2023-2024 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

[Majorityof1]

Schenn isn't having a down year. This is who he is.

Possibly. But despite your oh-so persuasive, well-articulated, totally supported with facts and reasoning...oh wait, no. You don't have any of that. I'll wait and see before writing him off.

 

[BadgersandBlues]

I don't disagree. Schenn's had a down year, Saad's been shakier on D and streakier than normal, we lack a play driver on that line and our first line is not elite enough to get away with a weaker 2nd line. But I do disagree that the individual players are not 2nd liners on a better constructed line/ team.

I see what you're saying. Yes, there's a solid chance that Schenn can rebound - he has been reborn since we moved him away from Center. With Thomas he's been scoring at a pretty consistent clip these last 8-13 games. He's always been streaky, so this might have happened anyway, but moving him back to wing in general was the catalyst.

 

[Brian39]

Moving this hear as opposed to a GDT.

On the topic of +/- :

We had 8 guys to start last night in the plus column. One of those was Bortuzzo. Another is Scandella.

Tucker and Peru are plus guys. This might explode heads.

That makes 4 guys out of 8 that haven’t played critical roles that are plus players. Yikes!

We have 19 minus players at the start of last game.

Krug leds the pack at a stellar -31. Followed by Schenn at -23 and Neighbours at -16.

Kyrou is currently at -10 for the season. So a ton better than last year, but certainly room for improvement.

Over the last two years our worst plus minus offenders are Krug (-57), Schenn (-49), Kyrou(-48) and Neighbours(-35).

Neighbours has been relatively stapled to Schenn and he his still growing into his game, so he gets some level of pass on the heavy criticism.

If we included PPP in the +\- stat then this would be the line:
Krug - 35
Schenn - 22
Kyrou - 5
Neighbours - 19

We clearly need better from guys getting big minutes. It will be interesting to see if Kyrou continues in the right direction. Will Neighbours be better if he is paired with a center other than Schenn? Will he continue to round out his game and make improvements on that number?

Next year will be interesting to see how those two do. I am leaving Krug and Schenn off the list, as I feel pretty confident that the trend line for them will continue, but would be happy to see improvements there. I could see Schenn’s numbers improving if he is moved to wing, where I think he should be.

The next tier of bad +/- guys are Blais, Vrana, Sunny and McGing. Aside from Sunny I think we can move on from all of those guys.

I hope this doesn’t come off as thinking +/- is some great, end-all, be-all stat. I really don’t think that. It is more to illustrate where we ended up last season and who to keep an eye on next season.

This team's +/- largely just tells me that we pull the goalie a lot because we trail in a lot of games. We're 5th in the league in TOI with our goalie pulled and have allowed the 5th most goals in those situations. We are 15th in goals for with an empty net, which isn't great but also isn't a horrible indictment of the roster. I think that pulling the goalie all the damn time is by far the reason so many guys have such ugly +/- stats.

Kyrou is +7 at 5 on 5. I couldn't care less what his +/- is given his differential at 5 on 5. The fact that he is -11 when we have our goalie pulled, -6 on the PP, -2 in OT, and +2 when the other team has an empty net doesn't inform me of anything about his play. His entire 'minus' line comes from other team's scoring shorties and empty netters against us.

Krug is -21 at 5 on 5. That tells me something, but I think we all already know what it is telling us. He shouldn't be playing big minutes and I very much doubt that this differential improves much unless his role dramatically changes.

Schenn is -8 at 5 on 5. Most around here know that I'm not at all a fan of his defensive game, but that differential isn't nearly as bad as his +/- suggests.

Neighbours is -7 at 5 on 5. He certainly has room to round out his defensive game, but he is young and made a pretty sizeable improvement since last year.

The numbers aren't nearly so bad when we have a goalie.

 

[Blueston]

I see what you're saying. Yes, there's a solid chance that Schenn can rebound - he has been reborn since we moved him away from Center. With Thomas he's been scoring at a pretty consistent clip these last 8-13 games. He's always been streaky, so this might have happened anyway, but moving him back to wing in general was the catalyst.

Agreed. Biggest issue with our roster is we don’t have anyone who can be effective 2c. Schenn I think is still fairly effective top 6 winger, but our 2nd line has struggled bc of c issues.

 

[Spektre]

Possibly. But despite your oh-so persuasive, well-articulated, totally supported with facts and reasoning...oh wait, no. You don't have any of that. I'll wait and see before writing him off.

