regulate
Registered User
Why do you believe that he won't come over for 4 or 5 more years? Why wouldn't he come over at 20 years old in 2 more years to join the organization after his contract runs out in the SHL?
Prospect Info: 22nd Overall Tobias Bjornfot, Defence
- Thread starter LastWordArmy
- Start date
Why do you believe that he won't come over for 4 or 5 more years? Why wouldn't he come over at 20 years old in 2 more years to join the organization after his contract runs out in the SHL?
Choralone
Registered User
IMO, a number of the posters (but not all) who were highly critical of Bjornfort's selection used a lot of hyperbole in describing how terrible it was and used it as both a bellwether of the King's drafting philosophy under Blake, and to rationalize their pre-existing hatred of Blake. It was kind of annoying, especially after the number 5 pick was such a home run.
In my rage I completely blew his age lol... Yes, he'd be here competing for a spot by 21 YO
Frolov 6'3
Unregistered User
Huh ? When have I done that ?
I already said we had to rely on stats because we all have barely have seen anything of him. Said this a few posts ago. Very strange comment. Read back
Your conclusion is just wrong, 11G 11A as defenseman are good numbers. A forward like Holmstrom who was picked right after Bearfoot didnt even hit 10 goals. A forward that is. I already pointed out other players and their numbers.
Its good you are done with me because it seems like your annoyed very quickly. Sad conclusion for two longtime posters to read stuff like that.
Last edited:
Raccoon Jesus
Todd McLellan is an inside agent
I'll still defend my thought process even though I've come around on it.
At the time, I said it was a redundant pick given the number of "vanilla 6 foot 200 lb LHD" we have and have had in the system, the one position we were stocked from top to bottom on (relatively, obviously). After all the bluster about going for it and developing offense and swinging for the fences, we made a no-brainer good safe pick in Turcotte (no complaints) and followed that up--keeping in mind we needed scoring--with the guy whose scouting report read like Derek Forbort's. It looked like all they were saying about the draft and internal philosophy was going out the window in favor of safe, 'character' picks, which is exactly what everyone was criticizing DL for and now Blake inherited that, especially given the scorers on the board.
I feel like it's fine for a whole lot of people to disagree with that, but not mock it, it's a totally fair train of thought.
Now like I said I've softened on that a lot seeing the rest of the draft play out and alls well that ends well but at the time it was a totally fair criticism.
A large number of posters listing crap like "are you guys done crying yet" for a simple disagreement in philosophy that was totally reasonable blew everything completely out of proportion and was a bunch of equally, ironic, overreactionary road apples.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
- At the time of the pick, being upset was definitely warranted and only the fact that they still got Kaliyev at 33 has made the initial feelings on the pick either soften or completely disappear. Kudos to Blake and Co. for playing it correctly but there was no guaranty it was going to work out the way it did from picks 23-32 and they had to sweat it out. Blake hasn't done a god damn thing at this point to get the benefit of the doubt in the moment.
-Turcotte fell to them and they picked him. They would have taken whichever one of Dach or Byram was available if Turcotte was gone. Blake is supposed to get some sort of pass for simply going chalk at 5OA?
I dislike Blake but I love the Muzzin trade and am glad that he seems to realize what this franchise needs moving forward after being totally clueless for his first two years. Him and his inherited team appear to have crushed this draft with playing Kaliyev correctly and also for the trade-up to get Fagemo. Bravo. He does this a couple of more times and I'll say "trust the process" but there is no way any of us should have had faith in him that there was a viable plan in play when making the Bjornfot pick outside of "I want a defenseman so I will not take the BPA".
There is absolutely nothing Vanilla about a kid who when he comes over will be competing for a Dman spot in the NHL rather than the AHL. There was also nothing in the scouting report that projects Bjornfot to being a project as Forbort was, they're completely different players and one has already played against men and excelled.
We also aren't stacked on the left end with brimming defensive talent RJ, Mikey Anderson is a really, really good prospect who will likely make the club within the year, Clague for as gifted as he is still needs much more work, Phillips is solid and then were done.. It was the right pick for the what the organization needed and was within value of the 22nd pick. We could argue about scoring and Kaliyev, Tomasino, Robertson and a few more all we want but this kid was projected to be a top 10 pick but "failed" to improve his offensive stats and so he dropped ala Rasmus Kupari. He improved his overall play two notches and while he duplicated his offensive output, he almost doubled his goals from 6 to 11..
