WJC: 2022 Team Finland roster talk

[ChicagoBullsFan]

Good luck to gold medal game Finland.

 

[Mestaruus]

Would you replace Lambert with if you were Pennanen?

Sorry for the late reply. I just had a feeling that they won't let him play and seems like I was right this time. Unless it was some kind on health issue? He hasn't played horribly but he's definitely not someone that can't be replaced.

I must say that superb job by Finland's coaching. They did the right goalie selection and now we can see another goalie against Canada compared to the previous Canada meeting. Meriläinen hasn't played bad but we haven't seen anything convincing from him either. On the ice Finland was just the better team.

Pennanen will be Finland's men's national team head coach one day. That has been pretty clear to me for a long time and I hope that when Jukka Jalonen one day stops at his current job, Pennanen will step right in to replace him. Hopefully Pennanen doesn't have contract anywhere at that moment. Some kind of exit clause in that contract would be good to have.

Canada will be very hard to beat though. Can our defense handle the chaos that Canada causes in front of our net remains to be seen. Jatkola can't single handedly win that game. Finland must play even better than against Sweden in the final against Canada.

 

[Mestaruus]

I expect Pennanen to get respect now. That was a masterclass.

Yes. I feel like he is getting too much hate here. He has the potential to be next Jukka Jalonen in terms of producing multiple golds for team Finland. It's not always easy to coach juniors either. They do mistakes that are frustrating for coaches. Now Pennanen got them to play their best game of the tournament at the right moment with the right goalie selection. Now there's nothing to loose against Canada. Silver wouldn't feel horrible compared to some other times before a big final, but hopefully Finland's defense can deal better with Canada in the rematch.

Like i said couple weeks ago, keep calm and trust the coach. And i would add "trust the system" & "trust the progress" to the list.

Pennanen is a proven winner, this whole witch hunt has been ridiculous. Just like Ahokas/Luukkonen in 2019, except it's reversed this time. Now we have to wait and see if the result is same as it was in 2019.

Exactly.

 

[Svedu]

Well, no Meriläinen in net. For once a good decision.

I won't praise Pennanen for anything before he can show that we can play at least even against Canada, he has the roster to do that.
Also, Sweden missed more players than we did in form av Raymond etc.

I really don't get the praise either. Before the tournament started it was clear that Sweden didn't get all their best players.
The US? Far from their best roster (historically these last 10 years) where their so called "Stars" wouldn't have been stars in earlier rosters
Slovaks, germans, etc etc.

Everything else than a final or a decent effort against Canada (final or semifinal) would have been a big underachievement.

 

[Svedu]

Monten bad.

Exactly this.

 

[Svedu]

Monten doesn't skate or shoot the puck, Swedes had the talent to score but Finland didn't give them any chances. That was a masterclass of how to kill a game and get the result.

That was Jalonen textbook stuff, they did the necessary. Then people actually think that this is what they'd do against Canada for example, against Canada "the necessary" is much more than against Sweden. It's really tiring to see hot takes after first couple of preliminary games, people should know better after all these years. But it's the same thing next year aswell, struggle against Latvia or Slovakia and tournament is over in their heads.

You do know Raymond, Holtz and Eklund were missing? (Repetitive, but needed)
So no, you're wrong. Their offensive talent were questionable and even the Swedish commentators in SVT admitted that under the whole journey.
Should i add that Montén is the most hated coach in Swedish history? Mårts, Gustafsson, Grönborg and others aren't even close. It's like Rautakorpi type of level.

And guess what, he's so called first goalie didn't play. The one who got selected before Blomqvist. He was supposed to be special according to Pennanen.
So please, chill with your one sided, never ending analysis before the game against Canada. I want to see us compete against them first, before you shout out that he's any kind of mastermind when this was expected.

Pennanen had the roster all time long, we should be better than Sweden and the US this year, even with questionable selections.

 

[illone84]

Sorry for the late reply. I just had a feeling that they won't let him play and seems like I was right this time. Unless it was some kind on health issue? He hasn't played horribly but he's definitely not someone that can't be replaced.

