Post-Game Talk: 2022 NHL Playoffs - Stanley Cup Final: Tampa Bay Lightning vs. Colorado Avalanche | 2-4 LOSS

Felonious Python

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What could TB get for Sergachev and/or Killorn + a 1st?

Philly wants to go for it every year. Sergachev for Konecny?
 

Fabiobest

Italian Florida Man
Feb 4, 2017
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Killorn isn't going to get that big of a return. We'd be lucky to get a late 1st, or 2nd.

We don't need a McDavid level talent, we have that already (not at his level, but we have superstars). Issue is they are getting old, Hedman hasn't looked right for 2 years now.

We need depth again who can actually score. Look at our B2B and Pittsburgh B2B. Best 3rd lines in the league who could finish. We barely have 3 players who are scoring right now or this entire run.

Our D as a whole has looked terrible most of the playoffs
Killorn for a laste first rounder would be a good deal.
Yup, we need to improve our depth, I agree. We need to find guys like Gourde and Coleman.
I'm sure that JBB will know what to do
 

Stammertime91

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With regards to Cirelli, I stand by my points I made early in the season. He's a good center to fill in for your 2nd line hut if you need to depend on him, he is not the solution. He has one move in his kit and apart from that, he's a defensive minded forward. He's good but he's not 2C worthy cause you actually have to score from time to time.

And people that think he was the 2C last time... save yourself the time and check his TOI and Gourdes. Gourdes "3rd line" was essentially a 2A/2B situation. We didn't really have a third line...

Cirelli brings pretty much nothing to the table Colton doesn't offensively. Where cirelli makes his money and has his best outings is defensively. That's great, but to pay this guy anything more than 4.2-4.5 will be sad.

The guy is invisible for stretches of the game. Sure having to bring killorn with you everywhere sucks but he's been horrible.
 

DaBolts

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Feb 3, 2015
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What could TB get for Sergachev and/or Killorn + a 1st?

Philly wants to go for it every year. Sergachev for Konecny?
Killorn has a 16 team no trade list. I'd shop him. Serge we could get more for so shopping him has to be done right before the draft and to a teams that has an asset we would need. Cirelli is a more interesting prospect to trade as is Hagel or Colton.
 

CupsOverCash

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Jun 16, 2009
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It definitely looks over but damn let's get the next game and turn it around a bit. That was brutal though. They just look way faster and able to do all that we can but let's see what we can do at home.
 

DFC

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I don't think we can move Sergachev, even as much as I often toy with the idea. And if we did move him, I would rather pump his tires first -- give him half a season of 1st unit duty, get him on a 50 or 60 point pace, and then make the move. Trading him as an offense-first defenseman who fails to crack 0.5 ppg more often than not is not making the best use of the asset, IMO.

I do think we will explore shopping Killorn. Not because I don't like him or I think he's played poorly. I think he's been charged with tough defensive assignments and, for the most part, he's gotten them done. But he's an aging winger who doesn't make us a faster team, and his goal-scoring ability, reputation, and contract gives him some good value. I think we could get a pretty decent return from a team like Edmonton, looking to add depth-scoring and grit.

I have a feeling we will try hard to keep Palat. He's Cooper's guy.
 

Antiramie

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Mar 25, 2011
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We're not trading Hagel @ 1.5 x 2 with the limited time he's been here and the picks we gave up for him.

Killorn and Maroon should both get shipped.

We're going to try to re-sign Palat. It's just a matter of whether he'd consider coming back for less than other teams will pay him.

Paul is a must re-sign.

I would shop both Cirelli and Serg and see what we could get for them. If the price is right, both are expendable.
 
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Fabiobest

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I'm curious to see how much Nick Paul will ask for.

Killorn and Cirelli with a combined 1 goal in 19 playoff games this year.

1 goal.
That's simply ridicolous and that's one of the reasons why, this post season, we are playing with fire.
Their lack of goals is not acceptable.
Ok that they are not paid to score the same amount of goals of Kuch.
But come on...
 

DFC

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Killorn and Cirelli with a combined 1 goal in 19 playoff games this year.