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
He is absolutely vanilla at the moment. His highlight reel consists of "Shot/Board Battle/Dump In/Blocked Shot/Skate".
I'm not arguing that he can't be a good NHL player, but his ceiling appears to be limited v. that of certain players still available, such as the guy they got at #33. That being said, he appears to have a high floor.
For the fans of a team that saw a "safe" pick in Forbort over a "risk" in Tarasenko all those years ago, it is completely understandable to hate the pick in the moment and only be okay with it after watching the rest of the draft play out. For a team that was practically devoid of elite prospect talent--that doesn't have a broken back--heading into the draft, it is perfectly sane to question why Blake decided to choke up for a single instead of swinging for the fences.
It all worked out and, really, nobody would care if the draft pick numbers next to Bjornfot/Kaliyev's names were switched. Blake pulled it off though along with Fagemo who appears to have all the makings of a pain-in-the-ass 3rd liner. It's all too early at this point, but it feels like they drafted 4 NHL players with their first four picks. That's rad; however, I don't think Bjornfot is going to add much offense at the NHL level. I also won't particularly care as long as he is a rock defensively.
Choralone
Registered User
I preferred we played it safe with 1st round picks and not go boom or bust, considering how many holes we have to fill - and therefore how many have to pan out - and how uncertain Villardi's future is. I was never on board with Caufield, for instance.
Our defensive pipeline is filled with "meh" prospects, and we didn't draft one defenseman last year. Bjornfot has more promise arguably than all of our current prospects right off the bat, and he has an offensive game. He fits the definition of a blue-chip prospect, albeit not gilt-edged.
Well, yeah? He shouldn't be pilloried for it. After one amazing, albeit brainless pick, then the Bjornfot pick, it seemed like a lot of people were waiting to pounce with a take of "See? Blake is an idiot. I told you so."
Well, Bjornfot was taken where he was expected, so in that sense you could argue he was the BPA. It's just weird to me to have this completely negative take on Blake until he proves it to us with two more drafts. Are you requiring him to knock it out of the park again (as most pundit's consensus was on this year's results) for both drafts or can he just have some ok drafts?
Edit: fixed my botched bbs for the quotes. Whoops.
Last edited:
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
Well, Bjornfot was taken where he was expected, so in that sense you could argue he was the BPA. It's just weird to me to have this completely negative take on Blake until he proves it to us with two more drafts. Are you requiring him to knock it out of the park again (as most pundit's consensus was on this year's results) for both drafts or can he just have some ok drafts?[/QUOTE]
I don't believe the majority of outlets had him as the BPA at that point. It was a draft for need, as you pointed out when saying they didn't draft a defenseman in '18. Many people simply believe in BPA and didn't feel that he was the BPA.
I don't think anyone was dragging Blake for the no-brainer pick of Turcotte but they were dragging him for Bjornfot and those people had their reasons. I'm just saying that if you didn't like the Bjornfot pick, it is dumb to hedge it with "But he's a genius for Turcotte".
I don't have a completely negative take on Blake as I've pretty much liked everything since the Muzzin trade. I've been on record on not giving him much credit for keeping draft picks since that was an automatic move. I don't have any tangible results from his drafts yet so I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt as he doesn't deserve it. He's done good things the last six months so I am cautiously optimistic.
He definitely has some goodwill rolling with me at the moment. Muzzin trade, this draft and deciding to play the kids are all right up my alley. I'm giving him credit for that but he's been a disaster until the Muzzin trade so, when he does something questionable with the 22nd pick in the 2019 draft, it is fair to start dragging him. In my defense, I simply posted after the pick that he didn't go BPA and didn't flip out. I totally understand those that did and think the after-the-fact "told you so's" were extremely lame.
cyclones22
Registered User
If you all read the Yannetti interview and watched the draft day videos, you can see that the Kings draft team assigned a value not to draft slot #22 specifically, but the range of 22 to 33. They had some sort of formula of how players and positions were valued in that range and their calculus said draft the defenseman now, draft the forward later and likely get full value or risk being undervalued in total for both picks combined. It was about drafting the two best players they possibly could in that 11 player range, not the BPA at 22, which folks get hung up on. FYI, it's similar to how they determined when to pull the trigger on the Muzzin trade. Once the value of the pieces involved reached a certain threshold (there were numerous historical trades that were used as a guideline), it meant finalize the trade now and don't risk the wait for better offers which may never come (or Muzzin gets hurt).
