Post-Game Talk: #23 | Islanders at Flyers | November 29, 2022 | 7:30 PM | Nothing Lasts Forever Even Cold November Losses

[JojoTheWhale]

@JojoTheWhale

 

[flyersnorth]

Nice to see them win!

Hart looked in a lot of pain after he got Thoresen'd. Ouch.

I can't believe there were two staged fights within 8 seconds of the game starting. I was laughing because it's so absurd, on the one hand, but also unique among pro sports and awesomely absurd for that reason too.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Sedlak shows the value of marinating players (which is why I wonder if they welcome Vorobyev back next season), he's turned into a solid center, not top 6, but good enough to either anchor the 4th line or get a real asset at the TDL.

Sedlak has been a perfectly acceptable 4th liner since he came into the league in 16-17. He was 23 then. More specifically, ~6 months younger than Laczynski is now.

He's also an example of a guy who seems to have improved some of his offensive metrics at the cost of defense. He's rocking an oiSavePct% of ~94 at 5v5 with the Flyers, so expect some regression from a Goals Allowed standpoint. Still a positive down in your lineup, but we're probably seeing a role description change more than a growth.

If you do think it's growth on his part, my chief question would be how many more guys out there are being held back by rigid role construction? How many in your own org even?

 

[gertbfrobe16]

Lol @ Hart not being 1st star.

 

[VladDrag]

Sedlak has been a perfectly acceptable 4th liner since he came into the league in 16-17. He was 23 then. More specifically, ~6 months younger than Laczynski is now.

He's also an example of a guy who seems to have improved some of his offensive metrics at the cost of defense. He's rocking an oiSavePct% of ~94 at 5v5 with the Flyers, so expect some regression from a Goals Allowed standpoint. Still a positive down in your lineup, but we're probably a role description change more than a growth.

If you do think it's growth on his part, my chief question would be how many more guys out there are being held back by rigid role construction? How many in your own org even?

If you agree with Evolving Hockey's xGAR defensive model or their RAPM xGA model, Laczynski has been the best defensive forward on the team, and has been basically since the start of the season. He's the best forward on the team in terms of xGAR (Brown is techincally first, but he's not played a whole lot), solely based on his defensive ability, because his offensive so far to date is non-existent. Now, is that role, or is that getting used to time and space of the NHL...probably a bit of both.

 

[kudymen]

First they beat Rochester and now this? Wow

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Funny as hell that Sedlak is 29. If he was 21 I'd maybe be optimistic.

 

[ybnvs]

Ugh.

Here's an excerpt from ESPN's recap of the game last night (I don't know why I read the recap, usually I never do):

"Tortorella has been preaching effort, energy and hard work — and Philadelphia came out in this one looking like the Broad Street Bullies of the Flyers’ glory days when they won their only Stanley Cups in 1974 and ’75."

No, they did not at all look like the Broad Street Bullies last night. Just because there were two predetermined staged fights in the first 8 seconds doesn't mean it resembled the BSB days, at all. Why does everything Flyers related have to revolve around the BSB days?

It is never going to stop. This lunacy will never go away. We fans will never escape it nor will the players who don the Orange and Black.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

LOLLLLLLLL.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If you agree with Evolving Hockey's xGAR defensive model or their RAPM xGA model, Laczynski has been the best defensive forward on the team, and has been basically since the start of the season. He's the best forward on the team in terms of xGAR (Brown is techincally first, but he's not played a whole lot), solely based on his defensive ability, because his offensive so far to date is non-existent. Now, is that role, or is that getting used to time and space of the NHL...probably a bit of both.

Shame the team hates young players or maybe they would have rewarded him for being good at the only thing they care about. Unfortunately he doesn't fit that geezer stereotype of what a bottom sixer should be, so he can go right to hell.

 

[Beef Invictus]

LOLLLLLLLL.

Really debunks the idea that fighting matters. The Islanders fought and lost.

Maybe they shouldn't have made their roster worse to do an irrelevant thing.

 

[swami24]

Why does everything Flyers related have to revolve around the BSB days?