1 goal.
True, but Cirelli in particular is a key reason we won the Toronto and NYR series. I think for as much as we get on him for not scoring goals, we also have to give him credit for all the goals Matthews and Marner DIDN'T score the second Cirelli was handed the assignment.

This is the first post-season where I've been satisfied with Cirelli. Some offense would be nice, but he has gone above and beyond defensively, and kept our biggest opposing threats off the score-sheet. Even right now, it's not MacKinnon who's killing us. It's the rest of the Aves' team.
 

Antiramie

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True, but Cirelli in particular is a key reason we won the Toronto and NYR series. I think for as much as we get on him for not scoring goals, we also have to give him credit for all the goals Matthews and Marner DIDN'T score the second Cirelli was handed the assignment.

This is the first post-season where I've been satisfied with Cirelli. Some offense would be nice, but he has gone above and beyond defensively, and kept our biggest opposing threats off the score-sheet. Even right now, it's not MacKinnon who's killing us. It's the rest of the Aves' team.

I dunno about you, but I'd expect a guy making $5M to be better than neutral in the +/- department for his playoff career and not have his ES PP60 fall off a cliff during the playoffs too.

IMO he's a 3rd line center that we're paying 2nd line money for.
 

Stammertime91

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True, but Cirelli in particular is a key reason we won the Toronto and NYR series. I think for as much as we get on him for not scoring goals, we also have to give him credit for all the goals Matthews and Marner DIDN'T score the second Cirelli was handed the assignment.

This is the first post-season where I've been satisfied with Cirelli. Some offense would be nice, but he has gone above and beyond defensively, and kept our biggest opposing threats off the score-sheet. Even right now, it's not MacKinnon who's killing us. It's the rest of the Aves' team.
I agree but even 1 goal is still unacceptable. We are sort of just relying on 3C capabilities while no 2C (scoring department) capabilities are present.

He's a tweener in my opinion for like 2.5C. Great 3C, but not the 2C you need to score goals. Look at Kadri. That's the 2C on a possible cup winning team. We got by the last two years cause Gourde and Cirelli were hounds and chipped in on each of their lines, making themselves useful at both ends.

The Point injury definitely hurt us if the plan was Point, Stamkos and Cirelli down the middle, but still, 1 goal is not good enough. It's not like he hasn't had looks. That rangers series for him was awful offensively given the chances.
 

Antiramie

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To be fair Cirelli regularly finishes top-5 in Selke voting. His offense is just nonexistent.

And he's -2 so far in this series. If the Avs are who everyone has to knock off the mountain going forward, Cirelli-type players are gonna be dinosaurs quick.

I know that’s an exaggeration, but I wonder, if Colorado steam rolls us, if that’s gonna start an offensive arms race/sea change within the league.
 

Stammertime91

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And he's -2 so far in this series. If the Avs are who everyone has to knock off the mountain going forward, Cirelli-type players are gonna be dinosaurs quick.

I know that’s an exaggeration, but I wonder, if Colorado steam rolls us, if that’s gonna start an offensive arms race/sea change within the league.
We just beat one of those with a goaltender that's better than Kuemper in Florida. The difference is their defense are miles apart. Loading up for the sake of loading up spells disaster. Colorado's scouting, Sakic, etc has done magnificent in building a fast team that is highly skilled. Taking a flier on Nichushkin and helping him along the way has created a very good player. Makar, Rantanen, Landeskog, and MacK were all draft picks, high ones too. Toews was a steal. It's not like they're just forward heavy without a backend. They are there and they can play on both ends.

I don't think it changes the game but if you're a GM you have to take notes and see how your team stacks up against the winner. Every GM does it. As it stands right now, with Point not being 100%, there is a glaring hole at 2C that Cirelli cannot fill on his own. Can't. Very good defensively and Selke top 5, but you need goal scorers in your top 6. Killorn and Cirelli don't need to be Bergeron and Hossa, but for crying out loud, one goal? Maroon has 3.

As for our defense, I think we have seen a legitimate cause for concern going forward. I get Sergachev is young and McD has been a rock back there, getting CS votes, but it wouldn't surprise me at the end of next year to see one moved.
 

DFC

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I agree but even 1 goal is still unacceptable. We are sort of just relying on 3C capabilities while no 2C (scoring department) capabilities are present.