We're all prisoners of the moment. When #22 rolls around, who's highest rated? Grab him! But as we all saw, defenders were more highly rated by the drafting teams than they were by ranking services. The Kings were drafting at #22 like they knew they had #33 in their back pocket. It's playing the long game. So when #33 comes along and Kaliyev is selected, is it because they were lucky or because they were skilled in executing their plan? I mean, both elements exist and play a part, but there's an entire thought process and calculation that goes into it. It's like watching the WSOP and when Phil Ivey or someone of that ilk wins a huge pot by a bluff/draw. There's a ton of thought and analysis that goes into that hand to determine what he has vs his opponents and what scenarios exist that he could get beat. When he wins the pot, you'll have people say he got lucky his bluff wasn't called and those who will say that it was skill in reading the situation and his opponents. Does it really matter since he won the pot? The Kings took a calculated risk and got full value + for their pair of picks at #22 and #33. I was fine with the #22 selection in real time and I was ecstatic with #33 when it happened as well.
We're all prisoners of the moment. When #22 rolls around, who's highest rated? Grab him! But as we all saw, defenders were more highly rated by the drafting teams than they were by ranking services. The Kings were drafting at #22 like they knew they had #33 in their back pocket. It's playing the long game. So when #33 comes along and Kaliyev is selected, is it because they were lucky or because they were skilled in executing their plan? I mean, both elements exist and play a part, but there's an entire thought process and calculation that goes into it. It's like watching the WSOP and when Phil Ivey or someone of that ilk wins a huge pot by a bluff/draw. There's a ton of thought and analysis that goes into that hand to determine what he has vs his opponents and what scenarios exist that he could get beat. When he wins the pot, you'll have people say he got lucky his bluff wasn't called and those who will say that it was skill in reading the situation and his opponents. Does it really matter since he won the pot? The Kings took a calculated risk and got full value + for their pair of picks at #22 and #33. I was fine with the #22 selection in real time and I was ecstatic with #33 when it happened as well.
TruKingFan
Two-Time Cup Winner
Raccoon Jesus
Todd McLellan is an inside agent
Relatively yes, yes we are. I guess I'd better write it out since no one seems to believe it.
Here was our organizational depth at every position before this draft, bear with me, obv won't be perfect with flexible forwards:
| Center | Right Wing | Left Wing | Goalie | Right D | Left D |
| Vilardi | Dergachyov | Wagner | Petersen | Roy | Brickley |
| JAD | Luff | Imama | Villalta | Strand | MacDermid |
| Porkins | Rempal | Shafigullin | Kehler | Durzi | Clague |
| Kupari | Grundstrom | Eyssimont | Hrenak | Moverare | |
| Thomas | Sodergran | Ingham | Anderson | ||
| Dudas | Reddekopp | ||||
| Lizotte | Phillips | ||||
| Morrisson | Hults | ||||
| Rymsha |
LW: left off Kovalchuk, Iafallo, Clifford
RW: Lewis, Brown, Toffoli, Brodz
G: Quick, Campbell
LD: Doughty, Forbort, Martinez
RD: Walker, LaDue
Look at that winger depth especially. That's why I was mad--with scoring forwards on the board--that we added to that column of boring-ass LHD. ESPECIALLY when a good amount of those LHD are already in Ontario or pro-ready at least, and many of those wingers haven't even showed an interest of coming to America.I was being overly generous--I think its realistic to say our RW prospect depth was Grundstrom, Luff, Rempal and LW was Wagner and Eyssimont. So adding an LHD to EIGHT MORE LHD was problematic to me, Edit: make that NINE as we still had Lintuniemi at the time of the draft if memory serves correctly.
