Post-Game Talk: #28 - 12/02/18 | jets @ RANGERS | 6:00 - MSG

[Machinehead]

The core is in the process of changing. It will take some time. Trust the process.

Think that it would take a lot of salary retention for not a big return. Just do not see him having that much value. Which does not mean that I would not welcome him being moved.

Shattenkirk is still a top 4 defenseman. I know you don't think so, but that's fine.

And really, his contract isn't bad at all. He makes enough salary but there's very little term on it.

I would hope there would be other avenues to fix the defense before then. Staal/Smith/Shattenkirk all expiring in 2020-21, should have added a ton of assets by then. Should have a ton of cap room. I would hope it doesn't take that long.

That depends on how we do. If we're decent in two years, I would absolutely encourage them to explore free agency. If we're still this is two years, there's no point.

 

[Machinehead]

Yup. And not get too ahead of where some of these players are in their development. I want to be able to push players down in the lineup because of talent accumulation. I’d rather not go through what we’re seeing is happening to Brady Skjei.

Once Miller is ready to take a shot at the NHL, it might be a good idea to bring in a veteran top 4 LHD to insulate him. Let the veteran take minutes over his head.

One advantage a rebuilding team has is that they can pretty much hand out contracts of 2 years or less at will. We could also use this tactic to get more trade ammo. "Look, everyone! So and so has been a #1 D for us!" NHL execs aren't gonna care about his -9 corsi rel.

 

[TheTakedown]

I’m sorry but I have no idea how any watches Lias Andersson and goes “man great pick at 7 especially considering we are desperate for high end talent. That kid has all the tools to be a 60 plus point player in his prime”.

The kid has zero tools zero. We just can not afford to not get game breaking talent drafting in the top 7 picks again. Cannot do it. We’re going to have that chance again this summer and I’m terrified at what we might do.

I’m sorry I don’t want to keep bringing it up but I can’t get over it. He shows nothing that makes you go yeah I see it. He just has to put it all together. He doesn’t have the skills the size the skating to actually put together.

I want to give it more time, but I am getting scared that this is the player he actually is.

He's he's only played 21 NHL games so I can't let such a small sample size tarnish my view of him. he's shown to excel at every level he's been placed, let's just hope that the NHL doesn't prove to be the one place he can't.

 

[TheTakedown]

It was a weak draft for high end talent. Half this board clamors for Casey M but he is hot garbage. Pick was in no mans land based on what happened 1-6.

That's the real issue... What was there to get in the first 20 picks of that draft?

2017 NHL Entry Draft | Hockey-Reference.com

Cal Foote? Nick Suzuki? Liljeren?

Other than those three, Chytil is the best player out of that 1st round by a long shot.

 

[JHS]

He never dominates the game and there's lots of guys he can't outskate.

He does have the best shot and he's a great compliment but he wouldn't be scoring a goal every night if he wasn't playing in the best top 6 in the league.

You make him sound like he's Ovechkin, driving offense and creating for his teammates. No. Laine needs to be set up.

He's great to have, but he's not necessary to win in this league.

I would easily take Scheifele and Wheeler over him.

We can agree to disagree but I watched a lo of Jets playoff games last year and he absolutely dominated many shifts. The guy is so young he has many years to develop into what Scheifele and Wheeler are!

I completely agree with you-- I'd take all 3-- but Laine is far better than a nice piece to have!

 

[TheTakedown]

To be fair, people would have said this about Blake Wheeler until he was about 29.

Connor and Ehlers are good players, nothing unattainable.

Laine is a nice piece, but I don't think he drives that team. It's not something you absolutely need to contend.

We need the Scheifele. That's what this organization is missing right now.

I like this assessment. Kudos

 

[TheTakedown]

Kyle Connor in his D+2 season looked lost. Mark Scheifele didn't make it full time until his D+3.

Remember that before declaring Chytil and Andersson busts.

Even in his D+3 season, he wasn't bad, but he was streaky as all hell. This year he's finally put it together.

 

[TheTakedown]

Kravstov is the guy that stands out that can be the marner type of points producer. He’s that talented. The crown jewel as far as I’m concerned of the .org.