I must say that superb job by Finland's coaching. They did the right goalie selection and now we can see another goalie against Canada compared to the previous Canada meeting. Meriläinen hasn't played bad but we haven't seen anything convincing from him either. On the ice Finland was just the better team.

Pennanen will be Finland's men's national team head coach one day. That has been pretty clear to me for a long time and I hope that when Jukka Jalonen one day stops at his current job, Pennanen will step right in to replace him. Hopefully Pennanen doesn't have contract anywhere at that moment. Some kind of exit clause in that contract would be good to have.

Canada will be very hard to beat though. Can our defense handle the chaos that Canada causes in front of our net remains to be seen. Jatkola can't single handedly win that game. Finland must play even better than against Sweden in the final against Canada.

No worries. You definitely had a good hunch and you were right about Lambert. Did we find out if it was due to a minor injury or was he indeed a healthy scratch? The onus was on Pennanen to make the decision to put in Jatkola and it paid off. I wonder if they will reward Jatkola with the chance to play in the GWG? Might be a stupid question but you never know. Let's see what happens, I'm convinced Finland will play much better than they did against CAN in the round robin but quite sure Canada wins by 2 goals or more.

 

[Jukurit]

Hirvonen - Räty duo was good in round robin, but hasn't been as good in elimination games (IMO).

 

[Svedu]

Hirvonen - Räty duo was good in round robin, but hasn't been as good in elimination games (IMO).

I'm a bit disappointed with Räty so far. I believed he would be a true star in this tournament. I compare him to talents like Eklund, Holtz etc. He should be able to create a bit more because he has that talent in him.
I thought that he, together with Niemelä were those that would give us a big edge to nations like Sweden and the US in this years tournament but that hasn't been the case. Even game yesterday.

My concern regarding Räty is his skating. I do think it's pretty bad. Even if a lot of commentators here disagree. Heavy, static legs.
Also, his finish when he was alone with Wallstedt was poor. A possible game winning chance in a game. Hopefully he can turn it up in the final.
Haven't followed Hirvonen as closely to be honest.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I'm a bit disappointed with Räty so far. I believed he would be a true star in this tournament. I compare him to talents like Eklund, Holtz etc. He should be able to create a bit more because he has that talent in him.
I thought that he, together with Niemelä were those that would give us a big edge to nations like Sweden and the US in this years tournament but that hasn't been the case. Even game yesterday.

My concern regarding Räty is his skating. I do think it's pretty bad. Even if a lot of commentators here disagree. Heavy, static legs.
Also, his finish when he was alone with Wallstedt was poor. A possible game winning chance in a game. Hopefully he can turn it up in the final.
Haven't followed Hirvonen as closely to be honest.

Yeah you can see he's got some nice hands / vision and is strong on the puck, but his agility is pretty poor. Reminds me a bit of Nick Bonino.

I suspect he'll be a solid but unspectacular NHL player unless he finds another gear.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Am I the only one who thought this game was much closer than it should have been? I really wasn't all that impressed by Finland's effort - they looked flat much of the game. They had like 4 PPs in a row and did pretty much nothing. They were quite fortunate Sweden didn't have a lot of their most talented players, especially on that 5v3. You could see how much trouble the swedes had just making basic passes. Definitely Sweden's worst team I can remember watching in the ~20 years I've been following this tournament.

I think if they didn't start Jatkola, Sweden would have won - good call by Pennanen there, though I'd say with the way Merilainen has played it felt obvious.

 

[Svedu]

Am I the only one who thought this game was much closer than it should have been? I really wasn't all that impressed by Finland's effort - they looked flat much of the game. They had like 4 PPs in a row and did pretty much nothing. They were quite fortunate Sweden didn't have a lot of their most talented players, especially on that 5v3. You could see how much trouble the swedes had just making basic passes. Definitely Sweden's worst team I can remember watching in the ~20 years I've been following this tournament.

I think if they didn't start Jatkola, Sweden would have won - good call by Pennanen there, though I'd say with the way Merilainen has played it felt obvious.

Spot on.

