Post-Game Talk: #23 | Islanders at Flyers | November 29, 2022 | 7:30 PM | Nothing Lasts Forever Even Cold November Losses

[VladDrag]

Vorobyev played worse than Bunnaman and Thompson, which is a low threshold.

I think his problem was simple, he wasn't good enough offensively to hold a top 9 spot, nor wanted to play a 4C role (allergic to contact on the forecheck), and he wasn't fundamentally good at defense. The KHL is a defense first league, to get PT, he had to improve his defense, once he did that, he worked his way up to top six minutes and gradually increased his production. This would not have happened in the NHL b/c no team would have patience with extended bad play from a mediocre prospect. He would have floated around the AHL for a few years.

This is why some players don't emerge until they play 3 or more years in the AHL, they don't have enough raw talent to out skate their mistakes, so they have to incrementally improve various parts of their game, fundamentals, skating, puck handling, etc. Guys like Dumoulin, Guorde, Verhaeghe, Marchessault, Stephenson, Oleksiak, etc.
And numerous players who played 3-4 years in college and a couple more in the AHL.

35 game sample with some of the worst NHL linemates ever.

 

[macleish1974]

Must be a Herman Kahn fanatic to believe that stats make a difference.

The only stat that is worth anything is either a win or a loss and accordingly so does the NHL. I think that is a valid assumption.

PS------ In high school, my best friend's father statistically modelled the best physical structure for the first atomic bomb at Los Alamos. I guess he was correct.........but I assume it was not the only factor for its "success"

 

[Curufinwe]

2. Power play looked much better last night. They actually were moving their feet. You don't have to be moving your feet all over the place either, just a bit of anticipation, trying to sneak into the back door, or move around a defender...We just saw that a bit more last night. I think they could be better with their deployment, and I think they are wasting Frost, and Farabee in their respective spots. I would love to see a unit of Hayes (net front), Farabee (bumper), Frost (right wall), Tippett (left wall), TDA (up top). You could also move Hayes to left or right wall, and Frost goes opposite of him, but then you need to find a net front. I wouldn't use Hayes as a net front guy in the conventional way, I would try to get him the puck below the goal line and make passes back up to Frost/Tippet/Farabee.

JVR should be back soon to play netfront.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Berube won a Cup, Hakstol has turned the Kraken around, hmm, maybe it wasn't the HCs?

Berube was a complete failure here, because he was thrown into the job before he was ready. He had minimal experience.

Hakstol had some win streaks in Philly too. Playing not to lose is more likely to pay off in the regular season.

I thought coaching didn't matter, anyway? That's what you always said nonstop for years straight.

 

[VladDrag]

JVR should be back soon to play netfront.

Agreed. Just saying right now. I would put Hayes on the half wall when JVR comes


Edit - I don't know why that has the <-BACK arrow, but I'm keeping it.

 

[deadhead]

35 game sample with some of the worst NHL linemates ever.

A slight exaggeration:

Raffl 99 minutes
Stewart 68 minutes
Pitlick 64 minutes
Simmonds 51 minutes
Varone 50 minutes
Farabee 48 minutes
Laughton 43 minutes
JVR 36 minutes
Voracek 27 minutes
Kase 23 minutes
TK 17 minutes
NAK 15 minutes

 

[landsbergfan]

Agreed. Just saying right now. I would put Hayes on the half wall when JVR comes

 

[Beef Invictus]

A slight exaggeration:

Raffl 99 minutes
Stewart 68 minutes
Pitlick 64 minutes
Simmonds 51 minutes
Varone 50 minutes
Farabee 48 minutes
Laughton 43 minutes
JVR 36 minutes
Voracek 27 minutes
Kase 23 minutes
TK 17 minutes
NAK 15 minutes

68 of 349 minutes with Stewart is a huge chunk of his minutes. He spent a fifth of his time trying to haul a guy who would struggle in the ECHL around.

 

[Shrike]

If you’re gonna maximize the number of 10 game losing streaks, you gotta break ‘em off quickly once you hit the double digit mark. Running ‘em up a bit only gets in the way of setting the record for most 10 game losing streaks.

 

[Curufinwe]

They could definitely have another one, or even two this season.

 

[Cody Webster]

35 game sample with some of the worst NHL linemates ever.

Keep in mind, the guy youre talking with said yesterday that Laczynski was being brought down by playing with Brown and whoever, but whenever Frost plays with those same linemates, it's Frost sucks and he can't do anything

 

[Crescent Street]

Keep in mind, the guy youre talking with said yesterday that Laczynski was being brought down by playing with Brown and whoever, but whenever Frost plays with those same linemates, it's Frost sucks and he can't do anything

Only a matter of time before you are unable to stay consistent in dishonest rhetoric.