Again alls well that ends well but I think that's a pretty good illustration of why some of us were perturbed that doesn't have to do with "lol Blake" or something petty. I stick up for him a lot, so if anyone is going to write off an opinion as "oh that guy just was waiting for Blake to do something wrong", it can't be mine.
Last edited:
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
Cyclones-
Yeah...they pulled it off and it was awesome. Full credit to them for playing it the way they did and being right. Makes sense to not believe these guys were in the midst of pulling a coup, however, when this is the same scouting staff that has provided some real stinky drafts this decade.
I feel that nobody really has a problem in hindsight and nobody felt/feels that Bjornfot is a piece of trash prospect, even when he was selected. I think a lot of it also has to do with what most thought as the BPA being a certain type of prospect that the Kings haven't drafted in ages while Bjornfot appears to fit right in to previous picks.
Yeah...they pulled it off and it was awesome. Full credit to them for playing it the way they did and being right. Makes sense to not believe these guys were in the midst of pulling a coup, however, when this is the same scouting staff that has provided some real stinky drafts this decade.
I feel that nobody really has a problem in hindsight and nobody felt/feels that Bjornfot is a piece of trash prospect, even when he was selected. I think a lot of it also has to do with what most thought as the BPA being a certain type of prospect that the Kings haven't drafted in ages while Bjornfot appears to fit right in to previous picks.
I don't think Bjornfot was drafted for need, I think it was a direct consequence of a whole slew of defense being taken unexpectedly early. If he and Kaliyev were the two guys they wanted, it turns out they did the correct moves. If they take Kaliyev with 22, maybe it starts a run on forwards and maybe not. We'll never know.
I am glad they didn't grab Foote or Beecher, which would have been the King's MO in the past.
I am glad they didn't grab Foote or Beecher, which would have been the King's MO in the past.
Other than Doughty who else on our team does those things??
Also, everyone keeps saying safe/risk.. but who are you talking about?? Kaliyev? we got him... Brink? we could have drafted him...
Some of you are unrealistic when it comes to defenseman point production, No he will not be a Karlsson or Hedman but he will rack up a fair amount of points because he can actually do the one thing none of our Dman can.... That's get the puck through traffic and to the front of the net. Go back and rewatch 5 games and you'll see how we had guys in prime spots to score or deflect shot had they not gone everywhere but on net..
Vanilla=Mitchell, Greene, Regher, Scuderi all winners.He's more Voynov than Forbort.
and can we please stop with the whole they should have drafted Tarasenko bit, we all knew that the moment the pick was in... This situation was nowhere near that, they also went with whom they thought was BPA and thats really all you can ask.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
TruKingFan
Two-Time Cup Winner
Fact is whether people like it or not, Blake & co were more willing to lose Kaliyev at #33 than Bjornfot. They figured there were more suitable forwards than dmen at #33 with the way the draft was unfolding in real time. Kudos to Blake and co. for betting right. And of course the predictable anti-Blake crowd started to make noise when Bjornfot was picked at #22. Until 11 picks later. LOL.
Those guys i highlighted can all play LW and on that LD side we have Tier 1 Anderson, Tier 2 Clague and Tier 3 Phillips.. everyone else is not comparable. Bjornfot is on that Tier 1, potential top 4 with Mikey.. and thats all we have going for us unless Brickley takes a huge step forward..
So no, we are nowhere near being stacked.. and again, taking the BPA (Bjornfot) was the right call
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
A few of the left-handed dmen can also play the right side, like Clague. Bjornfot also seems to take the right side of the ice as well.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
Bolded Point #1 - Martinez, Forbort...all of them? Which defensive prospects do it? A good amount as well. I'm not talking "shot for a goal" or "what a board battling animal!", I'm talking "here he is with a shot on goal" and "here he is digging a puck out and making a safe play". Again, I'm not saying he is garbage and if what he becomes is a solid 4/5 on his own merit or a guy that can hang with a great #1 or 2 because he can skate and plays smart, then cool. I especially feel that way if Kaliyev is a home run.