 

[karhukissa]

You do know Raymond, Holtz and Eklund were missing? (Repetitive, but needed)
So no, you're wrong. Their offensive talent were questionable and even the Swedish commentators in SVT admitted that under the whole journey.
Should i add that Montén is the most hated coach in Swedish history? Mårts, Gustafsson, Grönborg and others aren't even close. It's like Rautakorpi type of level.

And guess what, he's so called first goalie didn't play. The one who got selected before Blomqvist. He was supposed to be special according to Pennanen.
So please, chill with your one sided, never ending analysis before the game against Canada. I want to see us compete against them first, before you shout out that he's any kind of mastermind when this was expected.

Pennanen had the roster all time long, we should be better than Sweden and the US this year, even with questionable selections.

It's just a big paradox that Jalonen is the king of coaches and Pennanen is getting the hate, because in fact they are coaching exactly similar style of hockey, similar playbook. In U20 level opponents are usually playing more with feeling than brains, so at times it might look that Finland is in big trouble but again one loss so far in this tourney.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

It's just a big paradox that Jalonen is the king of coaches and Pennanen is getting the hate, because in fact they are coaching exactly similar style of hockey, similar playbook. In U20 level opponents are usually playing more with feeling than brains, so at times it might look that Finland is in big trouble but again one loss so far in this tourney.

One loss isn't all that impressive considering the competition. The Czechs took them to a shootout because Finland decided to take the first half of the game off.

Coaching has less to do with systems than it does motivating players and putting the right players in the right roles. This Finnish group has played very nonchalant hockey compared to what I've come to expect, and seem quite slow and soft. They really lack dynamism in their forward group, which is why the decision making on Lambert has been so odd.

 

[karhukissa]

One loss isn't all that impressive considering the competition. The Czechs took them to a shootout because Finland decided to take the first half of the game off.

Coaching has less to do with systems than it does motivating players and putting the right players in the right roles. This Finnish group has played very nonchalant hockey compared to what I've come to expect, and seem quite slow and soft. They really lack dynamism in their forward group, which is why the decision making on Lambert has been so odd.

I don't care if they lost 3 games, somehow get to the QF and then end up in final. Nothing else matters than result, right? There isn't a single time when Finland has played poorly in a game that truly matters (in recent history)

Yes Finland looked very unmotivated yesterday Pennanen clearly can't prepare this team. Lambert has been very poor and luckily he was healthy scratch. Yesterday that team executed their plan perfectly and every player fought like no tomorrow.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I don't care if they lost 3 games, somehow get to the QF and then end up in final. Nothing else matters than result, right? There isn't a single time when Finland has played poorly in a game that truly matters (in recent history)

Yes Finland looked very unmotivated yesterday Pennanen clearly can't prepare this team. Lambert has been very poor and luckily he was healthy scratch. Yesterday that team executed their plan perfectly and every player fought like no tomorrow.

They did look unmotivated yesterday, yes. The team has not been playing well. Fortunately for them, this is a very weak Swedish team and the US did them a favor by not showing up against the Czechs.

I will be rooting for you guys vs Canada but if you guys haven't shown anything to suggest you can beat them.

 

[karhukissa]

They did look unmotivated yesterday, yes. The team has not been playing well. Fortunately for them, this is a very weak Swedish team and the US did them a favor by not showing up against the Czechs.

I will be rooting for you guys vs Canada but if you guys haven't shown anything to suggest you can beat them.

They haven't been playing well in this tournament, correct. But they have played well enough. Yesterday they played easily the best game defensively, they looked super unmotivated when they killed that 5-3 and defended the lead. That is just ridiculous statement that they looked unmotivated and i don't know what to say to you.

First of all, it doesn't matter if there's Donald Trump behind Finland bench in any tournament ever, they always have the motivation for that jersey. It's not Team USA where motivation level depends on the daily mood and moons position. So you might dislike Pennanen but in these games motivation isn't the issue.

Mark my words, final will be very equal game. If it's not, all of you can quote me and laugh. And if it is, then we all can act surprised once again and give some excuse X. I promise that if Finland plays bad against Canada, i'll wear a donkey hat and say that Pennanen time is over and Svedu was right all along.

 

[Svedu]

They haven't been playing well in this tournament, correct. But they have played well enough. Yesterday they played easily the best game defensively, they looked super unmotivated when they killed that 5-3 and defended the lead. That is just ridiculous statement that they looked unmotivated and i don't know what to say to you.