Chytil has the size skating vision and skills to be a beast. He needs to calm down around the net and work on his defending. All things I expect him to do as he gets older. I think he’s a future 60 pt plus guy maybe more. I just dont think he’s the elite 1C I think we need. I think he’d be a beast on a second line by the time he’s 21 22.

I think Zibanejad *is* that 1C that we need.

 

[TheTakedown]

I think Andersson has a really good shot, he just has to use it more.

Andersson needs to be put in a place where he can think, and THEN do the game.

He's also playing with shit linemates who just motor around and check people. He's got nobody to pass to, nobody to work with, mostly just AHL fodder. Howden is a rookie, that's who his centerman was last night.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I would try to get two more fists, and I would also continue to focus on close-to-ready prospects and young NHL players with another step to take. ADA and Zibanejad have been great adds.

What else can we move? I think Skjei is what he is. A lot of teams would have use for Shattenkirk.

After that, I think we've run out of worthwhile pieces to move.

The additions of Zibanejad and ADA, as well as Howden, are what already makes this rebuild so different than even the 2004 rebuild. The best player the Rangers traded for in that attempt was Blair Betts. They also were only able to add one additional 1st round pick. The assets acquired in this rebuild have so much more value than what happened the last time around.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Can we wait until year 3 of the rebuild before we get crushed by the falling sky? We have no idea what we get in a return for our deadline deals this year and maybe even next year. They arent building this team in 8 months.

 

[TheTakedown]

I bought a case of that stuff. How much did you buy? I truly thought Smith was the answer to what was ailing the Rangers defense, at the time. We needed physicality on the back end, and he provided just that. Furthermore, i thought he would be quite the leader, in showing our other dmen "how to play tuff defense". Boy, was I taken.
Still say he isnt a "bad defenseman", but he seems to have his head up his ass way too often. Mistakes happen in todays fast NHL, but "stupidity" isnt what he should be teaching the kids.

Wonder if the AVitis was too much for him. he hasn't been the same since that TDL

 

[Machinehead]

The additions of Zibanejad and ADA, as well as Howden, are what already makes this rebuild so different than even the 2004 rebuild. The best player the Rangers traded for in that attempt was Blair Betts. They also were only able to add one additional 1st round pick. The assets acquired in this rebuild have so much more value than what happened the last time around.

I mean, they did kind of trade for the guy 2nd all-time in points who single-handedly just ended the rebuild.

Different story, I know.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I mean, they did kind of trade for the guy 2nd all-time in points who single-handedly just ended the rebuild.

Different story, I know.

Yeah, but that was before they started selling off pieces.

 

[Machinehead]

Philosophical question: Was Jagr bad for the Rangers?

He had the best season in franchise history and ended the Dark Ages, but would the Rangers have been better off rebuilding and acquiring pieces that still would have been helping them from 2012-2015.

Then again, change the past and you change the future. Change the situation completely and the Rangers likely don't have Kreider, Stepan, McDonagh etc. Maybe we're nobodies from 2012-2015.

Something to think about.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Philosophical question: Was Jagr bad for the Rangers?

He had the best season in franchise history and ended the Dark Ages, but would the Rangers have been better off rebuilding and acquiring pieces that still would have been helping them from 2012-2015.

Then again, change the past and you change the future. Change the situation completely and the Rangers likely don't have Kreider, Stepan, McDonagh etc. Maybe we're nobodies from 2012-2015.

Something to think about.

I proposed the same question when Gretzky was here.

 

[Machinehead]

I proposed the same question when Gretzky was here.

It's harder for Jagr, because as I alluded to, we ended up doing pretty well with what we got.

In the late 90's, I definitely wouldn't have had any problem tearing that team down. We did nothing with our mid-2000's picks anyway.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Philosophical question: Was Jagr bad for the Rangers?

He had the best season in franchise history and ended the Dark Ages, but would the Rangers have been better off rebuilding and acquiring pieces that still would have been helping them from 2012-2015.

Then again, change the past and you change the future. Change the situation completely and the Rangers likely don't have Kreider, Stepan, McDonagh etc. Maybe we're nobodies from 2012-2015.

Something to think about.

Long story short, not riding out the stardom of Jagr and the rise of the King from 2006 - ~2010, is why we farted out in 2014/2015 with no cup.