Why does the national media still rerun the inaccurate, but accepted, 50+ yr old story of Eagles fans and Santa Claus? It is easier to retread old anecdotes than actually research and use new info for a story

 

[Fight4yourRight]

This is the clown show we have been left with. This.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

LOLLLLLLLL.

It's so lame.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

This is the clown show we have been left with. This.

View attachment 615003

Nice of them to have Lindblom's number on the bat...

Yes, I know it says 22-23.

 

[deadhead]

Flyers outplayed Isles both games, the first game, they made the mistakes and the Isle took advantage of them, this game they made fewer mistakes and Hart made the stops Sandstrom didn't.

This is not a good team, it's a work in progress, but there are real signs of progress, especially given the talent they've had to play due to injury.
last 13 games: CF 50.12%, xGF 49.63%, HDCF 51.60%
now the STs still suck, but you got to walk before you run.

As far as Sedlak, I think he just shows the value of "minor league" hockey for some players, especially D-specialists who need time to sharpen their offensive toolkit, 3 years of KHL play in a much bigger role gave him a lot of offensive reps. He's still a limited player, but one who can contribute on offense now. We're seeing that with Vorobyev, who seems to have made a similar improvement after 3 years in the KHL. Good reason to be patient with Wisdom and even Ratcliffe.

Laczynski is a bottom six player, playing good defense is a good way of getting PT, but to get more minutes he'll have to show more offense - but he has more in his toolkit than say Bunnaman did. If things get crowded as veterans return, it wouldn't hurt him to return to the AHL and play in the top six there, he missed a lot of time the last two seasons (only played 48 games).

 

[ybnvs]

Let us not forget the massively braindead penalty Ristof***tard committed on the PK to put them down two men which lead to the opening goal for the Islanders. Ooooh, so tough! What a goon.

Why wasn't he held accountable for that braindead play? He didn't lose any ice time or a single shift. Even though it's exceedingly detrimental overall for the Flyers, I really hope he never scores a single point this season.

Ristof***tard's 20:22 vs Zamula's 13:54, which ties Seeler's 13:54. Gross.

After Torts goes out of his way to show tons of praise to Zamula, it's not ironic in the least to see the hypocrisy in his words and actions as soon as the puck drops. Yesterday there were people on here literally predicting this exact scenario happening, again.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Meanwhile I chuckle as each game goes by and they gradually start collapsing around the net on defense, yielding ample space for an offensive-minded team to work, praying Hart holds strong, while on offense they prefer to be routed to the boards to grind away. It's the 2010 Rangers being resurrected with a worse roster. All we've learned is that this obsolete and fossilized playstyle is apparently only competitive against a team built by another obsolete fossil. Oh boy.

 

[VladDrag]

A couple of notes, because I am bored and procrastinating at work:

1. I am not sure why, but last night it at least through the first 2 periods, Torts and Co elected to chase a Frost vs Barzal matchup. He pulled a couple of lines quickly to get Frost-Tippett-Bellows out there to match. Half way thru the 2nd, they pulled Bellows off that line and put Deslauriers, and continued to attempt to match that line. It should be noted, that Frost-Tippett-Bellows did pretty well in defensive role against Barzal. They minimized shots from the outside. Barzal had a lot of chances, but that was he was against other lines.

Sometime in the 3rd, Torts went away from this matchup and the Frost-Tippett line showed up offensively. They looked completely different not playing against Barzal. Frost with an xGF% of 97% and Tippett with an xGF% of 67% when not on the ice with Barzal. It's a very small sample size admittedly, but it does show promise that these two guys are developing a good bit of chemistry together as a middle 6 tandem. Add a guy like Cates or Laughton to that line and you may have a strong 3rd line in a semi-normal roster.

2. Power play looked much better last night. They actually were moving their feet. You don't have to be moving your feet all over the place either, just a bit of anticipation, trying to sneak into the back door, or move around a defender...We just saw that a bit more last night. I think they could be better with their deployment, and I think they are wasting Frost, and Farabee in their respective spots. I would love to see a unit of Hayes (net front), Farabee (bumper), Frost (right wall), Tippett (left wall), TDA (up top). You could also move Hayes to left or right wall, and Frost goes opposite of him, but then you need to find a net front. I wouldn't use Hayes as a net front guy in the conventional way, I would try to get him the puck below the goal line and make passes back up to Frost/Tippet/Farabee.