 

[deadhead]

Keep in mind, the guy youre talking with said yesterday that Laczynski was being brought down by playing with Brown and whoever, but whenever Frost plays with those same linemates, it's Frost sucks and he can't do anything

But when Sedlak plays with the same guys . . .

 

[Beef Invictus]

But when Sedlak plays with the same guys . . .

A player still in his prime vs a player not yet in his?

These are all factors you've demonstrated awareness off. What's with the selective omission to suit your preferred narratives?

 

[Magua]

1. I am not sure why, but last night it at least through the first 2 periods, Torts and Co elected to chase a Frost vs Barzal matchup. He pulled a couple of lines quickly to get Frost-Tippett-Bellows out there to match. Half way thru the 2nd, they pulled Bellows off that line and put Deslauriers, and continued to attempt to match that line. It should be noted, that Frost-Tippett-Bellows did pretty well in defensive role against Barzal. They minimized shots from the outside. Barzal had a lot of chances, but that was he was against other lines.

Sometime in the 3rd, Torts went away from this matchup and the Frost-Tippett line showed up offensively. They looked completely different not playing against Barzal. Frost with an xGF% of 97% and Tippett with an xGF% of 67% when not on the ice with Barzal. It's a very small sample size admittedly, but it does show promise that these two guys are developing a good bit of chemistry together as a middle 6 tandem. Add a guy like Cates or Laughton to that line and you may have a strong 3rd line in a semi-normal roster.

I'm trying to understand their logic, and I'm sure it's more than "protection." Do they think he's a defensive presence to balance them out? We're cackling at that, but it might be the truth -- well, fantasy that they think is truth. Thankfully, Deslauriers is just a 4th liner and none of this matters. Breathe easily.

Frost and Tippett chain a NZ play, hits Deslauriers stick......dump in. Frost and Tippett cycle, Deslauriers gets puck in slot......shank. Frost positions himself for a DZ controlled exit, touch passes between legs to Deslauriers.......who is instantly closed on by the defender. What is the upside here to playing with THE least naturally skilled forward on your roster? It's so retrograde everyone should take their helmets off and play with wooden sticks and corsets, or whatever it is they used back in ye olden days.

 

[VladDrag]

I'm trying to understand their logic, and I'm sure it's more than "protection." Do they think he's a defensive presence to balance them out? We're cackling at that, but it might be the truth -- well, fantasy that they think is truth. Thankfully, Deslauriers is just a 4th liner and none of this matters. Breathe easily.

Frost and Tippett chain a NZ play, hits Deslauriers stick......dump in. Frost and Tippett cycle, Deslauriers gets puck in slot......shank. Frost positions himself for a DZ controlled exit, touch passes between legs to Deslauriers.......who is instantly closed on by the defender. What is the upside here to playing with THE least naturally skilled forward on your roster? It's so retrograde everyone should take their helmets off and play with wooden sticks and corsets, or whatever it is they used back in ye olden days.

I just how he sees the bench when the guys like TK, JvR, Allison and Atkinson come back….I have doubts

 

[Curufinwe]

I just how he sees the bench when the guys like TK, JvR, Allison and Atkinson come back….I have doubts

Theoretically they could all be back in a week or two.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

I'm trying to understand their logic, and I'm sure it's more than "protection." Do they think he's a defensive presence to balance them out? We're cackling at that, but it might be the truth -- well, fantasy that they think is truth. Thankfully, Deslauriers is just a 4th liner and none of this matters. Breathe easily.

Frost and Tippett chain a NZ play, hits Deslauriers stick......dump in. Frost and Tippett cycle, Deslauriers gets puck in slot......shank. Frost positions himself for a DZ controlled exit, touch passes between legs to Deslauriers.......who is instantly closed on by the defender. What is the upside here to playing with THE least naturally skilled forward on your roster? It's so retrograde everyone should take their helmets off and play with wooden sticks and corsets, or whatever it is they used back in ye olden days.

To the bolded, I'm not so sure it's more than that. Nic D is the Bouncer of this team. And by Bouncer, I mean the fat guys from that old Nintendo game that all the skinny guys bounced off of. Chuck and the Cronies would love to have a full roster of just those guys.

 

[deadhead]

Problem with all those skilled players is none are skilled at O-zone entries other than Hayes and Tippett.
So when you inevitably dump it in, who is going to go into the corner and retrieve the puck for your play makers?

There's no "answer," the Flyer skill people just aren't skilled enough to play a skill game, the ones that are (Couts, Atkinson, TK, JVR) are injured. Frost should be that guy, but so far has shown only occasional flashes. Someone like Tippett has shown better passing skills than advertised, still, his best role is as a complementary wing who can forecheck and shoot, and make a wide open pass.