Bolded point #2 - Yeah, that's why everyone is cool with the Bjornfot pick now. If they wind up taking a lesser forward at #33, nobody is praising the move. A giant reason they are receiving rave reviews for the draft is for getting Kaliyev. If they left the 1st round with him and Turcotte and someone else at 33, they would still be getting rave reviews. As a matter of fact, several ones mention that Bjornfot might have been early. I'm not an expert and the "experts" are wrong a lot of the time so I'm not going to hang my hat on any of that commentary but, point is, most don't feel he was the BPA. Look at RJ's depth chart and the amount of LHD on it v. the winger positions. IN THE MOMENT, it was perfectly fine to question it. Blake and Co. came out of it looking like geniuses however: that is fantastic. I hope he keeps looking like one even if I personally don't like the guy. Hell, I didn't even drag him over making the pick: I'm just saying I understand why people were really upset. Blake is nowhere above criticism at this point.
Bolded Point #3 - You've got one 1st round pick out of those named. Mitchell was drafted in a round that no longer exists. Scuderi was a 5th round pick. Both didn't make an impact until their mid-20s. Also, Regher and Greene are not vanilla. Those guys were animals and crushed people out there. That is exciting. That's a god damn Butterfinger Blizzard.
Bolded Point #4 - I'm not bemoaning the Tarasenko debacle, I'm merely giving context to why people would be upset about the Bjornfot pick in the moment.
My entire thing has been about context regarding initial reaction to the pick. I'm not saying the kid sucks: not even close. I am going to agree with the pro scouts though since I'm not an expert and they feel that his offensive upside is limited: I think anyone on here arguing otherwise is doing so primarily on hope. Hell, I hope he has another gear offensively as well.
- May 9, 2014
- 4,971
- 6,777
Agreed. The thing with his injuries which people maybe forget is that they were firstly at a bad time in his development and then also at a time that allowed others to pass him in the depth chart. I have the notion that the injuries cost him a little bit of jump, but I may be remembering that incorrectly. It all meant that not only did his development get stalled but that he was spinning his wheels in the AHL for too long before the questionable decisions you mention above. Losing him before even giving him a chance in the NHL was negligent at best.
Had the injuries not occurred he may well have ended up a solid middle pairing D-Man, but we will never know. Hickey was without doubt picked far too early in his draft but probably should have still been a first rounder. Bjornfot though looks to me to be a better player than Hickey was at this stage of his development.
The way the draft played out looked very controlled and well thought out. The Yannetti interview I’ve seen explaining the rational they used, highlighted how BPA (which is a mantra I believe in) is sometimes an over simplification and shows they nailed the weekends work by ending up with both what they wanted and needed.
Edit: This shows why BPA over simplifies things when looking at the big picture: Affecting culture through the draft; weighing forwards, defensemen at 22, 33; more from Yannetti - LA Kings Insider
I thought it was a good read, and shows who we ended up with was down to much more than luck.
Last edited:
SettlementRichie10
Registered User
- May 6, 2012
- 9,977
- 7,674
I’m annoyed and done with this conversation (not you as a poster) because it feels as if we’re just both talking past each other at this point.
All I’ve ever done here is echo exactly what his scouting reports read: he needs to improve his offensive game. That appears to be a correct report considering his lack of offensive development from 17/18 to 18/19, as well as his generally passive style of play.
If you want to go ahead and say no, the scouting reports are wrong, his offensive game is quite good, then that’s fine. We can shake hands and agree to disagree.
Choralone
Registered User
Yeah, I didn't have you in mind when I wrote that. I didn't even have BigKing in mind either, even though he was the one I was replying to. (I don't remember if he hates Blake - I don't keep track of who does, actually.)
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
BOOOOOO!
I don't like Blake; however, I want him to be the best GM in Kings history since I do not actively root against the sustained success of my favorite sports team.
I think I've been fair to him. I told everyone to hold off on the coronation during 2018 since he hadn't done anything, properly chided him for the decisions last off-season and properly lauded him for pretty much everything since the Muzzin deal.
I hope I get to keep being pleased with what he's doing. If some of these 2017 and '18 draft picks start to show legit promise at the NHL level at various points this season, then I will join in with giving him credit for good drafting as opposed to the current credit being given to him for simply holding picks in 2017 and '18. I don't like putting the cart before the horse when it comes to touting drafts that have borne no actual NHL fruit yet but I do admit to being giddy about this past one.