First of all, it doesn't matter if there's Donald Trump behind Finland bench in any tournament ever, they always have the motivation for that jersey. It's not Team USA where motivation level depends on the daily mood and moons position. So you might dislike Pennanen but in these games motivation isn't the issue.

Mark my words, final will be very equal game. If it's not, all of you can quote me and laugh. And if it is, then we all can act surprised once again and give some excuse X. I promise that if Finland plays bad against Canada, i'll wear a donkey hat and say that Pennanen time is over and Svedu was right all along.

I have been right. I expected a final form the beginning? That doesn't mean that we have been good? Or that the competition has been of high level?
Why do you so often think or believe that one thing excludes the other? Why must someone explain that for some of you guys? It's like you're trying to misunderstand someone else’s point.

Let's hope that we win! That's why we are so passionated, because we root for Finland wholeheartedly.
But even if we win, that won't make anything in your post sounding more right than his or mine above.
Finland has lacked to impress. The selection of goalies could still be questioned for more than one reason.
The US and Sweden weren't that strong from the get go. The latter missed their best players and this years US just didn't have those players that makes you feel amazed in any way.
Russia are not participating.
Slovakia with their best talent could've beaten us without question, upset or not.
Germany could have been a lot tougher opponent as well. Even Austria missed their best player.
All in all, there are a lot of factors that made this possible. To get to the final even when we've played really bad.
It's not because of Pennanen, but you can keep on insisting on that and picture him as our savior. Go ahead.

 

[karhukissa]

I have been right. I expected a final form the beginning? That doesn't mean that we have been good? Or that the competition has been of high level?
Why do you so often think or believe that one thing excludes the other? Why must someone explain that for some of you guys? It's like you're trying to misunderstand someone else’s point.

Let's hope that we win! That's why we are so passionated, because we root for Finland wholeheartedly.
But even if we win, that won't make anything in your post sounding more right than his or mine above.
Finland has lacked to impress. The selection of goalies could still be questioned for more than one reason.
The US and Sweden weren't that strong from the get go. The latter missed their best players and this years US just didn't have those players that makes you feel amazed in any way.
Russia are not participating.
Slovakia with their best talent could've beaten us without question, upset or not.
Germany could have been a lot tougher opponent as well. Even Austria missed their best player.
All in all, there are a lot of factors that made this possible. To get to the final even when we've played really bad.
It's not because of Pennanen, but you can keep on insisting on that and picture him as our savior. Go ahead.

World doesn't work like that, you can't say that they were missing player x or player x. It's impossible to know what would've happened if Slovakia or Sweden had their best team, that's why there's no point to talk about it. If Sweden scored 1-0, it would've been different game and different things would've happened. There are billions of possibilities in this life, if you go to grocery store and turn right instead of left you might get hit by a car and die. There is no point to talk about whatifs because we don't know for fact.

Finland has culture in their national teams nowadays which goes beyond Pennanen or his choices and selections. These kids has grown into it, that system gives them backbone to win anyone anytime, regardless what happened in preliminary rounds, also mentally they are ready to play tough games. How many times we need to play like trash in preliminary games and end up gettint medals that it's not counted as a coincidence? This is something what people here doesn't seem to understand.

I don't agree with leaving Blomqvist out, also i don't agree with all his decisions. But for me result matters and everything else is irrelevant.

 

[Ippenator]

It's just a big paradox that Jalonen is the king of coaches and Pennanen is getting the hate, because in fact they are coaching exactly similar style of hockey, similar playbook. In U20 level opponents are usually playing more with feeling than brains, so at times it might look that Finland is in big trouble but again one loss so far in this tourney.

There’s a big difference between their coaching methods in fact. Sure their basic style is similar with the basic play, but Jalonen is very good still with reacting to his opponents scouting his tactics. Pennanen just keeps on grinding his method even when the opponent has obviously scouted it well.

Also Pennanen tries to play everything clearly more safe than Jalonen does. Jalonen has always been willing to pick the most talented super young players to his teams and has also given them huge roles in his teams. Kakko and Lundell at WHC for example and Aho, Laine and Pulju in 2016 U20 WJC.