 

[Brian39]

Agreed. Biggest issue with our roster is we don’t have anyone who can be effective 2c. Schenn I think is still fairly effective top 6 winger, but our 2nd line has struggled bc of c issues.

I still think that the construction of the LD is a bigger issue.

Leddy has had another season that I'm extremely happy with. He's gotten way better results than he has any business getting in a 22+ minute a night top pair shutdown role. But he shouldn't be in that role and he's not a top pair shutdown guy on a contending team.

Krug isn't anything close to an effective 21-22 minute a night all situations guy. And while I think he and Faulk can be effective together in a highly sheltered, all offensive usage role, I think that they are a disaster together when they are paired together in our own zone.

We don't have enough D who can effectively kill penalties, leaving Faulk and Krug as our 3rd and 4th most frequent penalty killing D men.

Our entire D group has really struggled without a top pair LD. It has forced multiple guys to play a role that they can't effectively handle and saddled Parayko/Faulk with the responsibility of picking up extra slack on the pair that they are otherwise suited for.

Both are major roster issues and the 2C issue is newer than the LD issue. But I think that the lack of a 1LD is still the bigger of the two issues.

 

[Celtic Note]

I don’t really understand the fixation with trying to find a 2C this off season. We aren’t a Cup contender with one and our biggest holes are still on D. The 2 C market is thin and with the cap rising, are we going to get a bloated contract for a just ok player? And if that player is affordable, why wouldn’t they go to a team that can actually compete?

I would much rather have as much cap flexibility as possible until we acquire guys to plug the holes on D and remove the guys who are on bad or soon to be bad contracts.

I am personally in no rush to make the playoffs. I still feel we are in the asset accumulation phase so let’s not try to make a playoff roster due to impatience.

 

[Blueston]

I don’t really understand the fixation with trying to find a 2C this off season. We aren’t a Cup contender with one and our biggest holes are still on D. The 2 C market is thin and with the cap rising, are we going to get a bloated contract for a just ok player? And if that player is affordable, why wouldn’t they go to a team that can actually compete?

I would much rather have as much cap flexibility as possible until we acquire guys to plug the holes on D and remove the guys who are on bad or soon to be bad contracts.

I am personally in no rush to make the playoffs. I still feel we are in the asset accumulation phase so let’s not try to make a playoff roster due to impatience.

concern to me is that we need another c so we can aid in development of our young wingers. they need to understand how to get in their prime scoring positions and to know that their c can and will get him the puck. if they spend whole game digging pucks out of corner that doesn't help them. we need someone besides thomas who can do it.

 

[Celtic Note]

concern to me is that we need another c so we can aid in development of our young wingers. they need to understand how to get in their prime scoring positions and to know that their c can and will get him the puck. if they spend whole game digging pucks out of corner that doesn't help them. we need someone besides thomas who can do it.

I can appreciate that. But does that need to be a #2 or would a #3 guy be fine.

 

[Blueston]

I can appreciate that. But does that need to be a #2 or would a #3 guy be fine.

i'm not looking for high end guy. someone like wennberg? maybe tyler johnson even, although he may be too washed? i think we were hoping hayes could be this guy, but he isn't that guy.

 

[Celtic Note]

i'm not looking for high end guy. someone like wennberg? maybe tyler johnson even, although he may be too washed? i think we were hoping hayes could be this guy, but he isn't that guy.

Personally I never understood why we targeted Hayes other than he was amongst the fruit laying on the ground.

I could see plugging in a guy like you say. Just get a cheap stopgap.

 

[ezcreepin]

This team's +/- largely just tells me that we pull the goalie a lot because we trail in a lot of games. We're 5th in the league in TOI with our goalie pulled and have allowed the 5th most goals in those situations. We are 15th in goals for with an empty net, which isn't great but also isn't a horrible indictment of the roster. I think that pulling the goalie all the damn time is by far the reason so many guys have such ugly +/- stats.

Kyrou is +7 at 5 on 5. I couldn't care less what his +/- is given his differential at 5 on 5. The fact that he is -11 when we have our goalie pulled, -6 on the PP, -2 in OT, and +2 when the other team has an empty net doesn't inform me of anything about his play. His entire 'minus' line comes from other team's scoring shorties and empty netters against us.

Krug is -21 at 5 on 5. That tells me something, but I think we all already know what it is telling us. He shouldn't be playing big minutes and I very much doubt that this differential improves much unless his role dramatically changes.

Schenn is -8 at 5 on 5. Most around here know that I'm not at all a fan of his defensive game, but that differential isn't nearly as bad as his +/- suggests.