RangersTown™ was too quick to spend money. Yes, I know when Bob Gainey went all nutty under pressure for the 100th Hab's anniversary, we netted a return or the Gomez trade, but that's really not the right way too look at it, since it still led to crapping out with a weak top 6, and McD getting sent to the Gulf.

I firmly believe that if the Rangers stayed the course for those few years, we would've had a cup.

 

[Ghost of jas]

It's harder for Jagr, because as I alluded to, we ended up doing pretty well with what we got.

In the late 90's, I definitely wouldn't have had any problem tearing that team down. We did nothing with our mid-2000's picks anyway.

True. In looking at the Jagr era, what should have been the 2004-5 is the one that should have been the bottoming out year for the Rangers. Henke wasn’t coming over yet, and Nylander and Straka were not yet signed. Who knows where Jagr’s head would have been on a bad Ranger team at that point. Of course, the prior draft didn’t add much to the roster aside from Dubinsky and Callahan. Who knows, maybe they end up with Kopitar instead of Staal, and move Jagr and Holik for more picks and prospects. The lost year changed the direction of this franchise.

 

[Machinehead]

Long story short, not riding out the stardom of Jagr and the rise of the King from 2006 - ~2010, is why we farted out in 2014/2015 with no cup.

RangersTown™ was too quick to spend money. Yes, I know when Bob Gainey went all nutty under pressure for the 100th Hab's anniversary, we netted a return or the Gomez trade, but that's really not the right way too look at it, since it still led to crapping out with a weak top 6, and McD getting sent to the Gulf.

I firmly believe that if the Rangers stayed the course for those few years, we would've had a cup.

So be more patient WITH Jagr. That's an interesting way to think about it.

 

[Off Sides]

I never saw Jagr as a problem, it was the idea that Gomez, Drury would be good signings in lieu of Nylander that sent that off the rails in my opinion.

 

[True Blue]

Shattenkirk is still a top 4 defenseman. I know you don't think so, but that's fine.

As always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me, he has looked as anything but a top 4.

And really, his contract isn't bad at all. He makes enough salary but there's very little term on it.

Again, depends on the view, but to me $6m for a third pairing/PP specialist de-man is too rich. Even if we go with your assessment and say that he is a #4 (although still needing sheltered minutes) $6m is still too rich for that.

 

[NCRanger]

Long story short, not riding out the stardom of Jagr and the rise of the King from 2006 - ~2010, is why we farted out in 2014/2015 with no cup.

RangersTown™ was too quick to spend money. Yes, I know when Bob Gainey went all nutty under pressure for the 100th Hab's anniversary, we netted a return or the Gomez trade, but that's really not the right way too look at it, since it still led to crapping out with a weak top 6, and McD getting sent to the Gulf.

I firmly believe that if the Rangers stayed the course for those few years, we would've had a cup.

The first season out of the lockout, the Rangers were much better than anyone anticipated, and really only had a bad three week stretch the entire season. It just so happened right at the end of the season, coinciding with the Devils getting ridiculously hot. That team was on pace for about 107 points, and should have wrapped up their division after beating Boston on a Saturday afternoon in early April. They only really needed 2 more points. I believe Jagr tweaked something and Hank never told anyone about his headaches.

Who knows what might have happened, but if Drury doesn't score with 7.7 seconds left in Game #5 of that second round series in 2006-07, the Rangers probably beat Buffalo, and get to the ECF, maybe even beat Ottawa and get to the Finals. That team was better than most thought.

I don't think Gomez is ever signed in that scenario. Drury, maybe.

Even without McD, that defensive core was coming along. I know the hate currently for Staal and Girardi, but they were pretty damn good before 2010. Sauer had the potential to be a long time Ranger on the blueline.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

So be more patient WITH Jagr. That's an interesting way to think about it.

Yeah. He was on fire for a bit, so MSG would have still had name power, but we wouldn't have flown too high or committed too much money for shit until the King became completely dominant by 2010. By drafting, trading, and smarter free agency + a splash in a run, I believe it would have played out better than it did.

 

[Machinehead]

As always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me, he has looked as anything but a top 4.

Again, depends on the view, but to me $6m for a third pairing/PP specialist de-man is too rich. Even if we go with your assessment and say that he is a #4 (although still needing sheltered minutes) $6m is still too rich for that.

I think you're underestimating how much salaries have risen in the past couple of years. Middle six players and middle pairing defensemen make $6M now.