He put Aho courageously to play as the center as an underager although he didn’t even have much of experience of playing as a center before that, and he gave Aho’s line huge amount of ice time and trusted them in almost any situation, which gave great confidence to the very talented line with one underager and two double underagers. That was absolutely the key for winning gold in that tournament. Another key thing was that he embraced a very offensive way of playing in that tournament, as he had very gifted players for doing it. He just simply is a mastermind in adapting to different kind of situations and making the right choices. I haven’t seen anything like that from Pennanen. He is just a very system stuck coach, who has a generally well working system, that is still even more based on playing boring safety hockey than Jalonen’s is. And as I said, Pennanen will always choose experienced safety players over super talented younger players.

Pennanen is the most boring coach I have ever seen with the biggest ego at the same time. The most irritating coach I have ever seen, in addition to the absolutely horribly irritating and boring coaches like Lauri Marjamäki and Paul Maurice. Each of them are just so irritating, as both coaches and how they are as public personalities.

 

[Golden_Jet]

He has simply not and you're wrong.

Let's just hope he does get better in the playoffs.

Well Leevi has better numbers than the other guy.

 

[karhukissa]

There’s a big difference between their coaching methods in fact. Sure their basic style is similar with the basic play, but Jalonen is very good still with reacting to his opponents scouting his tactics. Pennanen just keeps on grinding his method even when the opponent has obviously scouted it well.

Also Pennanen tries to play everything clearly more safe than Jalonen does. Jalonen has always been willing to pick the most talented super young players to his teams and has also given them huge roles in his teams. Kakko and Lundell at WHC for example and Aho, Laine and Pulju in 2016 U20 WJC.

He put Aho courageously to play as the center as an underager although he didn’t even have much of experience of playing as a center before that, and he gave Aho’s line huge amount of ice time and trusted them in almost any situation, which gave great confidence to the very talented line with one underager and two double underagers. That was absolutely the key for winning gold in that tournament. Another key thing was that he embraced a very offensive way of playing in that tournament, as he had very gifted players for doing it. He just simply is a mastermind in adapting to different kind of situations and making the right choices. I haven’t seen anything like that from Pennanen. He is just a very system stuck coach, who has a generally well working system, that is still even more based on playing boring safety hockey than Jalonen’s is. And as I said, Pennanen will always choose experienced safety players over super talented younger players.

Pennanen is the most boring coach I have ever seen with the biggest ego at the same time. The most irritating coach I have ever seen, in addition to the absolutely horribly irritating and boring coaches like Lauri Marjamäki and Paul Maurice. Each of them are just so irritating, as both coaches and how they are as public personalities.

Pennanen was part of Jalonen team, if you have watched any interviews with JJ he doesn't actually work like a dictator. They are responsible for team tactics and scouting together. They make decisions together although Jalonen has the final word as a head coach. Last WHC and one before that Jalonen team struggled with exactly the same things than this team, opponent is pressing and not giving space at all but eventually we managed to win. Now it just looks worse because these players are younger and also opponent play with even higher energy.

Pennanen didn't have talent like Pulju, Aho and Kakko to choose from. Kiviharju is the only "supertalent".

Basically Pennanen and Jalonen both are responsible for developing this game structure and they don't really have many fundamental differences as coaches. I don't know what happens in the locker room or how they prepare their teams, but Pennanen is his apprentice so i don't know how Jalonen can be god and Pennanen trash especially since we are getting results yet again.

 

[Ippenator]

Pennanen was part of Jalonen team, if you have watched any interviews with JJ he doesn't actually work like a dictator. They are responsible for team tactics and scouting together. They make decisions together although Jalonen has the final word as a head coach. Last WHC and one before that Jalonen team struggled with exactly the same things than this team, opponent is pressing and not giving space at all but eventually we managed to win. Now it just looks worse because these players are younger and also opponent play with even higher energy.

Pennanen didn't have talent like Pulju, Aho, Kakko and Pulju to choose from. Kiviharju is the only "supertalent".