3. I'm not sure if this game was really dominated by the Flyers, or if the Islanders did not show up to play this game. It was almost as if the Islanders didn't have a lot of juice, almost going thru the motions. That's not to say the Flyers didn't play a decently structured game, they did, but it's not like the Islanders, other than Barzal, did anything to pressure the team.

I worry that the Flyers may end up winning a few more games, especially once they get their team back. I say worry because it's not going to move the needle in any real positive way by winning an extra 5-6 games, in actuality it's more likely to hurt them. If TK and JvR return and play well offensively, or at least like normal, the team is going to score more goals. Ditto Atkinson, but I don't know what he's going to look like this year. You also have guys vastly underperforming relative to their historical offensive production. It would be fine if this was a development year, which it may be, but lets see what the lineup and deployment when players return before calling it that. Even if it is, the biggest issue with this team is that they don't have any elite talent coming through the ranks. That's why it's so important to bottom out this year, and the next few years, and get a few high draft picks, and chances to rectify that issue.

 

[Crescent Street]

Hakstol and the Kraken just won their 6th straight and won 9-8 on the road in LA last night. Hakstol.

 

[Beef Invictus]

A couple of notes, because I am bored and procrastinating at work:

1. I am not sure why, but last night it at least through the first 2 periods, Torts and Co elected to chase a Frost vs Barzal matchup. He pulled a couple of lines quickly to get Frost-Tippett-Bellows out there to match. Half way thru the 2nd, they pulled Bellows off that line and put Deslauriers, and continued to attempt to match that line. It should be noted, that Frost-Tippett-Bellows did pretty well in defensive role against Barzal. They minimized shots from the outside. Barzal had a lot of chances, but that was he was against other lines.

Sometime in the 3rd, Torts went away from this matchup and the Frost-Tippett line showed up offensively. They looked completely different not playing against Barzal. Frost with an xGF% of 97% and Tippett with an xGF% of 67% when not on the ice with Barzal. It's a very small sample size admittedly, but it does show promise that these two guys are developing a good bit of chemistry together as a middle 6 tandem. Add a guy like Cates or Laughton to that line and you may have a strong 3rd line in a semi-normal roster.

2. Power play looked much better last night. They actually were moving their feet. You don't have to be moving your feet all over the place either, just a bit of anticipation, trying to sneak into the back door, or move around a defender...We just saw that a bit more last night. I think they could be better with their deployment, and I think they are wasting Frost, and Farabee in their respective spots. I would love to see a unit of Hayes (net front), Farabee (bumper), Frost (right wall), Tippett (left wall), TDA (up top). You could also move Hayes to left or right wall, and Frost goes opposite of him, but then you need to find a net front. I wouldn't use Hayes as a net front guy in the conventional way, I would try to get him the puck below the goal line and make passes back up to Frost/Tippet/Farabee.

3. I'm not sure if this game was really dominated by the Flyers, or if the Islanders did not show up to play this game. It was almost as if the Islanders didn't have a lot of juice, almost going thru the motions. That's not to say the Flyers didn't play a decently structured game, they did, but it's not like the Islanders, other than Barzal, did anything to pressure the team.

I worry that the Flyers may end up winning a few more games, especially once they get their team back. I say worry because it's not going to move the needle in any real positive way by winning an extra 5-6 games, in actuality it's more likely to hurt them. If TK and JvR return and play well offensively, or at least like normal, the team is going to score more goals. Ditto Atkinson, but I don't know what he's going to look like this year. You also have guys vastly underperforming relative to their historical offensive production. It would be fine if this was a development year, which it may be, but lets see what the lineup and deployment when players return before calling it that. Even if it is, the biggest issue with this team is that they don't have any elite talent coming through the ranks. That's why it's so important to bottom out this year, and the next few years, and get a few high draft picks, and chances to rectify that issue.