Frost and Cates are both being put in over their heads, but there aren't a lot of alternatives at center, neither Hayes nor Laughton are really top 6 centers anymore, both are better at wing. Laczynski hasn't show enough to project him as more than a 4C right now, Sedlak is probably a 3C at best.

last 13 games:
Frost 11:38 CF 47.96%, xGF 48.02%, xGF/60: 2.13 GF/60: 1.64
Cates 12:21 CF 51.16%, xGF 50.83%, xGF/60: 2.33, GF/60: 2.67
Sedlak 10:20 CF 56.08%, xGF 65.29%, xGF/60: 3.01, GF/60: 2.33
If Sedlak starts playing tougher minutes, those numbers will probably go down.

Minutes:
Frost: Farabee (62), Tippett (62), Bellows (39), Deslauriers (34), Laczynski (30), MacEwen (23), Willman (21)
Cates: MacEwen (118), Sedlak (38), Laughton (34), Tippett (31), Hayes (27), Farabee (26)
Sedlak: Deslauriers (50), MacEwen (44), Cates (38), Farabee (27), Bellows (25), Hayes (23), Laczynski (20),

 

[Beef Invictus]

Allison, Frost, and TK have routinely shown they're able to enter the zone. I have no idea why these things have to keep being made up.

It is true though that Fletcher has completely stripped the team of transition ability because he is an idiot.

 

[deadhead]

Allison, Frost, and TK have routinely shown they're able to enter the zone. I have no idea why these things have to keep being made up.

It is true though that Fletcher has completely stripped the team of transition ability because he is an idiot.

Bull.

TK has always dumped and chased, because while he has great speed and acceleration, he lacks "shake and bake" so he struggles to deke defenders, Tippett is actually a more fluid skater with the puck. TK's signature move is to dump and then chase, and hope the defender trips or interferes, picking up a penalty.

Frost isn't great at O-zone entry because, while stronger, he's still too easy to bump off the puck. And what disappoints me, is while he's straight line fast, he's not a "shake and bake" guy either, lacks the elusiveness of the top smurfs.

Allison isn't great at zone entry, don't know where you get that, he's a fancier version of MacEwen with more skill, but the same power move and then recover the puck.

Hayes has the "butt move" down cold, lead with the butt, use your body to shield the puck, and he has good hands in traffic.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Bull.

TK has always dumped and chased, because while he has great speed and acceleration, he lacks "shake and bake" so he struggles to deke defenders, Tippett is actually a more fluid skater with the puck. TK's signature move is to dump and then chase, and hope the defender trips or interferes, picking up a penalty.

Frost isn't great at O-zone entry because, while stronger, he's still too easy to bump off the puck. And what disappoints me, is while he's straight line fast, he's not a "shake and bake" guy either, lacks the elusiveness of the top smurfs.

Allison isn't great at zone entry, don't know where you get that, he's a fancier version of MacEwen with more skill, but the same power move and then recover the puck.

Hayes has the "butt move" down cold, lead with the butt, use your body to shield the puck, and he has good hands in traffic.

TK just spent years playing for dump and chase coaches. Tortorella is another one of them. Get pucks deep, then grind.

He had zero issue gaining the zone with control under Hakstol and Knoblauch.

Tip: when you have to just make shit up to keep fluffing the mistakes from on high, you shouldn't be bothering. By the way, you can stop strawmanning. Find where I said "great." You proposed that none are skilled at zone entries. There are several who are. There's quite a leap from having the skill to being great at it, you know.

 

[deadhead]

If you're not great at it, then dump and chase will still be a staple, because one of the worst sins is to get stripped of the puck at the blue line, starting an odd man rush in the other direction as 2 or 3 forwards are headed the wrong way at the blue line (waiting for the puck to enter the O-zone). That's why practically every HC wants players to be sure they can cleanly enter or dump it deep.

The top guys have "shake and bake", they have the quickness and agility to deke most defenders and enter cleanly. These tend to be elite offensive players who are 1C and 2C guys. The other group of entry guys are big with good hands (Voracek, Hayes, Couts) who can use strength and their body to shield the puck and those good hands to protect from stick checks.

 

[Strawberry Fields]

Perhaps the Phils could use Nic's services more than us?

Please?

 

[Beef Invictus]

If you're not great at it, then dump and chase will still be a staple, because one of the worst sins is to get stripped of the puck at the blue line, starting an odd man rush in the other direction as 2 or 3 forwards are headed the wrong way at the blue line (waiting for the puck to enter the O-zone). That's why practically every HC wants players to be sure they can cleanly enter or dump it deep.

The top guys have "shake and bake", they have the quickness and agility to deke most defenders and enter cleanly. These tend to be elite offensive players who are 1C and 2C guys. The other group of entry guys are big with good hands (Voracek, Hayes, Couts) who can use strength and their body to shield the puck and those good hands to protect from stick checks.

If your coach thinks it's 2012 and is obsessed with avoiding "dangerous" plays, then dump and chase to grind it out on the boards will be a staple no matter what the skillset on the team is.