Basically Pennanen and Jalonen both are responsible for developing this game structure and they don't really have many fundamental differences as coaches. I don't know what happens in the locker room or how they prepare their teams, but Pennanen is his apprentice so i don't know how Jalonen can be god and Pennanen trash especially since we are getting results yet again.

I know all that you wrote here. I have been following both of their careers as much as possible. Of course you can say that Pennanen is kind of a deciple of Jalonen. But still he is different from Jalonen. He is not a natural leader that Jalonen is. He is more stubborn and more stuck in his ways. And he absolutely is incapable of making courageous choices inside the games and also when choosing players for his teams.

Most experts were quite much criticizing Jalonen 1st about him giving the underager Aho the role of the center in the 2016 U20 WJC tournament, as Aho had almost no experience of playing as a center. Also most experts were thinking that the double underagers like Laine and Puljujärvi shouldn’t get a bigger role in the team, despite them being talented for their age. But Jalonen never trusted the public safety opinions, as he saw something more in those kids already then.

It’s revisionist history to say now that they were so exceptionally talented players. Still most coaches wouldn’t have given the roles and ice time that they got then from Jalonen. And I’m absolutely sure that Pennanen at least would have never played Aho as a center and that kid line as his 1st or 2nd line. He didn’t even choose Kiviharju to this team now, which I’m absolutely sure that Jalonen would have done, if he was coaching this team now.

Of course there are some similarities between Jalonen and Pennanen for sure (mostly with their basic playbook, but that’s where it pretty much ends), but with the key things there are still huge differences between them.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

He put Aho courageously to play as the center as an underager although he didn’t even have much of experience of playing as a center before that, and he gave Aho’s line huge amount of ice time and trusted them in almost any situation

I remember disliking the Laine - Aho - Pulju line. Why leave Aho in the middle of two inexperienced players? it's not like he's some kinda future #1C. Why not seperate Laine and Pulju so they can even out the scoring, they won't fit stylistically and that line will be atrocious defensively.

Yea... can't say that aged well.

 

[karhukissa]

I know all that you wrote here. I have been following both of their careers as much as possible. Of course you can say that Pennanen is kind of a deciple of Jalonen. But still he is different from Jalonen. He is not a natural leader that Jalonen is. He is more stubborn and more stuck in his ways. And he absolutely is incapable of making courageous choices inside the games and also when choosing players for his teams.

Most experts were quite much criticizing Jalonen 1st about him giving the underager Aho the role of the center in the 2016 U20 WJC tournament, as Aho had almost no experience of playing as a center. Also most experts were thinking that the double underagers like Laine and Puljujärvi shouldn’t get a bigger role in the team, despite them being talented for their age. But Jalonen never trusted the public safety opinions, as he saw something more in those kids already then.

It’s revisionist history to say now that they were so exceptionally talented players. Still most coaches wouldn’t have given the roles and ice time that they got then from Jalonen. And I’m absolutely sure that Pennanen at least would have never played Aho as a center and that kid line as his 1st or 2nd line. He didn’t even choose Kiviharju to this team now, which I’m absolutey sure that Jalonen would have done, if he was coaching this team now.

Of course there are some similarities between Jalonen and Pennanen for sure (mostly with their basic playbook, but that’s where it pretty much ends), but with the key things there are still huge differences between them.

Many good points. But i can see similarities again, both are really building their teams around the players which they think are absolutely suitable for roles required of their hockey. Jalonen has gotten heat many times because of his choices, starting from leaving Jussi Jokinen out of Vancouver Olympics. Pennanen and Jalonen are still working together, not only because they are friends but because other is U20 coach and other adult teams. If Pennanen was this egomaniac what people say, don't you think Jalonen would intervene with his choices and put him down to earth? I am 100% sure that Pennanen has consulted Jalonen million times regarding selections aswell.

These are always risks, Jalonen is amazing coach but he's not a fortune teller. He chooses players he believes are able to get the best results, and then it comes down to luck and right circumstances combined with that structure.

I can understand why Pennanen left Kiviharju out, there's no need to rush him and this team is very tight together. It's their time to play now, Kiviharju will get many chances. And we play in the final, without Kiviharju or not.