Neighbours is -7 at 5 on 5. He certainly has room to round out his defensive game, but he is young and made a pretty sizeable improvement since last year.

The numbers aren't nearly so bad when we have a goalie.

I think this stat for Kyrou is interesting, but could also be a clue into other parts of his game. If he is a minus on the powerplay, 6 on 5, and OT, it could point to him forcing unnecessary plays during higher leverage situations. I'm not accusing him of this, but we might be able to infer this next year once we've played halfway through the season. I think it's obvious that he tends to puck handle too much in the offensive zone, and it's possible that he gets bailed out more frequently at even strength. On the powerplay, we're using 4 forwards and 1 defenseman (to my knowledge), in OT obiously 2 forwards, 1 D, and maybe on the 6 on 5 he is forcing plays more so because of the urgency. Still happy he's a + player at even strength, but I would prefer he start implementing more simple plays to his game as opposed to deking out everyone when he sees an opportunity.

 

[PocketNines]

LMFAO

 

[Blueston]

I think this stat for Kyrou is interesting, but could also be a clue into other parts of his game. If he is a minus on the powerplay, 6 on 5, and OT, it could point to him forcing unnecessary plays during higher leverage situations. I'm not accusing him of this, but we might be able to infer this next year once we've played halfway through the season. I think it's obvious that he tends to puck handle too much in the offensive zone, and it's possible that he gets bailed out more frequently at even strength. On the powerplay, we're using 4 forwards and 1 defenseman (to my knowledge), in OT obiously 2 forwards, 1 D, and maybe on the 6 on 5 he is forcing plays more so because of the urgency. Still happy he's a + player at even strength, but I would prefer he start implementing more simple plays to his game as opposed to deking out everyone when he sees an opportunity.

everybody is minus on the pp bc you can't get +.

 

[ezcreepin]

everybody is minus on the pp bc you can't get +.

You know I totally forgot that entirely HOWEVER, we've given up 7 shorthanded goals so there could be something to be said that he is a -6 on the pp.

Edit: Other than him being on the 1st pp unit and getting most of the ice time

 

[joe galiba]

You know I totally forgot that entirely HOWEVER, we've given up 7 shorthanded goals so there could be something to be said that he is a -6 on the pp.

Edit: Other than him being on the 1st pp unit and getting most of the ice time

it is not Kyrou
ga/60 on the power play
schenn 1.8
krug 1.6
kyrou and buch 1.5
thomas 1.4

 

[Xerloris]

I don’t really understand the fixation with trying to find a 2C this off season. We aren’t a Cup contender with one and our biggest holes are still on D. The 2 C market is thin and with the cap rising, are we going to get a bloated contract for a just ok player? And if that player is affordable, why wouldn’t they go to a team that can actually compete?

I would much rather have as much cap flexibility as possible until we acquire guys to plug the holes on D and remove the guys who are on bad or soon to be bad contracts.

I am personally in no rush to make the playoffs. I still feel we are in the asset accumulation phase so let’s not try to make a playoff roster due to impatience.

We're trying to bring up kids to give them NHL experience and maybe they stick. As of now the only center we have that can actually give them a legit shot is Thomas and he happens to also be our #1C and our shut down C. He can't do it all. Having a legit 2C is a good thing to have. Monohan at 6mx3 years would be fine with me. We're not going to fix our LD until Krug is gone anyway.

I think this stat for Kyrou is interesting, but could also be a clue into other parts of his game. If he is a minus on the powerplay, 6 on 5, and OT, it could point to him forcing unnecessary plays during higher leverage situations. I'm not accusing him of this, but we might be able to infer this next year once we've played halfway through the season. I think it's obvious that he tends to puck handle too much in the offensive zone, and it's possible that he gets bailed out more frequently at even strength. On the powerplay, we're using 4 forwards and 1 defenseman (to my knowledge), in OT obiously 2 forwards, 1 D, and maybe on the 6 on 5 he is forcing plays more so because of the urgency. Still happy he's a + player at even strength, but I would prefer he start implementing more simple plays to his game as opposed to deking out everyone when he sees an opportunity.

Seems kind of weird to blame 7 shorthanded goals against on Kyrou doing something wrong.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I think this stat for Kyrou is interesting, but could also be a clue into other parts of his game. If he is a minus on the powerplay, 6 on 5, and OT, it could point to him forcing unnecessary plays during higher leverage situations. I'm not accusing him of this, but we might be able to infer this next year once we've played halfway through the season. I think it's obvious that he tends to puck handle too much in the offensive zone, and it's possible that he gets bailed out more frequently at even strength. On the powerplay, we're using 4 forwards and 1 defenseman (to my knowledge), in OT obiously 2 forwards, 1 D, and maybe on the 6 on 5 he is forcing plays more so because of the urgency. Still happy he's a + player at even strength, but I would prefer he start implementing more simple plays to his game as opposed to deking out everyone when he sees an opportunity.

