5 3 143 1,742 .918 2.32 3,695
2011-2012 PENGUINS 67 42 17 - 4 3 153 1,768 .913 2.36 3,896
2012-2013 PENGUINS 33 23 8 - 0 1 74 881 .916 2.39 1,858
2013-2014 PENGUINS 64 39 18 - 5 5 150 1,774 .915 2.37 3,792
2014-2015 PENGUINS 59 33 17 - 8 9 131 1,668 .921 2.26 3,477

he is not THAT much better stats-wise... I would say he is pretty inconsistant considering he has 9 SOs...

but he was better I guess, just not that much...

 

[plaidchuck]

Interestingly enough the players in 92 overrided bowman and decided to run the modified trap that helped them come back against Washington. IIRC Bowman didn't want to change anything.

But yeah pinning that flyers series all on fleury is laughable. He was merely a symptom of a deeply rooted problem. The team still sucked with vokoun playing out of his mind.

 

[mpp9]

A .921 save % and a 2.26 GAA is significantly better than his career numbers of .911 and 2.58.

 

[plaidchuck]

Tldr, it's the culture, no amount of trades or sports psychologists will fix that. For a pro hockey athlete Pittsburgh is a good spot to live the good life while avoiding the super critical spotlight you see in other markets. Winning probably isn't that high of a priority ultimately.

 

[Human]

Interestingly enough the players in 92 overrided bowman and decided to run the modified trap that helped them come back against Washington. IIRC Bowman didn't want to change anything.

But yeah pinning that flyers series all on fleury is laughable. He was merely a symptom of a deeply rooted problem. The team still sucked with vokoun playing out of his mind.

maybe the team was a symptom of MAF being the biggest issue... the guy scored goals on his own net during that series and the Isles one next season...

 

[plaidchuck]

maybe the team was a symptom of MAF being the biggest issue... the guy scored goals on his own net during that series and the Isles one next season...

Hey , whatever explanation makes you feel better. I'm no maf fan but like I said he's a symptom not the disease.

 

[Human]

Hey , whatever explanation makes you feel better. I'm no maf fan but like I said he's a symptom not the disease.

whatever explanation makes you feel better then...

 

[plaidchuck]

whatever explanation makes you feel better then...

Exactly. A whole lot of confirmation bias going on here for everyone. Maf sucked, the team sucked without him, the team has sucked with him playing average to good, etc.

His main fault is even playing well he probably can't steal a series like lundqvist. When you have a top goalie like that you can win a series even being offensively ******** like the rangers under torts.