My toilet seat could do that

 

[VladDrag]

Flyers outplayed Isles both games, the first game, they made the mistakes and the Isle took advantage of them, this game they made fewer mistakes and Hart made the stops Sandstrom didn't.

This is not a good team, it's a work in progress, but there are real signs of progress, especially given the talent they've had to play due to injury.
last 13 games: CF 50.12%, xGF 49.63%, HDCF 51.60%
now the STs still suck, but you got to walk before you run.

As far as Sedlak, I think he just shows the value of "minor league" hockey for some players, especially D-specialists who need time to sharpen their offensive toolkit, 3 years of KHL play in a much bigger role gave him a lot of offensive reps. He's still a limited player, but one who can contribute on offense now. We're seeing that with Vorobyev, who seems to have made a similar improvement after 3 years in the KHL. Good reason to be patient with Wisdom and even Ratcliffe.

Laczynski is a bottom six player, playing good defense is a good way of getting PT, but to get more minutes he'll have to show more offense - but he has more in his toolkit than say Bunnaman did. If things get crowded as veterans return, it wouldn't hurt him to return to the AHL and play in the top six there, he missed a lot of time the last two seasons (only played 48 games).

Even a month ago, you said things like Vorobyev is not playing well in the KHL, and even before that you have said things suck has Vorobyev sucks and showed nothing during his tenure in the NHL... Well, he played 35 games over two season in the NHL with the worst linemates on the team. That whole time you were saying he sucked. This should be a lesson for you right now with Frost. It's very hard for the non-elite players to succeed when they are not put in a position to be showcase their talents. First and foremost, when a player moves up to a new league, you want to see the same strengths they showed in the lower leagues. With Vorobyev for example, he was always a plus passer...well he's not going to be able to show you that with Chris Stewart as his winger. Same thing with Frost and ND as his winger.

By the way, guys like @Stizzle were saying what Vorobyev could turn into - a decent middle 6 center that can provide secondary offense, which is kind of what he's turned into right now in the KHL. This isn't revisionist history the way you are claiming it is. This was said back then.

 

[deadhead]

Berube won a Cup, Hakstol has turned the Kraken around, hmm, maybe it wasn't the HCs?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[deadhead]

Even a month ago, you said things like Vorobyev is not playing well in the KHL, and even before that you have said things suck has Vorobyev sucks and showed nothing during his tenure in the NHL... Well, he played 35 games over two season in the NHL with the worst linemates on the team. That whole time you were saying he sucked. This should be a lesson for you right now with Frost. It's very hard for the non-elite players to succeed when they are not put in a position to be showcase their talents. First and foremost, when a player moves up to a new league, you want to see the same strengths they showed in the lower leagues. With Vorobyev for example, he was always a plus passer...well he's not going to be able to show you that with Chris Stewart as his winger. Same thing with Frost and ND as his winger.

By the way, guys like @Stizzle were saying what Vorobyev could turn into - a decent middle 6 center that can provide secondary offense, which is kind of what he's turned into right now in the KHL. This isn't revisionist history the way you are claiming it is. This was said back then.

Vorobyev played worse than Bunnaman and Thompson, which is a low threshold.

I think his problem was simple, he wasn't good enough offensively to hold a top 9 spot, nor wanted to play a 4C role (allergic to contact on the forecheck), and he wasn't fundamentally good at defense. The KHL is a defense first league, to get PT, he had to improve his defense, once he did that, he worked his way up to top six minutes and gradually increased his production. This would not have happened in the NHL b/c no team would have patience with extended bad play from a mediocre prospect. He would have floated around the AHL for a few years.

This is why some players don't emerge until they play 3 or more years in the AHL, they don't have enough raw talent to out skate their mistakes, so they have to incrementally improve various parts of their game, fundamentals, skating, puck handling, etc. Guys like Dumoulin, Guorde, Verhaeghe, Marchessault, Stephenson, Oleksiak, etc.
And numerous players who played 3-4 years in college and a couple more in the AHL.