Here's all the GA of Kyrou on the PP this year. Two of which I 100% put on Kyrou. But the other four I really have a hard time.


Oct 28th Van vs STL: JT Miller SHG In the Neutral Zone Krug hands the puck directly to Pettersson who chips the puck around Krug to JT Miller who Buries it.

St. Louis Blues - Vancouver Canucks - Oct 27, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - St. Louis Blues vs. Vancouver Canucks, Oct 27, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

Nov 19th LAK vs STL: Schenn passes puck to Krug at the Point, Kempe pokes the pass around Krug and is off on a breakaway.

Los Angeles Kings - St. Louis Blues - Nov 18, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Los Angeles Kings vs. St. Louis Blues, Nov 18, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

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Dec 13th DET vs STL: Kyrou is along the boards fighting with Veleno, puck get's stolen from Kyrou and Veleno Clears the put out of the Zone past Krug, Hayes coasts back and let's Rasmussen easily get to the puck for an Empty net goal. (I Blame Kyrou on this one on getting his pocket picked, but, Krug did basically nothing to hold it in and Hayes gave up on the play as well)

Detroit Red Wings - St. Louis Blues - Dec 12, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Detroit Red Wings vs. St. Louis Blues, Dec 12, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

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Dec 23th Chi vs STL: Kyrou get's walked by Foligno. 100% Kyrou's fault

Chicago Blackhawks - St. Louis Blues - Dec 23, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Chicago Blackhawks vs. St. Louis Blues, Dec 23, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

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Feb 19th TOR vs STL: Buch tries to be pretty, passes it to Krug who immediately has the puck knocked away from him and past him and Buch springing Nylander and Holmberg on a 2 on 0 breakaway.

St. Louis Blues - Toronto Maple Leafs - Feb 19, 2024 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - St. Louis Blues vs. Toronto Maple Leafs, Feb 19, 2024 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

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April 4th NAS vs STL: Faulk gently passes the puck up ice from the D Zone into the Neutral Zone right past Buch directly onto the stick of Jankowski

Nashville Predators - St. Louis Blues - Apr 4, 2024 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Nashville Predators vs. St. Louis Blues, Apr 4, 2024 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

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(Idk how to put the videos from NHL.com to HFboards sorry)

 

[ezcreepin]

Seems kind of weird to blame 7 shorthanded goals against on Kyrou doing something wrong.

Literally did not blame him for the 7 shorthanded goals but found it interesting he is a -6 on the pp when there are only 7 against. We refer to him trying to make too many moves in the offensive zone and that it's possible this could've contributed to the shorties, but I'm not making the claim that it was that, rather that it should be looked into. I'd like more info (which Linkens provided) to see if that were the case (which it's not).

Here's all the GA of Kyrou on the PP this year. Two of which I 100% put on Kyrou. But the other four I really have a hard time.


Oct 28th Van vs STL: JT Miller SHG In the Neutral Zone Krug hands the puck directly to Pettersson who chips the puck around Krug to JT Miller who Buries it.

St. Louis Blues - Vancouver Canucks - Oct 27, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - St. Louis Blues vs. Vancouver Canucks, Oct 27, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

Nov 19th LAK vs STL: Schenn passes puck to Krug at the Point, Kempe pokes the pass around Krug and is off on a breakaway.

Los Angeles Kings - St. Louis Blues - Nov 18, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Los Angeles Kings vs. St. Louis Blues, Nov 18, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

Dec 13th DET vs STL: Kyrou is along the boards fighting with Veleno, puck get's stolen from Kyrou and Veleno Clears the put out of the Zone past Krug, Hayes coasts back and let's Rasmussen easily get to the puck for an Empty net goal. (I Blame Kyrou on this one on getting his pocket picked, but, Krug did basically nothing to hold it in and Hayes gave up on the play as well)

Detroit Red Wings - St. Louis Blues - Dec 12, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Detroit Red Wings vs. St. Louis Blues, Dec 12, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

Dec 23th Chi vs STL: Kyrou get's walked by Foligno. 100% Kyrou's fault

Chicago Blackhawks - St. Louis Blues - Dec 23, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Chicago Blackhawks vs. St. Louis Blues, Dec 23, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

Feb 19th TOR vs STL: Buch tries to be pretty, passes it to Krug who immediately has the puck knocked away from him and past him and Buch springing Nylander and Holmberg on a 2 on 0 breakaway.