He's a tweener in my opinion for like 2.5C. Great 3C, but not the 2C you need to score goals. Look at Kadri. That's the 2C on a possible cup winning team. We got by the last two years cause Gourde and Cirelli were hounds and chipped in on each of their lines, making themselves useful at both ends.

The Point injury definitely hurt us if the plan was Point, Stamkos and Cirelli down the middle, but still, 1 goal is not good enough. It's not like he hasn't had looks. That rangers series for him was awful offensively given the chances.
I agree for the most part, although Colorado can't reeeeaaally afford Kadri as a 2C.

Cirelli is an elite 3C in my opinion, and he's making about the right money for that. I don't like him as a 2C -- would rather have Stamkos, Point, and Cirelli down the middle.

Maaaybe one option would be to reunite him with Point as a shutdown pair for the time being, which is what was so effective vs. Toronto. Maybe the current version of Point isn't capable of creating much 5v5 offense, but I like his chances better than Killorn or Hagel's.

We just beat one of those with a goaltender that's better than Kuemper in Florida. The difference is their defense are miles apart. Loading up for the sake of loading up spells disaster. Colorado's scouting, Sakic, etc has done magnificent in building a fast team that is highly skilled. Taking a flier on Nichushkin and helping him along the way has created a very good player. Makar, Rantanen, Landeskog, and MacK were all draft picks, high ones too. Toews was a steal. It's not like they're just forward heavy without a backend. They are there and they can play on both ends.

I don't think it changes the game but if you're a GM you have to take notes and see how your team stacks up against the winner. Every GM does it. As it stands right now, with Point not being 100%, there is a glaring hole at 2C that Cirelli cannot fill on his own. Can't. Very good defensively and Selke top 5, but you need goal scorers in your top 6. Killorn and Cirelli don't need to be Bergeron and Hossa, but for crying out loud, one goal? Maroon has 3.

As for our defense, I think we have seen a legitimate cause for concern going forward. I get Sergachev is young and McD has been a rock back there, getting CS votes, but it wouldn't surprise me at the end of next year to see one moved.
I think it's simply a matter of we doubled down on size, rather than speed, and we are a lot, a LOT, slower than in the last two runs. Literally the top-4 fastest guys (Point is at 80% by my eye, Gourde, Joseph, Johnson) are gone (or injured in Point's case). That's literally the fastest guy on all four lines gone or limited.
 
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Stammertime91

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I agree for the most part, although Colorado can't reeeeaaally afford Kadri as a 2C.

Cirelli is an elite 3C in my opinion, and he's making about the right money for that. I don't like him as a 2C -- would rather have Stamkos, Point, and Cirelli down the middle.

Maaaybe one option would be to reunite him with Point as a shutdown pair for the time being, which is what was so effective vs. Toronto. Maybe the current version of Point isn't capable of creating much 5v5 offense, but I like his chances better than Killorn or Hagel's.
That's true but I'm speaking more from the perspective of a depth chart being aligned correctly. He has the capability. Compher makes 3.5M, had a comparable regular season to Cirelli with less TOI, and better numbers in the postseason. Signed through the end of next season. He's a few years older, but that to me is the ideal 3C. Cirelli is an elite 3C and I think the Point injury probably hurt what Cooper would've preferred down the center. Cirelli just isn't that guy with the puck. Without it, great, but with it he's like a toddler at times. One trick pony in tight as well. He's already at 4.8M. I thought he was a littler lower actually... he's most definitely going to be at the 5M range... that is pricey for a third line center.

Point when healthy shut down the Bergeron line in 2018. That was earlier in his career but he can do it. It's not like we don't have other capable forwards. I just don't see Cirelli being this untouchable, young player with an aura around him that if he doesn't dress, we don't win. No. He's important but you mold his types. You don't mold the higher end players.

Putting him with Point might be alright if they skate. I don't think anything will work man. I know we are all probably deflated thinking of what we just saw last night but Colorado looked like they were on 4x speed and we were in slow motion. It felt like we touched the puck rarely. It was like a D2 school vs a pro team out there.
 