St. Louis Blues - Toronto Maple Leafs - Feb 19, 2024 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - St. Louis Blues vs. Toronto Maple Leafs, Feb 19, 2024 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

April 4th NAS vs STL: Faulk gently passes the puck up ice from the D Zone into the Neutral Zone right past Buch directly onto the stick of Jankowski

Nashville Predators - St. Louis Blues - Apr 4, 2024 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Nashville Predators vs. St. Louis Blues, Apr 4, 2024 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

(Idk how to put the videos from NHL.com to HFboards sorry)

Thanks Linkens for looking into that, I couldn't find the +/- stat for each of the on ice situations and wasn't about to go in full depth research tonight. So then clearly for some reason he seems to be a victim of bad circumstance, at least this year, when we look at the +/- stat.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Out of a possible 6 points against San Jose, we've collected 1 point. That's the difference between playoffs and no playoffs.

 

[bleedblue1223]

And for that #2 C, I don't want to go crazy on the position, but I do think it's a need worth exploring. Schenn and Hayes haven't proven they are up to it, but maybe with a new coach/system, they would be? I see a few different options, we can either go with someone older on a short term deal, someone that is more of a slight upgrade, but still an upgrade that wouldn't require anything too expensive or long-term, or we could try and trade for someone like we did with Schenn, so someone still relatively young, that needs a change of scenery for some reason.

And it's not that I see the team as a contender or 1 position away from being a contender, but as players like Bolduc and Snuggerud come up, I think it's important that we have more than just Thomas as a quality playmaking center. Or when Dvorsky comes up, he doesn't have to play center.

I view the need sort of like a Kariya or McDonald acquisition from the previous rebuild. And speaking of Kariya, while he didn't make Boyes, and it's unfortunate that Boyes fell off like he did, Boyes still got us Edmundson in the end. And McDonald was a major driver on our offense when he was healthy.

 

[TheOrganist]

The only only 2C option I've seen proposed that would be worthwhile is the one Brian has been proposing of offering a mediocre pick for William Karlsson when the Knights have to start shedding some dollars this offseason.

 

[Brian39]

The only only 2C option I've seen proposed that would be worthwhile is the one Brian has been proposing of offering a mediocre pick for William Karlsson when the Knights have to start shedding some dollars this offseason.

The fact that they just gave Hanifin $7.35M a year increases their need to shed that salary. I still wouldn't fully count them out to try and extend a guy like Marchessault or Stephenson either. Both play bigger roles than Karlsson, so it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them move Karlsson for whatever they can get before UFA opens if they can reach agreeable terms with either.

 

[STLegend]

I really hope Hayes has played his last game in a Blues sweater...

I get what DA was trying to do, we are thin on centers and by adding a vet you don't have to rush a young guy that isn't ready yet. But he targeted the wrong vet, its not like its just that his top 9 days are behind him and you can rely on him to center the 4th line. He has no business being in the NHL at this point, only thing he does is win faceoffs... surely we could've found a vet that is good on the dot but also capable of skating, checking, or hitting. Only thing I can think is that Hayes was part of a bigger Sanheim package and when Krug nixed that DA went ahead and got Hayes anyway.

Hayes is a prime candidate to be bought out, get it done DA.

 

[Brian39]

I really hope Hayes has played his last game in a Blues sweater...

I get what DA was trying to do, we are thin on centers and by adding a vet you don't have to rush a young guy that isn't ready yet. But he targeted the wrong vet, its not like its just that his top 9 days are behind him and you can rely on him to center the 4th line. He has no business being in the NHL at this point, only thing he does is win faceoffs... surely we could've found a vet that is good on the dot but also capable of skating, checking, or hitting. Only thing I can think is that Hayes was part of a bigger Sanheim package and when Krug nixed that DA went ahead and got Hayes anyway.

Hayes is a prime candidate to be bought out, get it done DA.

I very much disagree that he doesn't belong in the NHL.

He had a 40% O-zone start rate and still put up 13 even strength goals and 11 even strength assists while putting up decent possession metrics relevant to his teammates, being one of our few non-minus players, and our best faceoff man. He had more takeaways than giveaways. The Athletic pegged his current market value at $2.6M. Hockey Reference has him at a 2.4 points share.

What is the argument that he is a below replacement-level bottom 6 player?