Stammertime91

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@DFC

Because this site is tragic it doubled your one post... yeah I agree. Our speed is a big problem.

The 4th line hasn't been a disaster as they played fairly well last night but that "step" they've lost in speed is basically granted to the opponent if it's not an offensive zone draw. They cant catch up. Too slow to forecheck really. Another one you didn't mention is Coleman. He had some speed too and scored some goals. The "speed" We brought in with Hagel can't score unless it's an empty net. Paul has done well but I feel he would need to be given a certain role/establish chemistry to shine. Killorn is a placeholder for him I feel. At least, I hope.
 
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Felonious Python

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I don't think we can move Sergachev, even as much as I often toy with the idea. And if we did move him, I would rather pump his tires first -- give him half a season of 1st unit duty, get him on a 50 or 60 point pace, and then make the move. Trading him as an offense-first defenseman who fails to crack 0.5 ppg more often than not is not making the best use of the asset, IMO.

I do think we will explore shopping Killorn. Not because I don't like him or I think he's played poorly. I think he's been charged with tough defensive assignments and, for the most part, he's gotten them done. But he's an aging winger who doesn't make us a faster team, and his goal-scoring ability, reputation, and contract gives him some good value. I think we could get a pretty decent return from a team like Edmonton, looking to add depth-scoring and grit.

I have a feeling we will try hard to keep Palat. He's Cooper's guy.
Edmonton also has a new-ish coach that may want certain changes.

I'm not sure what Edmonton can really offer, if their need is depth scoring and grit. Maybe like Foegele or Poolparty.

Foegele was on that 2017 Erie Otters team with Cirelli, Cernak, the Raddysh brothers, Owen Headrick (who got a PTO from Syracuse), Alex DeBrincat, etc.
 
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Winnipegger1

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It definitely looks over but damn let's get the next game and turn it around a bit. That was brutal though. They just look way faster and able to do all that we can but let's see what we can do at home.
Colorado only had 5 more wins during the regular season and 9 more points. The two teams are pretty evenly matched. The Bolts don't seem to run up the score or kill themselves if the game is out of reach. Colorado runs up the score but they might need some of those goals in the next 2 games.
 

DMB06

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True, but Cirelli in particular is a key reason we won the Toronto and NYR series. I think for as much as we get on him for not scoring goals, we also have to give him credit for all the goals Matthews and Marner DIDN'T score the second Cirelli was handed the assignment.

This is the first post-season where I've been satisfied with Cirelli. Some offense would be nice, but he has gone above and beyond defensively, and kept our biggest opposing threats off the score-sheet. Even right now, it's not MacKinnon who's killing us. It's the rest of the Aves' team.

If not for two unexpected goals from Sergachev the NY series may have ended very differently. Cirelli's line got so many grade A chances and finished none of them. We were essentially bailed out by a guy, Sergachev, that isn't expected to score and 9 times out of 10 we lose that game. I'm all for defense but we need to find guys who are good at it but also have the ability to score. I think Cooper realized this in game 2 with breaking up that line, they weren't doing enough defensively and Coop sees what we all see, they can't finish either.

I'm all for shipping Cirelli/Killorn out this offseason, especially if it means we keep Palat and Paul.
 

Winnipegger1

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The Bolts usually beat the other team to the puck and rub them off the boards and get control but they're a step behind. Bolts have played almost 100 games this year. So has Colorado but we'll see which team has the most motivation. That's a hell of a lot of games. The owners are happy. If Colorado played like that every game they wouldn't have lost a game during the regular season. If Bolts played that way they may not have won a game during the regular season. Expect the unexpected.
 
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bov

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I won't doubt this team until someone else lifts the cup. Just like the Rangers series, it's not like we're playing well and it just isn't enough...we flat out aren't anywhere near the normal standard. And I'm talking entirely aside from what Colorado is doing.

I expect Vasilesvkiy to give everything he has in game 3. Colorado will go for the jugular and I believe he can redeem himself.

Point should not be playing. He can't bear down at either end of the rink. Call it a day and get Nash back in there, we need 12 forwards who can empty the tank however limited their role may be.

Not an ideal situation but I'm not giving up hope. 1 win and we have ourselves a series.
 

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